54 replies to this topic

[RussianWolf]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 June 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

no, you said I should try it. I said I do, My YLW is stock. I use it on SMM, but also on normal drops. The precipitous decline in speed is not to my liking, but it makes me a more thoughtful player.

Ah... reading too fast.

Yeah, I like my YLW to be more speedy. I also swapped the 2MLs for and ERLL

[Zerberus]

RussianWolf, on 06 June 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

I will chime in on this a bit.

Lately I'be been grinding chassis, the faster I can buy them the better so no upgrades. No DHS, no engine changes. The only changes I've made to a mech recently is pulling the Flamers off a firestarter and replacing them with SLs so that I could fire for more than 2 seconds.

I'm running 14 mechs right now from all weight classes and 8 of them are bone stock. I'm running them in the public queue. Its actually fun. But it does make you think about heat management and fire control a lot more. It actually makes this a "Thinking Man's FPS"

Everyone should be trying to do this. It can only make you a better player.

I agree 100%, nothing more fun than taking a box stock hunchback out for a ride, getting laughed at, and then tearing people apart.

[C E Dwyer]

I own every mech currently in the game, I'm 4 shadow hawks, 1 wolverine and the BJ-A away from 1/1 mastering them all (BTW where my achievement badge PGI ).

At no point has SHS ruined my experience, the founders mechs started with SHS, only very few hero's started with DHS.

Trial mechs now are champion builds with DHS all of them, this wasn't, the case until about a year ago.

DHS is only grinding an extra 1.5 million

Moaning about grinding for DHs, can't wait to see whats said about grinding for a big XL engine, I don't swap my engines, so every mech that has a 300xl i've ground out credits for it

So bottom line is your saying new users shouldn't have to grind credits, for equipement that everyone before you joined has had to do, many of them, with far less advantages, than new users have now ?

Edited by Cathy, 06 June 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[oneproduct]

Cathy, on 06 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

So bottom line is your saying new users shouldn't have to grind credits, for equipement that everyone before you joined has had to do, many of them, with far less advantages, than new users have now ?

Yes, and he'd be right. Mandatory upgrades should not be presented as optional upgrades, and in a world where your enemies can equip DHS (i.e. not stock matches), the DHS upgrades is mandatory (and hush about the few builds like double gauss that don't use heat).

It's unfortunate for those people who already had to buy them, but for the health of the game every mech should start with double heat sinks unless they start giving single heat sinks some actual purpose to exist.

Edited by oneproduct, 06 June 2014 - 09:33 AM.

[Prezimonto]

I wish they had a stock only 3020 queue, with loaners, queue that all players had to compete in for the first 25 matchs.

Let everyone take on any mech they want, stock. Try it on for size, stomp on other people, learn some fire discipline, earn the cadet bonus, and THEN open up customization and the store.

More players would have a better idea what kind of mech they want to pilot. More players would actually learn how to pilot a big stompy robot, before being tossed to the sharks of the meta scene. And those of us with a hankering for good old fashioned battletech would have a place to play as well, all the time.

Cathy, on 06 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

I own every mech currently in the game, I'm 4 shadow hawks, 1 wolverine and the BJ-A away from 1/1 mastering them all (BTW where my achievement badge PGI ).

At no point has SHS ruined my experience, the founders mechs started with SHS, only very few hero's started with DHS.

Trial mechs now are champion builds with DHS all of them, this wasn't, the case until about a year ago.

DHS is only grinding an extra 1.5 million

Moaning about grinding for DHs, can't wait to see whats said about grinding for a big XL engine, I don't swap my engines, so every mech that has a 300xl i've ground out credits for it

So bottom line is your saying new users shouldn't have to grind credits, for equipement that everyone before you joined has had to do, many of them, with far less advantages, than new users have now ?

So we're taking the, "I had to do it, now you do too!" approach? That's just bad logic, appeal to tradition. That kind of thinking is what keeps hazing around well after it shouldn't exist.

The fact is, the new player experience in this game is abysmal. This leads to fewer people staying that would otherwise, and drive down the overall population.

There are better ways to introduce new players than give then the **** end of tech, a bad grind, and fail matchmaking.

Edited by Prezimonto, 06 June 2014 - 09:43 AM.

[Prezimonto]

double post

Edited by Prezimonto, 06 June 2014 - 09:44 AM.

[zolop]

Solahma, on 06 June 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

If we had more objective play instead of the common "slaughter the other team until only one remains" from 90% of games... even on conquest...

Would be less of a concern at that point. Also, if role-warfare actually had real in-game objectives and rewards instead of everything being based on kills and damage...

This is exactly the problem with this game, we need the game engine Crysis/MWO to do dynamic missions on a larger scale. Destroy an objective non PC object, then escort a AI object to location. Imagine the fun it would be if in one mission we could perform more than just a few roles and had a dynamic mission based on the outcome of the first few goals. We have skirmish so the people that want a nearly mindless team deathmatch have that option.

I think the cost of double heat sink upgrades should depend on the tonnage of the mech with a max of 1.5 mil cbills. Though I would like repair and refit to come back with a much bigger c_bill reward per mission objectives. Joining a IS or Clan house should lower the cost of repair refit, but I don't think loyality points are going to be added to next year (yes they are being tracked now, but will be wiped once they are fully introduced). Playing again to see if much changed from when I last stopped playing MWO, but wanted to agree with the quote above (MWO still has this problem even with UI.2.0).

[RussianWolf]

oneproduct, on 06 June 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Yes, and he'd be right. Mandatory upgrades should not be presented as optional upgrades, and in a world where your enemies can equip DHS (i.e. not stock matches), the DHS upgrades is mandatory (and hush about the few builds like double gauss that don't use heat).

It's unfortunate for those people who already had to buy them, but for the health of the game every mech should start with double heat sinks unless they start giving single heat sinks some actual purpose to exist.

As said, They are not mandatory. Stock mechs are perfectly viable in the public queue right now. Harder to play, yes. But its good learning experience.

And if you really want DHS on that new shiney, then use the trial mechs for another 15-20 matches and grind the cbills for it. No one said you have to grind the cbills in the mech you want to upgrade.

When I want to grind cbills just for cbills, I take out my Misery. Why, because its a cbill factory. Hard to kill and can dish out the hurt. You now get the option of a dozen fully modded mechs as trials, successful mechs. Use them.

Right now I'm grinding cbills but also xp on the new mechs. so I have to play better to get better payouts. Its harder, but also more of a challenge and more fun.

Edited by RussianWolf, 06 June 2014 - 09:52 AM.

[Prezimonto]

I would like to add to the idea above about a stock only queue:

Give cadet's their bonus and earnings, properly, over the first 25 matches and everyone else low, but regular rewards. I'd probably never the main game again, though I like mech customization, because the stock 3020 queue would still be more fun.

Maybe my outlook with change with clan tech, but I doubt it. Frankenmechs, as excited as I was for them two years ago, actually aren't fun because they bork the general balance of the game.

[MisterPlanetarian]

I'd remove DHS, buff SHS slightly and just reduce heat generation quite a bit. High dissipation only encourages sloppy aim and ammo waste. If you had a slower and steadier heat buildup but equally slow dissapation you'd find that people mind when they shoot stuff.


Edit: I'd also let people drop with stock configs on ALL mechs, including heroes, in the testing grounds. That way you can not only familiarize yourself with what you have to work with when you first buy the mech you're eyeing up which sould make the transition from trial to brand new mech less painful.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 06 June 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[RussianWolf]

zolop, on 06 June 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

We have skirmish so the people that want a nearly mindless team deathmatch have that option.

The Dred Pirate Roberts takes no prisoners

https://www.youtube....zO-sv0mtZ4#t=45

That was supposed to start at 45 seconds......

Edited by RussianWolf, 06 June 2014 - 10:01 AM.

[Azakael]

zolop, on 06 June 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

I think the cost of double heat sink upgrades should depend on the tonnage of the mech with a max of 1.5 mil cbills. Though I would like repair and refit to come back with a much bigger c_bill reward per mission objectives. Joining a IS or Clan house should lower the cost of repair refit, but I don't think loyality points are going to be added to next year (yes they are being tracked now, but will be wiped once they are fully introduced). Playing again to see if much changed from when I last stopped playing MWO, but wanted to agree with the quote above (MWO still has this problem even with UI.2.0).

I disagree with the tonnage of the mech affecting the value of upgrading to DHS. After all, you're upgrading the same number of base heat sinks - 10. I do think that it should be closer to the value of 10 double heat sinks. Not ten times the cost + 300,000 c-bills. I'd say 500,000 + cost of the sinks - defrayed if you already have 10 in your inventory. (I'd also allow equipment to be purchased without the need to equip it to a mech...)

As for fixing sinks, I think that capacity should be based on the number of total sinks, with dissipation being based on the strength of all the sinks. (I.E. 10 tons of Double Heat Sinks with the 1.4 dissipation would have the same dissipation speed as 14 single heat sinks, but because there are more singles, capacity is larger. So now it's a question of which is more important to you, the weight, space or capacity?)

Edit, or a crazy anti-ghost heat idea... for every (x) sinks per weapon, reduce the ghost heat by (n)...

Edited by Azakael, 06 June 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[Jeb]

Part of the problem is the Cbill grind... it's very very slow... Sure people can post how much they make on average per match, but I can pretty much guess they are in a proper built mech with elite skills, and probably arti and air strikes when it's a large amount... or they are very skilled and get lots of kills, assists and tons of damage done...

New players are at a lot of disadvantages to others when they buy most stock mechs...
1) upgrades... not just DHS, but engines (don't get me started on the cost of XL engines...), endo, weapons etc.. I find when buying a new mech, I try to have almost 2x the cost of the mech on hand to make sure I can do all the upgrades I want (and more then that if I want an XL engine)... Yes new players can play stock, but stock makes it harder. Yes new players can play trial mechs, but that is skill points wasted if they don't plan on buying the mech later which brings us to the next disadvantage...

2) skills... even if you get the upgrades done to a mech, your only able to unlock the basic skills... until you buy two more variants and unlock those elite skills (which also give you a bonus to your basic skills) your at a disadvantage to the others your playing against. If your going to spend a lot of time in those two other variants, your probably also going to want to upgrade them as well, meaning even more cbills...

3) consumables... even if you spend the cbills on them, you probably do not have them upgraded, so cool shots, arti etc do not work as well... odds are though if your new, your tight on cbills and not using them at all as your saving every single cbill for upgrades or a variant to help with the first two disadvantages...

4) Players Abilities... new players are still learning the game. They are going to make mistakes, they are not going to have the best aim, they are not going to know the map choke points and death traps, they are not going to know every mech they are going against and it's weaknesses, they are not going to be good at spreading dmg buy jumping/twisting... all those types of things come with time playing the game. This also means though your typical new player is not getting many kills, assists or dmg per match... they are probably spending a lot of time dead and frustrated, and that means very few cbills per match to do those upgrades, or buy variants to unlock skills...


If the cbill grind wasn't so slow, it wouldn't feel like it takes forever to get past some of those disadvantages and starting out would be a lot less frustrating I think... yes the cadet bonus helps, but it also gives the new player a false sense of the cbill grind... Once you spend that, if you don't spend it wisely (which new players don't know the best way to spend it in a lot of cases, and they are just excited to get to own their first mech) it goes fast and your stuck with mechs that feel like they are working with paper armor, and overheat every few shots and that just makes a very frustrating game...

[wanderer]

John1352, on 06 June 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

I started playing this game a couple of weeks ago, and it is a lot of fun, but there is one really painful problem for me: Standard heat sinks.

The only reason SHS exist as it stands is because stock designs would not work, otherwise. PGI managed to mangle the heat system horribly- not only SHS but DHS as well, but DHS are the "standard". Given, 3050+ DHS rapidly replace SHS in almost every model of 'Mech, but most 3050-era designs were produced back in the Succession Wars where DHS were lost technology. It's sorta like having to upgrade WWI tanks to fight in WWII.

Yes, this means most (but not all) chassis effectively pay 1.5 million extra for the essentials.

[General Taskeen]

@John1352

You nailed the issue on the head by what you stated (heat capacity and doubled elite skills, further exacerbating the issue). However, I would not expect a response from a Dev since the main designer behind it said its "good" the way it is. Its a long-standing issue ever since the Closed Beta and we told them over and over again to fix or change it.

So while the Mech you bought (which is a "Stock" configuration or "Lore" Design often used in BattleTech) has a certain amount of heatsinks, the underlying code determines how often you can fire based on that number of heatsinks.

To top this off, PGI added no separate mode for that initial unmodified 'Mech you bought - Also known as "Stock Mode" from MechWarrior 3 or MechWarrior 4 where it was not possible to modify the base design (you used what it came with). Traditionally, "Stock Mechs" with SHS in Battletech were built (most of the time) to handle a specific loadout and did not build up heat very fast as they do in this game, except for very specific Mechs and variants that were built with flaws on purpose (Rifleman-3N, Stalker-5S).

Likewise, some DHS Stocks in BattleTech are built to handle a specific loadout (usually heat intensive loadouts). If you were to pit a DRG-1N (SHS) against a DRG-5K (DHS) in TT, neither are really going to overheat that easily.


*Shrug* PGI done gone messed up. So if you're looking for slightly more balanced fun, join the growing Stock Mech community. There are now 3 major events during the week for it. At least there you can expect SHS vs SHS combat on slightly equal footing.

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 June 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

wanderer, on 06 June 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

The only reason SHS exist as it stands is because stock designs would not work, otherwise. PGI managed to mangle the heat system horribly- not only SHS but DHS as well, but DHS are the "standard". Given, 3050+ DHS rapidly replace SHS in almost every model of 'Mech, but most 3050-era designs were produced back in the Succession Wars where DHS were lost technology. It's sorta like having to upgrade WWI tanks to fight in WWII.

Yes, this means most (but not all) chassis effectively pay 1.5 million extra for the essentials.

SHS actualyl work very well. SMM we prove that all the time. Much better paced, more tactical matches.

DHS are what have never worked, in TT or MW Games, because their "tradeoffs" are so laughable, that once available, they are indeed a "mandatory" upgrade, as with all other things equal, the mech with DHS is many times more capable than without. 1 good stock DHS mech can pretty well annihilate a Lance of SHS mech in MWO, and truth be told, with a few rare exception (Gauss and Ballistic based mechs, mostly) in TT, also.

Nothing broke Btech and MW like DHS. Not XL engines, nothing. And then the Clans came with their uber.light, long range weapons and DHS, and it was pretty much game over.

[MisterPlanetarian]

Making the initial DHS upgrade scale with weight up to 1.5 mil is a good idea as long as unit costs on the heat sinks themselves stay where they are.

[wanderer]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 June 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

Nothing broke Btech and MW like DHS. Not XL engines, nothing. And then the Clans came with their uber.light, long range weapons and DHS, and it was pretty much game over.

Ironically enough, DHS were put into the game to speed things up for regular play, since DHS designs naturally shot each other faster and more often with bigger guns.

It worked, much as it does for MWO.

[Scratx]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 June 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

SHS actualyl work very well. SMM we prove that all the time. Much better paced, more tactical matches.

DHS are what have never worked, in TT or MW Games, because their "tradeoffs" are so laughable, that once available, they are indeed a "mandatory" upgrade, as with all other things equal, the mech with DHS is many times more capable than without. 1 good stock DHS mech can pretty well annihilate a Lance of SHS mech in MWO, and truth be told, with a few rare exception (Gauss and Ballistic based mechs, mostly) in TT, also.

Nothing broke Btech and MW like DHS. Not XL engines, nothing. And then the Clans came with their uber.light, long range weapons and DHS, and it was pretty much game over.

Which is why the best way to unbreak things, since DHS isn't going away, is to buff SHS in some way to bridge that chasm part-way.

I'm yet to hear anyone argue against that. DHS can remain a straight upgrade in 90+% of situations, just let SHS mechs not be completely overshadowed...

(I suggested earlier on the thread one way to buff them)

[Bishop Steiner]

Scratx, on 06 June 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

Which is why the best way to unbreak things, since DHS isn't going away, is to buff SHS in some way to bridge that chasm part-way.

I'm yet to hear anyone argue against that. DHS can remain a straight upgrade in 90+% of situations, just let SHS mechs not be completely overshadowed...

(I suggested earlier on the thread one way to buff them)

the issue is, I have yet to see a good way to buff SHS added. If you want the real truth, I feel ALL DHS should be nerfed to 1.4, and then have the Cooldowns extended throughout the weapons, in particular for PP-FLD weapons. And probably still need to have the heat cap reduced, so that DHS sole advantage is dissipation. (although despite the advocates to the contrary that is NOT how it worked in TT)

I didn't actually realize how ridiculously out of sync DHS were with the core Btech game, until playing SMM, and it made me sit back and do some real thinking.

The only time Btech was ever balanced, was the old pre-Clan Tier 1 Tech era, with no DHS, XL Engines, Endo, Gauss, etc, OR the FedCom Civil War era where EVERYTHING was upgraded to DHS and such. Trying to Balance the two against each other is like trying to balance a Korean or Vietnam War era MilSim vs a Modern One. It just doesn't work. But you play Korean War v Korean War, or Modern v Modern, and it's a ton of fun.

The only balancer that Btech/ MW had for the tech difference was using RnR and Battle Value (which was never very effective either, TBH) to balance number and weigh of the advanced unit vs the obsolete one. And for a myriad of reasons, PGI will not/cannot allow the numeric disparity to help balance things, and that only would work with Clan v IS anyhow, not tier 1 IS vs Tier 2 IS.

And TBH, as a selfish SMM guy, I like the pace where it's at. If I want speeded up , I will play titanfall or hawken. (Though this is a matter of opinion, and not being used to recommend balancing)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 June 2014 - 11:19 AM.