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Targeting Computers And Command Console - Feedback


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#381 Pjwned

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 05:32 PM

View PostPaul Inouye, on 07 June 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

Command Console

Now let’s take a look at the Inner Sphere Command Console, which will be sharing functionality similar to the Targeting Computers.

NOTE: Once again, all values are placeholders.

Command Console

Weight: 3 tons.

Slots: 1 slot.

Zoom distance: [+5.25]%

Sensor range: [+6.0]%

Time to gather target info: [-20.5]%





I see that the values for the command console are a placeholder but I really hope it turns out quite a bit better than that, I would never use it with that little benefit for 3 tons and a crit slot.

#382 Nooee

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 04:11 AM

Thanks Paul for another failed Logic path.

#383 Demoncard

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:22 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 14 June 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

I don't see much use for a Mk IV - Mk VII console. Not at the cost of that much tonnage/slots. I would rather have the weapon system that I would probably have to sacrifice to mount the console.

That being said, though this is exciting in general terms, even if it is not really feasible. I see it as a crutch for new players or veteran players who just don't have skills. If you have so much trouble aiming and hitting that you are will to sacrifice a weapon system for the Mk VII system, then it probably isn't going to be such a huge help to you in the long run.

I might be enticed to use the Mk I or Mk II systems for the slight boost to target info gathering (would be nice if it stacks with my Target Info Gathering module), but beyond that, I would much rather have the slots and tonnage for weapons, heat sinks, and ammo.

The crit bonuses are very nice, but again, you have to sacrifice a weapon system. It's hard for me to justify a 7-ton loss just for 25% crit chance increase when our crit chances are already pretty decent. On an Assault Mech, it might be more feasible because of the extra tonnage, but I can't see it being used on anything smaller than that.

Those are just my thoughts on it. :)


It'd be useful for when you don't really need more heatsinks ("Nonsense, you can never have too many heatsinks!"), you're full on weapons, or you don't want another weapon because it'd throw off your cooling capacity and another heatsink would be excessive for the remaining weapons that are running fairly cool or wouldn't fit. Granted, it does sound slightly convoluted.

What's there not to like about beam crits? Mechwarriors focusing on beam weapons will love these.

The command console's relatively awful, and a waste of space. It doesn't do anything remotely commandy. If it blessed all lancemates in range of 200m with those values, it'd be better.

Edited by Demoncard, 15 June 2014 - 07:28 AM.


#384 ImperialKnight

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:51 AM

For 3 tons, the Command Console needs to be an extremely powerful information warfare and command and control device


My suggested specs for it:

+25% sensor range
-50% target info gathering
paints a "bullseye" market on targetted enemy mech
effects of bullseye marker for friendly mechs
+2.5% damage
+10% critical chance
-25% lock-on time
+25% missile tracking strength
enemy mech is silhouetted in HUD instead of just a targeting box (i.e. you can see the outline of the enemy mech)

Edited by knightsljx, 15 June 2014 - 08:01 AM.


#385 Gharrin

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:08 AM

The topic of the Command console has intrigued me since it was first listed in the mechlab. So to learn that its close to getting a long awaited function was good to hear. However the current suggested implementation is, at most, merely a starting point. The TC looks like its vastly superior to the Command Console in that it obviously is geared toward helping you acquire and also destroy an enemy mech as quick or as efficiently as possible, The Command console on the other hand looks like its trying to mimic the function of the TC, but without any weapon buffs which leaves it lacking something. The purpose should be beyond just acquiring a target and gathering information and more about sharing it to a leader who uses it to coordinate flanks, feints, and other tactics.

Everyone can agree, I think, on the need for an implementation of a "Command" boosting element for this piece of equipment. While it does help your team to be targeting things and getting information quicker to determine threats and weaknesses it doesn't help you reinforce a strategy quickly enough through any function currently provided or described outside of sheer luck, or voice-coms.

I have for quite a long while believed that the Battlegrid needs an overhaul or at the very least additions that would befit the inclusion of the CC into it. This would give the Command console what it desperately seems to lack compared to the TC's pending implementation, by showcasing both an integration of "information" and "Control".

I saw this post and I thought it was a good mock up of what could be beneficial to information to act on. There are definitely things that are positive and negative about it.

View PostCarrioncrows, on 07 June 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:


Spoiler



The fact is the Battlegrid is extremely simple and yet there is lots of room for expanding its functionality, as illustrated in the quoted post. The main thing that I would like to add to this is the idea of not only having information that we currently posses, like enemy's chassis, variant, armor %, distance, etc, provided on the Battlegrid as suggested, but to also include teammates full loadout information. It is just as important to know what your team is bringing to the match as the enemies team, if not more so.

What I propose is similar to what was already suggested but with more of a focus on information that you should know about your own team from the outset.

Posted Image

So I'll break this down in a few sections as indicated by the numbered diamonds.
<1>
Spoiler


<2>
Spoiler


<3>
Spoiler


<4>
Spoiler

<5>
Spoiler


The benefits to such a implementation are many and first and foremost would be that of enabling each team member to understand each others loadouts and possible roles beyond simply knowing mech/variant. This extends to just a simple teammate wanting to know "whats on that A1, How much ammo does he have or hey! he's using the same variant as me i wonder what hes using", and finding that there is a huge difference,(Long range vs, short range potential.) It also extends to the Lance commander knowing the other 3 mechs and know what he might be able to afford to do with the weapons/equipment available, to even the Company Commander who oversees each lance and can recognize one lances ability to bolster a deficiency in another loadout.

So running through this thread and proposing this change there are a few things that I can still mull over. Improving the Battlegrid should be done regardless of whether or not CC gets included with functionality or restriction on the abilties of the up to date information to be CC specific. Essentially leaving out the Clans from knowing what they're teammates are really in for, Armor levels, ammo, heat, etc.

In light of what they have stated the TC and CC provides it is apparent that the TC is more realized than the CC. As I understand it of the implementation, the TC's can only ever be on the mechs/variants that support them aka like ECM and have the appropriately weight/slot associated. My question is more about the CC and who can and cannot use them. Even if its every I.S. mech that can equip its still not quite on even ground given the Clans restrictions on TC's. If its relegated to being on only Heavies or Assaults then it still needs the appropriate command integration changes to the Battlegrid or something else that caters to "Command". I would picture that given the right capabilities mentioned their would be 3 true fully realized CC users: The Company Commander and the two other Lance Leaders. Balance can be achieved this way if you consider the suggestion that CC would let u drop strikes, maybe remotely drop UAV's, etc in addition to the suggested improvements to the Battlegrid.

In this thread its been suggested that the CC might allow you more Strikes, UAV's, consumables but really this only harms balance in that it promotes spamming strikes especially if you also allow remote call ins using the battlegrid. Its one or the other but not both unless there is a considerable change in cool-downs/overall effectiveness.

Along with the proposed update to the Battlegrid the developers need to implement the "Command Wheel" in tandem to address the requirement to easily direct the battle while contributing to the battle one to fight out of the Battlegrid. The idea of the Command mech utilizing ECM makes sense in that it needs to respond to the need to remain undetected while directing the battle. Any mech that is without ECM would be more reliant on lancemates and a system of command that is more on the fly.

Through both suggestions mentioned by Carrioncrows as well as others I think there might be a middle ground to address these implementation ideas of the CC into MWO. So I feel that a lot of work has to go in to get the Command Console to be the piece of equipment it deserves to be and it would definitely be worth it.

Suggestions and feedback are welcome! Keep up the good work PGI!

Edited by Gharrin, 15 June 2014 - 09:09 AM.


#386 Cpt Chattahah

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 11:14 AM

Massive thumbs up.

Bummer on the delay, but, great additional options for configurations.

#387 Photec

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 06:49 AM

The targeting computers seem good, if a little OP with the crit bonus. Still, not to shabby.

The CC seems underwhelming for 3 tons.

Maybe it could actually do something that could be considered command-like?

Example1: Reusable (slightly nerfed) Artillery Strikes, limit of one CC per side

Example 2: Faster locks and infos for the rest of the team, limit of one CC per side.

Example 3: Being able to fire an ECM area on a small portion of the map, kinda like an arty, only without the damage and a slightly bigger area. Limit of one CC per side.

Example 4: Locks lasts longer after mech moves from LOS as CC predicts movement somewhat

Example 5: CC leaves a mark where enemy mech was last spotted (and targeted) on the map

Example 6: CC gives user a quicker twist, run and turn speed as the second pilot helps with coordination and optimalization.

Example 7: CC Lets you bring an extra spectator

Etc etc etc.

I'm sure you can do better than what you're currently planning for the CCs.

#388 Cimarb

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 10:32 AM

I think there are two things that could make the CC viable. First would be to require it for air/arty strikes - this would also indirectly limit the number of strikes brought to a match, thereby improving that issue at the same time. Second would be sharing the listed bonuses with anyone in a certain radius (similar to ECM).

I like the CTC, but having the entire thing locked to a single section makes the higher versions nearly unusable in most balanced builds - 7 crit slots is no joke, especially in the mechs that have the spare tonnage to equip one.

#389 Mr Blonde

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 02:27 PM

I am at first reading very pleased with the usage of the targeting computer. I feared as many did that it would have to be an aimbot to be effectively what it is in TT. I like this much better. Now if they could only ban the aimbotters, that would be even sweeter. As it is I expect the TC to be a great addition, and a big help while not OP beyond what it is in TT.

CC seems like a decent equivalent, I think a better usage might be to allow some sort of strategic advantage (longer sensor range, etc). It's supposed to be a second pilot sitting in the cockpit (actually a separate one). I don't know if that's feasible in this game. If a second player was willing to sit in that spot and keep his strategic map up, and direct his team, that would be what the CC really is. Don't see that happening, although it may be fun...

#390 DYSEQTA

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 04:18 PM

Get rid of those crit modifiers completely and the info gathering bonuses are a little extreme wouldn't you say? O.o

This is getting ridiculous.

#391 Postumus

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 10:00 PM

Just scrap the Command Console idea. The targeting computer stats I kind of get; it would have been better to do something MW3 style, I.E. lead indicator with a minimum range, to make consistent sniping with AC/5 AC/2 easier. Some new mechanic, instead of boring stat buffs/efficiencies. But then nerfing those stats, and copy pasta-ing into a "Command Console"? Super lazy, even more boring, and nowhere near enough benefit for the tonnage.

The Command Console in lore is supposed to provide a benefit to the lance, not the individual mech. What you should do is something like an area of effect team boost - something like a low level AOE BAP, target decay, and target info buff. Or, alternately, something cool like allowing the command mech to designate targets with a damage bonus to that target, "commanding" your lance to attack it. One final idea would be allowing the user of the command console to directly see the damage status of their lance. Anything but a crappy version of the clan Targeting Computer.

Edited by Postumus, 16 June 2014 - 10:00 PM.


#392 Mayhem McCrea

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 12:03 AM

Just here to echo others disatisfaction with the command console. TC sounds ok, technical impossibilities in regards to projectile velocities aside. Please, please go back to the drawing board on the CC. There are a ton of awesome suggestions on the forums, many of which have been added to or mentioned in this thread.

Or at least claim that the CC WILL have additional functions when you guys successfully launch CW around September. I have faith. See me having faith? Tons of faith have I.

EDIT: September, not August. August is when first clan mechs become available for cbills.

Edited by Mayhem McCrea, 23 June 2014 - 02:56 AM.


#393 Yokomohoyo

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 08:28 AM

Here is my Feedback for the Targeting Computers and Command Console. First the Targeting Computers based on the best Targeting Computer which is the Targeting Computer Mk VII:
1) Zoom distance: [+7.5]% - is ok but works best at long ranges
2) Sensor range: [+7.5]% - completely useless with the Null Signature System in MechWarrior Online and ECM invisibility. I have Beagle Active Probe plus Enhanced Sensors II module and there are both useless even with increased Sensor range of [+∞]% it still would be useless.
3) Time to gather target info: [-75]% - completely useless see above.
4) Projectile weapon projectile speed: [+15.0]% - is good and works always
5) Beam weapon long ranges: [+15.0]% - is very good but works only at long ranges
6) Beam weapon max ranges: [+15.0]% - is very good and works only within the weapons max range
7) Increased crit chance for projectile and beam weapons: [+25]% - is excellent but works only againsta location with no armor left
8) Weight: 7 tons. – ok
9) Slots: 7 slots. – ok

The Command Console:
1) Zoom distance: [+5.25]% - is ok but works best at long ranges
2) Sensor range: [+6.0]% - completely useless with the Null Signature System in MechWarrior Online and ECM invisibility. I have Beagle Active Probe plus Enhanced Sensors II module and there are both useless even with increased Sensor range of [+∞]% it still would be useless.
3) Time to gather target info: [-20.5]% - completely useless see above.
4) Weight: 3 tons. – very bad
5) Slots: 1 slots. – ok

In conclusion the Targeting Computers are ok but the Command Console is very bad, however this is not what MechWarrior Online needs to get over the low tech feeling of the game. This game desperately needs useful sensors like the ones the military currently uses or better because it is a futuristic ultra-high tech world. Since MechWarrior Online sensors are completely useless I would prefer if the Targeting Computers and the Command Console provide zoom for all weapon ranges like 100m, 200m, 300m, 500m, 1000m, 1,500m, 2,000m etc. this can compensate for the useless sensors. This would even make night vision usable in night fighting instead of the heat vision everyone uses. Right now it is easy for an enemy mech to be invisible to advanced zoom if that mech is at 1,000m+ and has a mountain behind him. If you really want to make Targeting Computers like Battletech all you need to have is a special location lock like a missile lock but with different color like green.

#394 DEZIBAHN

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 07:50 AM

I don't think I'm liking these. The TC idea isn't bad, I guess, with the weight required to mount the larger ones. From personal experience, though, I can't say I'm a fan of the idea... I work best at ranges <400m, and I already find myself getting utterly shredded by ER LLasers before I can get into any sort of damage-dealing range. Adding an extra 15% to that range? I may as well strip all the weapons off my HBK, it's too slow for an effective flank, and that'll be the only way to close the distance on some of these maps.

The CC, however, is just... worthless, imo. 3 tons, for what? a tiny bit of zoom and sensor range? That's 3 tons that would be better suited for heat sinks or ammunition or CASE. On all 3 of my HBKs, I can't even imagine how I could free up 3 tons without absolutely breaking the builds.

*edited because words.

Edited by DEZIBAHN, 20 June 2014 - 07:50 AM.


#395 cosxy

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 01:34 PM

I only have one question why the command console? In battle tech the Inner sphere version of the targeting computer [in 3050] was the Master computer. The clan targeting computer was superior in the way that it didn't rely on others to lower your shooting(plus ECM wasn't able to cut off the master).

The biggest advantage of the C3 network was its ability to reduce the range of targets.

#396 Cimarb

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 04:57 PM

View Postcosxy, on 23 June 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

I only have one question why the command console? In battle tech the Inner sphere version of the targeting computer [in 3050] was the Master computer. The clan targeting computer was superior in the way that it didn't rely on others to lower your shooting(plus ECM wasn't able to cut off the master).

The biggest advantage of the C3 network was its ability to reduce the range of targets.

Obviously, there is no way to "reduce the range of targets". The best way to do that is to increase the projectile velocity, as that makes your projectiles hit much more accurately.

#397 NeoAres

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 06:39 PM

As far as the previous 20 pages of the thread go, tl;dr, so my idea may have been stated already somwhere in the pile. By the same token, I doubt anyone will actually read this and I'm wasting my time, but whatever...

For the Targeting Computer, I think it's a decent translation of the BT version's abilities, with one exception: the TC should not have an effect on a weapon ranges--it makes no sense from a physics perspective, nor a BT perspective, and it only serves to make already-long range clan weaponry excessively long range.

However, I would take both pieces of equipment in an entirely different direction from where it's going, beginning with the Targeting Computer. I would revolve the Targeting Computer not around zoom or power, but around a different type of accuracy enhancement, one that I think has become taboo with all the talk of "auto-target" and its detriments to competitive gaming: automatic shot calculation. This is NOT auto-target; it does not aim your guns for you, but merely tells you where you should aim. It is noob-friendly, but far from noob-unfair, especially in the fast-paced cover-based warfare the elites play.

Targeting Computer Abilities
#1: Projectile Weapons--I saw this type of programming in use in X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter way way back, for those of you who remember that game. The shipboard computer would calculate, pretty accurately, where you had to aim your reticle in order to hit a moving target in front of you. The reticle would turn green when it was in the proper spot and, barring a sharp direction change from the opponent, would hit. I would take that technology and progress it one step further with the Targeting Computer--visualization of the calculation: take a situation where an enemy pops out from cover and runs across your path. Upon selecting that opponent for targeting, a red circle would appear on your screen showing you where to aim in order to hit the target based on their current range and speed, and would be updated in realtime (a zigzagging opponent would have the circle dancing back and forth in front of it, for example). Firing your projectile weapons at the exact moment the circle is in your reticle would essentially guarantee a hit, but you would still have to manually move your reticle there and press the trigger at the correct time. Each weapon would generate its own circle based upon its projectile speed, so one HUD could have multiple circles on it depending on loadout.
#2: Lasers--For laser targeting, (which of course requires no leading, but has duration to contend with), I would have the TC give the lasers extremely limited tracking ability. This tracking would be subject to the same time delay as missile lock (complete with visual representation and tone, regardless of presence of missiles). Once target lock had been acquired, if (and only if) the head of the laser shot was on target, the laser would continue to attempt to hit that spot for the duration of the beam. However, the tracking range would be limited to a couple degrees in each direction. Therefore, while helping laser users pinpoint specific parts of big, slow enemies (just like in the BT version of it), it would do next to nothing to help them keep their lasers trained on small, fast targets, which is where auto-targeting would traditionally be unbalancing.

A mech with just projectiles would have no laser enhancement, and vice versa. A mech with both types of weaponry would benefit from both enhancements, but each enhancement would only affect the weapon type it's associated with.

Addressing a couple arguments against me in advance:
*How would we scale this targeting computer? We can't have 7 versions without relying on progressive abilities.
-Oh please, that whole "7 version" concept is a complete lack of imagination on the part of the developers. You already have a template for the way TC should be scaled and it's called Artemis. Make TC an upgrade instead of an item, and you can scale it all you friggin like without making separate versions.

*I'm an elite player and I already hit moving targets and core without difficulty. How does this help me?
-I guess it doesn't. Congratulations on being so awesome. Spend your cbills and tonnage on more weaponry instead and you won't feel disenfranchised in the least. That's the beauty of mech games.
_________________________________

As for Command Console, I have nothing so fancy as my TC idea--it's merely a way to effectively gain and share intel with my teammates. My command console would have 2-3 functions:
#1. Receiving Data--Any mech within sight of any of my allies (regardless of ECM or whether or not they're being actively targeted) will appear on my minimap. I cannot target any of these opponents unless, as per usual, they're being actively targeted, but it helps me, as the "commander", gain a better sense of the battlefield and the enemy's layout. This is not a two way street, however. Only mechs with command consoles will be able to see the collective information, therefore the equipment doesn't become redundant in public matches.
#2. Sending Data--Whenever the command console-carrying mech receives targeting info on an opponent, that info is relayed to every mech on the team without them having to target said opponent independently. This ability is a footnote compared to #1, but it can pay big dividends early on in a game.
#3. Indirect Fire--This one may be overkill, but I figured I'd include it, just in case the first two aren't allure enough to equip it. All this ability would do is remove the reticle requirement for missile lock. In other words, as long as the opponent you are targeting is within your field of view, regardless of where your reticle is, you'll be able to achieve and hold missile lock. This will enable LRM users to target separate units with their direct-fire and missile weaponry, or allow SSRM users to lead their projectile weaponry in front of a nearby, fast-moving opponent without risking loss of SSRM lock. It would make the Command Console a lovely piece of equipment for players who like to use mixed-bag loadouts instead of choosing between boating missiles and projectiles.

Arguments against...
*Ability #1 seems overpowered for groups who use verbal comms. One player can equip the CC and then transmit position data to all the others on his/her channel.
-Verbal comms is already such a gross advantage in this game that a coordinated lance (or, god forbid, more) using them in a public match will splatter the opposition regardless of CC. In private matches, well, it would be a silly team that drops without having at least one mech equipping a CC, true, but I think such a top-down intelligence structure would only serve to enhance the type of warfare atmosphere we're going for with those organized matches.
Couldn't Ability #3 just be used as a noob crutch for SSRM users who can't aim?
-I suppose...BEHOLD THE MIGHTY SSRM2 BOAT!!! Need I say more? Clanners can't use CC so there's no chance of legit abuse unless IS develops some bigger launchers.
_____________________________________________

These versions of TC and CC would not conflict with BAP in any way. In fact, both would be complemented by BAP quite nicely (TC with its increased targeting range and CC with its reduced info-gathering time). Both would be relatively easy to program (albeit not quite as easy as simply applying more stat modifiers) and, while completely unique amongst the tech released thus far, decidedly un-alien.

Let me know what you think, loudly if you like it.

Edited by NeoAres, 23 June 2014 - 06:54 PM.


#398 Liam Salem

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:23 PM

Last time I read battletech lore, the command console was like a mini BAP which when paired with BAP, extended it's range by 4 hexes.

But then again, the DEV'S seem dead set on making this their way. I do agree the command console is underwhelming as it should possibly have some extra tweaks? Possibly even the ability to listen to the enemies communications? That was a major part of BattleTech lore. Listening in on the enemy was key but you had to be within range. BAP should also be revealing enemy positions on the minimap regardless of LOS but, we still don't have melee kicks to keep lights from chewing our crotches so meh lol

Is there an estimate of WHEN the update will hit?? I don't recall seeing a date for the functionalities of these going into effect.

Edited by Liam Salem, 23 June 2014 - 09:26 PM.


#399 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 10:21 PM

Changing projectile speeds will only make it harder to consistently hit your target when switching between mechs that have a TC and don't have one. It also makes no goddamn sense. It is a bad idea, full stop.

#400 Cimarb

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 06:06 AM

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 23 June 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

Changing projectile speeds will only make it harder to consistently hit your target when switching between mechs that have a TC and don't have one. It also makes no goddamn sense. It is a bad idea, full stop.

I don't agree. Your argument would be valid if every build/chassis was the exact same, but they aren't. You learn your mechs, and their quirks, through practice. If you want to be better, and more accurate, then find a good build for your mech and learn it. Once you have done that, the projectile speed increase is an accuracy benefit, like it should be. It makes plenty of sense to me.





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