147 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

JJ heat should be like a flamer: the longer you hold it, the quicker the heat builds up.

JJ thrust (height/accel) should be dependent upon the number of jump jets, with a single jump jet giving exponential thrust. This means that one jump jet gives you X thrust, two jump jets gives you X*X thrust, etc., or some similar compound effect (sorry, I'm on an iPad, so not sure how to make exponent notations in bbcode). This means you get little thrust from one jump jet, and every jump jet you add gives you more than the last.

What this means in game is that you will hold the JJs the same amount of time to get maximum height, regardless of how many JJs you equip, causing the same amount of heat in that time, but the more JJs you have equipped, the higher you will have reached in that time/heat. A Spider with six jump jets will have the same amount of heat in the same amount of time as one with one jump jet, but will have attained roughly six times the height. (Hope that makes sense)

[HUBA]

IMO it should the opposite way, more JJ less heat. Because then you have to decide spending into a JJ and gain more mobility or spend more tonnage and make them a bit cooler and a bit more effective. Otherwise there is no benefit in having more then one JJ.

something like (1+1/JJ)/10 would make a better balance then the linear function (JJ/10)
e.g. 1JJ = .2 Heat, 2JJ = .15 heat, 10JJ = .11 heat in stat of 1JJ = .1, 2JJ = .2, 10JJ = 1.0 Heat

Why? Because you can spent free tonnage in JJ or in HS. JJ gives you more mobility and HS can compensate the hotter JJ but still effective when you are not jumping.

[Cimarb]

HUBA, on 10 June 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

IMO it should the opposite way, more JJ less heat. Because then you have to decide spending into a JJ and gain more mobility or spend more tonnage and make them a bit cooler and a bit more effective. Otherwise there is no benefit in having more then one JJ.

something like (1+1/JJ)/10 would make a better balance then the linear function (JJ/10)
e.g. 1JJ = .2 Heat, 2JJ = .15 heat, 10JJ = .11 heat in stat of 1JJ = .1, 2JJ = .2, 10JJ = 1.0 Heat

Why? Because you can spent free tonnage in JJ or in HS. JJ gives you more mobility and HS can compensate the hotter JJ but still effective when you are not jumping.

To attain the same height, my system (explained just above your post) would give you result you want. More JJs with same height = less heat and quicker jump. More JJs with greater height = same heat in same time.

[Gorgo7]

Cimarb, on 10 June 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

To attain the same height, my system (explained just above your post) would give you result you want. More JJs with same height = less heat and quicker jump. More JJs with greater height = same heat in same time.

You nailed it.

[Karl Streiger]

OK while Pauls linear graph is horrible i tried to make some sense while there is non in this graph:
if the Class V JJs have 0.1 heat - and in the end of this graph its near the 1 - it means that
Class I have to generate 0.25 heat -

so in a graph that may tell something:



If and only if i have made my calculations right - 4 JJs Class I (HGN 733 or HM) generate 1 heat per second.
Same heat is dissipated by 10 SHS - not to mention the 10 DHS.
So at best heat already in the "Higlander" will only dissipate slower.
This fact given - you need much more heat generating for those heat sinks much more - so somewhat about 0.5 or even 1 HPS per Class V and 1.25 or even 5 HPS per Class I.
But there is still another problem.

I always did wonder why we have 5 classes of jumpjets although you only have 3 weights. Well reason is the Mech weight and the boost produced by those jump jets - if i understand it right - a Blackjack with 4 JJs must have a better range for its jump jets as a Wolverine with 4.

But with different "jump boosts" and different heat generated per class i analyzed the "boost" you get after 1 second of burn time:
Interesting - best heat boost efficiency for the Class III (Quickdraw -> Catapract) - i really did expected a graph with equal sized bars....


But where i would have expect different graphs on the first -the second is horrend. Given the heat and weight of those jump jets and compared them with the boost you earn - there is obvious a grave mis balance

[Tiamat of the Sea]

This doesn't seem like it'll apply fairly, with the heat varying based on jump jet class, but it might not be as bad as it looks to me currently. I'm willing to try it.

[HighTest]

I read this, and I just have to ask:

Does PGI/IGP REALLY think that this is what the game needs right now to be successful? Tinkering with Jump Jet heat? Really?

And ditto on the fall damage.

As in, NOT devoting thought and resources to things like Community Warfare (read: content), matchmaking (read: fair play), new user tutorials (read: accessibility), etc? Rather, that spending resources on re-working jump jet heat is going to be the solution to being in more new players and to bring back those that have already given up on the game?

Sure, JJ heat could have used some tweaking. And same for fall damage, which frankly has always been laughable. I get it, they need work - eventually. But to spend the time and effort to come up with something this convoluted and to code it into the game? When people are leaving in droves because they're bored to tears with running the same maps in 12 vs 12 over and over?

I've been playing this game for nearly 2 years, and don't get me wrong -- I love this game and the whole MW franchise. But I'm not getting a little tired of being a White Knight. So I have to ask -- IS THIS REALLY WHAT THIS GAME NEEDS RIGHT NOW?

I blame all of you people that bought gold Clan mechs for this.



OK. I feel better now. Thanks!

[Gattsus]

HighTest, on 11 June 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

I read this, and I just have to ask:

Does PGI/IGP REALLY think that this is what the game needs right now to be successful? Tinkering with Jump Jet heat? Really?

And ditto on the fall damage.

As in, NOT devoting thought and resources to things like Community Warfare (read: content), matchmaking (read: fair play), new user tutorials (read: accessibility), etc? Rather, that spending resources on re-working jump jet heat is going to be the solution to being in more new players and to bring back those that have already given up on the game?

Sure, JJ heat could have used some tweaking. And same for fall damage, which frankly has always been laughable. I get it, they need work - eventually. But to spend the time and effort to come up with something this convoluted and to code it into the game? When people are leaving in droves because they're bored to tears with running the same maps in 12 vs 12 over and over?

I've been playing this game for nearly 2 years, and don't get me wrong -- I love this game and the whole MW franchise. But I'm not getting a little tired of being a White Knight. So I have to ask -- IS THIS REALLY WHAT THIS GAME NEEDS RIGHT NOW?

I blame all of you people that bought gold Clan mechs for this.



OK. I feel better now. Thanks!

yes, it does, it attacks poptarting with a risk-reward dynamic that does not include randomness, which is great.

[Karl Streiger]

Gattsus, on 11 June 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

yes, it does, it attacks poptarting with a risk-reward dynamic that does not include randomness, which is great.

Not even near.... tell me who is hurt most:

the Poptarter - that fires his heat sinks with 1.5 sec at best....1 to rise 0.5 to slow down
the Brawler that jumps into battle - wasting all the thurst of 3.25 sec to get into short range.

Fall damage and heat - even with so absurd not measureable values like those from the "IDEA" does hardly anything to "kill" poptarting. its just a global nerf on all mechs but Lights - like the unnerfable Jenner and poptarters

[SgtMagor]

will we be able to do this? "I Am Jade Falcon" maneuver

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 12 June 2014 - 03:28 AM, said:

Not even near.... tell me who is hurt most:

the Poptarter - that fires his heat sinks with 1.5 sec at best....1 to rise 0.5 to slow down
the Brawler that jumps into battle - wasting all the thurst of 3.25 sec to get into short range.

Fall damage and heat - even with so absurd not measureable values like those from the "IDEA" does hardly anything to "kill" poptarting. its just a global nerf on all mechs but Lights - like the unnerfable Jenner and poptarters

true, somehow falldamage and this heat are a joke for small mechs, while the higher weight mechs get panalised in a lot more unbalanced way.

So again the basic idea is good, the values are just chosen not so good.

[LordSkyKnight]

Deathlike, on 06 June 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

I wasn't discussing fall damage. I was explicitly talking heat.

One of the things that people did not like prior to the Victor+Highlander JJ nerfs was that it only took ONE JJ, to fulfill the role, limiting the purpose of requiring more than 1 JJ for poptarting. So, if you "wanted more" out of JJs, you had to take more. That seemed reasonable.

If heat is scaled in a way to ACTUALLY penalize using multiple JJs, then it makes more sense to take just ONE JJ instead. The point of JJs is to get lift, so the normal proper way to commit to that is more tonnage+crits for JJs. If heat generated from multiple JJs makes something like the Victor-9K or Heavy Metal less suitable for putting in JJs, then you've defeated the purpose of "giving it more JJ power".

I get the feeling that "in order" to balance it, 1 JJ would unfortunately have a "high overhead" with more JJs progressively giving less additional heat. If the heat generated is in an exponential curve instead of a reasonable logarithmic curve, then there will be problems.

It isn't an exponential curve. It's straight linear. I for one like this idea. As you said, you can no longer get away with just one JJ if you want to be a decently effective poptart. So how this affects poptarts is that they now will have to spend more time cooling down and less time jumpsniping. As was pointed out previously, mechs using their jumpjets for travel won't care much, because with the exception of poptarts, mechs using jumpjets are either firing or jumping, not both. Sure, there are some situations where this isn't true other than poptarting, but by and large it is. So here's another mechanic change that not only makes sense physically (as much as giant death robots do) and hurts the poptart meta, which is currently damaging the game. Nice work, PGI.

[Gattsus]

Karl Streiger, on 12 June 2014 - 03:28 AM, said:

Not even near.... tell me who is hurt most:

the Poptarter - that fires his heat sinks with 1.5 sec at best....1 to rise 0.5 to slow down
the Brawler that jumps into battle - wasting all the thurst of 3.25 sec to get into short range.

Fall damage and heat - even with so absurd not measureable values like those from the "IDEA" does hardly anything to "kill" poptarting. its just a global nerf on all mechs but Lights - like the unnerfable Jenner and poptarters

if they get the numbers right it would be really good.

[Willothius]

HighTest, on 11 June 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

I've been playing this game for nearly 2 years, and don't get me wrong -- I love this game and the whole MW franchise. But I'm not getting a little tired of being a White Knight. So I have to ask -- IS THIS REALLY WHAT THIS GAME NEEDS RIGHT NOW?

I blame all of you people that bought gold Clan mechs for this.

Well, hopefully they'll have more resources available for Maps, CW, other necessary stuff after the Clans release! Also, though these should probably be a lower priority issue, I do like that they are putting thought into these things!

-Heat depending on JJ use? More realistic = good.
-Falling damage depending on weight/speed/height? More realistic = good.
-SRM fixes? cant see how this would NOT be a good thing.

Now the next 'minor' thing should be to add screen shake when falling; no more invisible carpet ride down!

[Archon]

As someone who only really uses jumpjets to keep my massive Highlander from getting stuck on terrain or getting over hills, not poptarting, I find this really frustrating. A single jumpjet (the only one I use) already weighs 2 freaking tons AND the jets hardly do as much as they used to. I'm using it to try to combat the horrible amount of crap I get hung up on on the battlefield, and now I'll be punished for doing that too? It really frustrates me that meta-players abusing of jumpjets makes it so much worse for those using them as they're intended.

[Threat Doc]

Stick to the tabletop values. Jumping brings a minimum of 3 heat points, regardless of whether you jump thirty meters or 120. This covers the first 90 meters of a jump, up or out, and then each 30 meters of distance, also up or out, or fraction thereof, generates another heat point. This heat over time nonsense is only going to cause more problems, especially because it literally gives Light 'Mechs FURTHER carte blanche to be all over the board and taking even MORE advantage of their already way overpowered status. All ridiculous discussions about heat over time are just stupid, IMHO.

[P e t e D a d d y]

You know, releasing compressed air actually has a cooling effect while releasing. Heat is generated when the compressor starts running to refill the tank. Have you ever frozen your hand refilling a car air conditioner unit? Same idea.

It would make more sense in terms of real physics if there was minor heat reduction while jumping and a bigger penalty afterward, if compressed air is really the way jump jets work. Care would have to be given in flight to deal with heat upon landing, since alpha striking on the way up could result in core damage on the way down. A pop tart could be shut down and vulnerable after attacking.

Less flight would mean less heat gained afterward. I think this could really make jump jets challenging and more realistic.

Of course, you could add heat in linear fashion, if they were fuel-based instead of compressed air.

[Threat Doc]

No, according to the lore, jetting requires ionized plasma that is built up and released. Big heat. My thoughts are that different manufacturer types of jets will act differently, some of them like jet engines, which is implied from the exhaust ports you see for jump jets on 'Mechs. However, you're not going to get enough reaction mass together through simple air, it's going to have to be super-heated and released.

[Steven Dixon]

I think that the heat buff is a decent idea. Personally I wish that JJ were more viable for movement while still being less viable for poptarts. My personal suggestion is that JJ's should move faster, basically they give you a blast of movement (more of an actual jump rather than a slow thrust). With some tweaking this can make them more fun for movement (and I think JJ's can be best served if they are fun to use rather than being part of the meta), it can also make them feel useful for getting around particularly in rough terrain. As a side effect it would make it more difficult to poptart because you would be moving faster which would make it harder to hit. Also the screen shake could last the entire time making it even harder while still making it possible.

[PyckenZot]

More good news! I'm getting the taste for this :-)