147 replies to this topic

[Jody Von Jedi]

For me this is bitter sweet. I hate jump snipers, but I'm a jump brawler. And I'm heavy on the space bar. I guess I'll see how this impacts my play style before I decide whether I like it or hate it.

[Cimarb]

Jin Ma, on 06 June 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

Because if they are firing, they are generating heat. And if they are Firing(heat) + Jump Jetting(heat) they create more heat than with our current system. Firing(heat) + Jump Jetting(no heat). The added heat to an already hot Jump Jetting mech near max heat usage, will increase likelyhood of overheating the jump jetting + firing mech.

While mechs using JJ to travel don't care about the added heat, because it will never be enough to cause them to overheat. Jump jetting alone will never cause near overheating levels if the mech is only traveling.

Like how ambient heat only affects your mech when you are firing the weapons, if you are juts walking around it doesn't really matter, because simply walking will never cause you to overheat.

I don't know how else to explain this

That affects firing and non-firing mechs equally. It doesn't penalize firing mechs any more than running does, as you even allude to.

Deathlike, on 06 June 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

IIRC, JJs currently use "scalar values" (aka it's linear).

What they should be is exponential.

Ever wonder why 1 JJ gives essentially "fixed" height increases in the mechlab? That's not good.

Instead of +5m for each JJ, it would be like 3 for JJ #1, then 9 or 10 for JJ #2, and 18-19 for JJ #3, etc.
You can change the lift based on weight or whatever that makes sense.

It would work better really.

I completely agree. Like the heat (longer you hold it, the quicker the heat builds), the boost provided should be exponential.

[ratgoat]

And the gap between the Victor and Highlander widens even more.

[Cimarb]

MuonNeutrino, on 06 June 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

The thing people are missing about the 'more jets = more heat' thing is that more jets ALSO means more thrust. A mech with more jets will not have to burn them as long to get to a given height, which will somewhat mitigate the extra heat.
<snip>
I do think, though, that the first jet ought to generate more heat than the subsequent ones, simply because the first jet also generates more thrust than the subsequent ones. More jets would still equal more heat, but not by as huge of an amount, which would somewhat soften this penalty.

That isn't actually true, though. At least not yet. The amount of thrust gained by subsequent jets (for most mechs) is so much less than the first couple jets that it isn't currently worth it. Adding growing heat penalties based upon number of jets just adds to that issue, as you are now increasing the opportunity cost without offsetting it with more opportunity.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

So, will the heat and fall damage be stacking the damage?

Example: Mech jumps to max height and fires it weapons, this exceeds the shut down limit and the Mech shuts down for the fall back to the ground.

- Will the fall cause extra damage due to the Mech being shut down and not bracing or preparing for the landing?
- Will this cause the Mech to 'fail' the landing, an fall over, again suffering damage to additional other systems?
(knock down, fall down dependent when it is returned to the game.)

If your Mech is falling and had any lateral movement before the shut down, it should now fall over when it lands.
- all system are off line, is this the gyro also?
- we really need the knock down,fall down effect placed back in for just this case.
( I don't care if it's there for anything else, but it needs to be turned on for this no power landing.)

9erRed

[Jin Ma]

Cimarb, on 06 June 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

That affects firing and non-firing mechs equally. It doesn't penalize firing mechs any more than running does, as you even allude to.


I completely agree. Like the heat (longer you hold it, the quicker the heat builds), the boost provided should be exponential.

there is essentially no penalty in non firing jump jetting mechs, because they are no where near overheating.

And unless heat penalty is graded like in TT, 20 heat is essentially the same thing as 0 heat, especially since a moving mech only uses a jump jet intermittently and has time to dissapate the heat. The exception is if it is jump jetting into battle, in which the 20(arbitrary example) exra heat generated by JJ carries over before it dissipates and reduces the amount of heat bar space in which they can accumulate heat for their weapon's fire before overheating, in which case it is serving its purpose to reduce poptarting effectiveness.

Edited by Jin Ma, 06 June 2014 - 06:30 PM.

[SpiralFace]

Paul, first off, thanks so much for taking a look and implementing a system like this. Its greatly appreciated given the current state of JJ's in the game.

My only concern about treating lights differently from assaults as you mention is this,

I don't see this change as something that should target the "meta" of jump sniping, but the greater issue which is the dynamic between jumping and non-jumping mechs.

For the most part, viability of a chassis completely comes down to its ability to equip and utilize JJ's. This goes for all mechs across all weight classes especially lights.

With this proposed change, I can see it having an immediate effect on JJ's for heavier designs, but on paper, I don't really see this affecting the issue that non-jumping lights have in comparison to JJ lights.

In fact, given the "climb" mechanics and how you can continue to travel at hundereds of KPH an hour when JJ's are activate, I see this as basically not affecting lights hardly at all.

Which is a big issue for me at least because It still creates a "viability" gap between those lights that have the ability to equip JJ's and those that do not.

Take the Raven 2X and the sub-30 ton mechs. They are pretty much considered a DOA frames because it can't equip ECM, and don't have access to JJ's.

Its great that this kind of change is being looked into, but the one thing that I would say I would like to see in the final end product is to have this tool or others be used to help bridge the gap not between jump snipers and non- jump snipers, but the dynamic between JJ mechs and non-JJ mechs as a whole.

Because out of all the frames out there, this gap is more apparent in the light category then anywhere else. So to me curbing the heat might make lights more viable in comparison to other frames, but it still leaves the non-JJ mechs behind and pretty much clamoring for some degree of usefulness in the game.

Will wait and see till the final product releases and I'm VERY excited by it. But I do want to see this as a change for the balance between JJ and non - JJ mechs as a whole. ESPECIALLY in the light chassis where this rift is the most apparent.

[Deathlike]

SpiralFace, on 06 June 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Paul, first off, thanks so much for taking a look and implementing a system like this. Its greatly appreciated given the current state of JJ's in the game.

My only concern about treating lights differently from assaults as you mention is this,

I don't see this change as something that should target the "meta" of jump sniping, but the greater issue which is the dynamic between jumping and non-jumping mechs.

For the most part, viability of a chassis completely comes down to its ability to equip and utilize JJ's. This goes for all mechs across all weight classes especially lights.

With this proposed change, I can see it having an immediate effect on JJ's for heavier designs, but on paper, I don't really see this affecting the issue that non-jumping lights have in comparison to JJ lights.

In fact, given the "climb" mechanics and how you can continue to travel at hundereds of KPH an hour when JJ's are activate, I see this as basically not affecting lights hardly at all.

Which is a big issue for me at least because It still creates a "viability" gap between those lights that have the ability to equip JJ's and those that do not.

Take the Raven 2X and the sub-30 ton mechs. They are pretty much considered a DOA frames because it can't equip ECM, and don't have access to JJ's.

Its great that this kind of change is being looked into, but the one thing that I would say I would like to see in the final end product is to have this tool or others be used to help bridge the gap not between jump snipers and non- jump snipers, but the dynamic between JJ mechs and non-JJ mechs as a whole.

Because out of all the frames out there, this gap is more apparent in the light category then anywhere else. So to me curbing the heat might make lights more viable in comparison to other frames, but it still leaves the non-JJ mechs behind and pretty much clamoring for some degree of usefulness in the game.

Will wait and see till the final product releases and I'm VERY excited by it. But I do want to see this as a change for the balance between JJ and non - JJ mechs as a whole. ESPECIALLY in the light chassis where this rift is the most apparent.

I will say that you would be surprised what < 35t light mechs can climb on, despite having no JJs.

It's really that slower mechs suffer more from it.

Edited by Deathlike, 06 June 2014 - 07:06 PM.

[Lily from animove]

sounds ok so far, must be tested to see how it affects specific things. together with more fall damage this my be a good way to stop brianless JJ action and make people think about where to use them.

[Felio]

The SDR-5V needs buffs, not nerfs.

[Leigus]

Ok, addressing Jump Jets is good, but what about all the points people have been making that Jump Jets are universally accepted to make aiming vastly more difficult (resulting in misses and spread-out hits).

Why not apply a reticule "flare" to any mech that is in the air, using the existing "Jump Jet rng" mechanic but for the entire duration of the jump (not just while the spacebar is being held). Possibly make it more severe while the Jump Jets are active and more severe based on jump jet class (such that it hits Assaults extremely hard, and Lights not as much).

[Gigastrike]

Cimarb, on 06 June 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

That isn't actually true, though. At least not yet. The amount of thrust gained by subsequent jets (for most mechs) is so much less than the first couple jets that it isn't currently worth it. Adding growing heat penalties based upon number of jets just adds to that issue, as you are now increasing the opportunity cost without offsetting it with more opportunity.

Which is why, instead of removing the heat penalty for extra jump jets, a legitimate reason should be added to make people want to bring extra jump jets in the first place.

[East Indy]

Gigastrike, on 06 June 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

Which is why, instead of removing the heat penalty for extra jump jets, a legitimate reason should be added to make people want to bring extra jump jets in the first place.

Why not do both?

[East Indy]

MuonNeutrino, on 06 June 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

For a hypothetical example, imagine 4 jets generates 2 heat per second and one generates 0.5 heat per second, but 4 jets only has to burn for 3 seconds to get to a certain ledge while 1 jet has to burn for 6.

Sure, but more jets already provide greater thrust, and there's no trend toward maxing them out.

It's a solution in search of problem. What's the worst that will happen if 1 jet and 8 jets produce the same heat? Somebody's Spider build actually allocates 4 tons?

[SpiralFace]

Deathlike, on 06 June 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

I will say that you would be surprised what < 35t light mechs can climb on, despite having no JJs.

It's really that slower mechs suffer more from it.

I was never talking about their manuverability but their viability.

JJ's are a massive force multiplier for lights, allowing for aerial combat and other things that while it makes them dynamic to play, also creates a huge "balance gap" between those that can do so with JJ's, and those that do not have the ability to equip JJ's, thus making their entire frames essentially non-viable frames.

I have no issue with sub 35's manuverability, but it does nothing to their viability when JJ's currently unlock so much for a light frame for so little.

Leigus, on 06 June 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Ok, addressing Jump Jets is good, but what about all the points people have been making that Jump Jets are universally accepted to make aiming vastly more difficult (resulting in misses and spread-out hits).

Why not apply a reticule "flare" to any mech that is in the air, using the existing "Jump Jet rng" mechanic but for the entire duration of the jump (not just while the spacebar is being held). Possibly make it more severe while the Jump Jets are active and more severe based on jump jet class (such that it hits Assaults extremely hard, and Lights not as much).

This is always an option that they can use.

To me, this is a card in their back pocket they can pull out if the proposed changes don't do the things that they want it to. JJ's are already getting a massive balance overhaul for larger frames through both increased fall damage and heat for use. I would say lets see how this in itself affects the balance before bringing that card out if we need further adjustments.

[YueFei]

Deathlike, on 06 June 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

2 JJs is enough for most, but I already run 4 JJs on a Victor as it is, so I dunno what to tell you. JJ lift should be exponentially better with more JJs, not linearlly better which is what it happens to be right now.

Well, currently it's linear, but the Y-intercept on the slope is positive. That first JJ provides a lot of initial thrust and height, and all subsequent JJ's add only a little bit to it.

It shouldn't be exponential, it should still be linear, but the Y-intercept on the slope should be a negative value. If your mech is 50 tons, and 1 JJ generates 60 tons of thrust, you're lifting with only 10 tons of thrust. Slap a 2nd JJ, and now you have 70 tons of thrust, or 7 times the acceleration for shoving in a 2nd JJ. Put a 3rd, and you'll have 130 tons of thrust, which is almost double what you had with 2 JJs. Put a 4th JJ and you're at 190 tons of thrust, and so on. It's always an increase of 60 tons of thrust.

Basically having 1 JJ would be nearly useless for getting actual vertical lift because it only just barely cancels out the mech's weight.

But... MWO cannot into physics. =/

[Jakob Knight]

Paul Inouye' said:

While we appreciate that table-top rules are somewhat different, implementing them as according to turn-based system would severely affect smaller 'Mechs in our real-time game environment.

According to the table-top rules, the farther and higher a battlemech jumped, the more heat it generated. Why you think Light Mechs should not be penalized for having the longer and higher jump abilities over other battlemechs seems odd. Why should a light mech pilot -not- have to balance their jump jet use against the heat generated by heavy use of this system, when other units do?

Ever since I saw a stationary Jenner take two AC/20 hits from another stationary firing unit at close range directly to its rear torsos and only take yellow armor damage, I've long suspected a bias towards bending the rules for light mechs, and this smacks of the same. If a light mech is not engaging in combat while using their jump jets overmuch, then there wouldn't be a problem with heat, would there? Yet, apparently, the same issue that is attempting to make heavier units not use their jump jets in combat is something light mechs are intended to get a pass on?

Quit making special cases for light mechs, and just let every unit be treated fairly under the rules. Heavier units already have to pay more tonnage for their jump jets, -and- cannot jump as far. Why must they now also take -more- heat simply because they are not lighter units?

Light mechs already have the advantages of speed, damage reduction, and small size. They do not need, nor should have, any other 'special rules' simply because they are Light mechs. Let light mechs be -light- units.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 06 June 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[Jonathan Paine]

One slight problem: Highlanders. Heaviest jump jets compared to mech weight, worst lift, worst heat and worst falling damage.
Oh well, I luv my atlas!

[Cerlin]

I was recently replaying MW2 and I had the "ooh yeah JJ have heat." Moment again. So I think this is awesome. Both cannon and something that will make jump sniping harder.

[Adran]

Why does everyone seem to think 1 JJ gives more thrust? Each JJ gives the EXACT SAME AMOUNT of thrust. Every JJ on my Cat gives precisely 6.09m of distance. This number varies by mech, but the same is true for ALL MECHS! Thus, 1 JJ will NEVER be more or less punishing than having all 4, aside from the increase in heat that scales LINEARLY, as every trait of the JJ currently does.