517 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Pjwned, on 14 June 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

I see that the values for the command console are a placeholder but I really hope it turns out quite a bit better than that, I would never use it with that little benefit for 3 tons and a crit slot.

this, or just make it weight 1 ton, because this is still nothing compared to the 1t TC

[Dawnstealer]

FupDup, on 07 June 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

Command Console: The stats seem underwhelming, but it's a start. Maybe an extra module slot or two for mechs using the CC would help?

Kind of a fan of that one, actually. The two-module limit on Stalkers is kind of a hamstring. Especially with the number of weapon-mod modules, it would be nice to have some avenue to get more.

Maybe XP? I have several mastered mechs that are just raking in the XP with nothing to spend it on. Like have the option of buying another module slot for every 21,500 XP you spend after Master (so you could buy one each time you get another 21,500)?

Edited by Dawnstealer, 24 June 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[Cimarb]

Dawnstealer, on 24 June 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

Kind of a fan of that one, actually. The two-module limit on Stalkers is kind of a hamstring. Especially with the number of weapon-mod modules, it would be nice to have some avenue to get more.

Maybe XP? I have several mastered mechs that are just raking in the XP with nothing to spend it on. Like have the option of buying another module slot for every 21,500 XP you spend after Master (so you could buy one each time you get another 21,500)?

I am also a fan of the Command Console providing an extra module slot, and still think it should be required to equip arty/air.

I don't agree about the module slot every 21,500xp, though. That just creates an ever-growing gap between a new and veteran player, similar to how the gear gap at max level in WoW was/is.

[Nihtgenga]

NeoAres, on 23 June 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

For the Targeting Computer, I think it's a decent translation of the BT version's abilities, with one exception: the TC should not have an effect on a weapon ranges--it makes no sense from a physics perspective, nor a BT perspective, and it only serves to make already-long range clan weaponry excessively long range.

I do not agree on that. Neither does an effective range boost make sense (no ballistic weapon will fire further when aimed better, that's a matter of the propellant charge and projectile aerodynamics), nor does more critting (not connected with better aim at all, as long as you can not specificly aim for a crit).

My suggestions:

I do like your TC ability proposal #1 (weapon lead indicator), as I was also proposing it already. However, this lead indicator would be troublesome in implementation on mechs with a large number of different weapons - there would be many indicators, which would not only obstruct the view, but also would create the need to somehow "mark" them for the player sufficiently to allow him to see, which indicator is corresponding to which weapon. Instead of the TC, I'd take this for SSRMs only (= getting closer back to BT description of SSRMs), trading in the current "somehow-somewhere-homing" capability.

My favored implementation of a TC would be to first uniformly introduce COF on ballistics+PPC (like on MG already), which would alleviate the often complained pinpoint-damage-problem, remove the second "standard"-zoomlevel, and have the TCs gradually reducing COF and allowing better zooming (second zoom level). For Lasers, I'd add something similar to COF by removing auto-convergence and replacing it by converging on selected target range only. The time until reaching full convergence after targeting would then be reduced by TCs.


This way, spending tonnage and slots on TCs is also benefit for more experienced players, while still not making aiming without impossible.

Now, on to my personal CC. Trying to mimic the BT description/effect, a CC shall not improve targeting like TC or share target information/enable indirect fire without locking (C3-functionality), but allow to do more tactical operations per time. Therefore, a CC could grant the following boni:

1) Enhanced survivability against headshots: Having a second cockpit would equal double internal structure level of the cockpit. Since the internal structure levels in MWO have increased, the factor 2 might have to be reduced somewhat to counterbalance.
2) Higher sensor efficiency: Faster mech detection time (range is BAP feature), longer missile lock retaining time after loss of LOS. Maybe slightly reduced ECM effect and additional second zoom level (low). No weapon precision bonus, no locking time reduction.
3) Second target locking: by functional key, a target can be "stored", and a second one targeted by "R"-key. The pilot now may switch between the stored and active targets by hotkey. When switching to a stored target, previously attained missile locks apply instantly. If the stored target leaves sensor range or is getting masked by ECM, the target is lost.
4) Tactical marking: When the pilot is leader of a lance or a team, he may designate a target to be target of preference by a hotkey, which will communicate that to all lance/team mechs, resulting in a visual indication on HUD target marking.
5) See-through tactical map display on HUD: by hotkey, tactical map can be displayedas HUD overlay. This allows better tactical overview and reduces the time needed for issuing lance/team commands.

The amount of each effect would be needed to be fine-tuned to not disturb balance.

[Dawnstealer]

Cimarb, on 24 June 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

I am also a fan of the Command Console providing an extra module slot, and still think it should be required to equip arty/air.

I don't agree about the module slot every 21,500xp, though. That just creates an ever-growing gap between a new and veteran player, similar to how the gear gap at max level in WoW was/is.

So maybe have be geometric? Have the 2nd module slot be 43,000, the 3rd would cost 86,000, etc.

Just some sort of reward to players who play the same mech over and over, some sort of goal to shoot for rather than grinding for nothing.

[Cimarb]

Dawnstealer, on 24 June 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

So maybe have be geometric? Have the 2nd module slot be 43,000, the 3rd would cost 86,000, etc.

Just some sort of reward to players who play the same mech over and over, some sort of goal to shoot for rather than grinding for nothing.

I actually think, once you master a mech, it should go in a completely different direction. Instead of more modules, give me something that makes my mastered mech UNIQUE. For instance, I have hundreds of thousands of XP in my Heavy Metal. Let me use that XP to add decals, display the mechs unique designator in combat (like how a Heavy Metal is labeled that, not as a Highlander). Let me make my mech more personalized externally as I perfect it.

[Dawnstealer]

Cimarb, on 24 June 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

I actually think, once you master a mech, it should go in a completely different direction. Instead of more modules, give me something that makes my mastered mech UNIQUE. For instance, I have hundreds of thousands of XP in my Heavy Metal. Let me use that XP to add decals, display the mechs unique designator in combat (like how a Heavy Metal is labeled that, not as a Highlander). Let me make my mech more personalized externally as I perfect it.

That would be fine, too - anything to be able to use that XP that's just sitting there. Original camo specs or decals or interior colors....

Something.

[Nihtgenga]

Cimarb, on 24 June 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

I actually think, once you master a mech, it should go in a completely different direction. Instead of more modules, give me something that makes my mastered mech UNIQUE. For instance, I have hundreds of thousands of XP in my Heavy Metal. Let me use that XP to add decals, display the mechs unique designator in combat (like how a Heavy Metal is labeled that, not as a Highlander). Let me make my mech more personalized externally as I perfect it.

Despite of it being OT in this thread, I really like the idea. By this individualization of very experienced players, even "legendary pilots" (the TRUE heros, not the special mech hardpoints) can be created, adding to game experience/immersion.

[Fire and Salt]

Improve the target info effect of the command console to 50% and remove the zoom buff.
Maybe improve the range boost. Now you have something that is useful for target calling, not sniping.

It would also be cool if you expanded the hollow triangle / filled triangle functionality so that a slightly different icon would be used for the mech targeted by someone with a command console. This might be OP, though, so you would need to reduce the other buffs.





Now, on to the TC.

My biggest gripe is the projectile speed boost. Does not make sense IMO.
Also, it discourages using diverse builds, because it will cause people to fear becoming adjusted to the wrong projectile speed.

Instead of buffing projectile speed -
Ballistics: remove bullet drop completely. This simulates the TC compensating for drop out to max range, just as the current mechaninc simulates the mech compensating for it out to effective range.
PPCs: for cases where one of the 2.5 splash goes unused (ex: you shoot an arm) some of this 2.5 is applied back to the main component. This will have no effect on torsos, but will make it a little easier to destroy arms. This rewards strategically disarming a target - something the tc is supposed to help with.


I also dislike the range boost for lasers. That does not seem like a thing that a targeting computer would do. Maybe you could mess with the damage per tick instead.
Say a laser does .15 per tick.
Change it so that it does .16 for the first tick and .14 for the last tick. Larger TCs effect more ticks. This will concentrate damage in the same way pulse lasers do - but more subtlety.




The crit % buffs are sensible (The concept - not sure about the numbers yet). I do not share the concern of others that it adds more luck to the game. Consider - if it boosted crit % to 100% - it would remove luck somewhat (though what component gets hit is still luck). Though I dislike luck in a skill based game, I consider crit chances to be a necessary evil in a mechwarrior game. The only other solution would be to add hit boxes for each weapon and component installed - wow that would be a lot of work.

[Fire and Salt]

Nihtgenga, on 24 June 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Despite of it being OT in this thread, I really like the idea. By this individualization of very experienced players, even "legendary pilots" (the TRUE heros, not the special mech hardpoints) can be created, adding to game experience/immersion.

Disagree so much.

It would cause all competitive players to use one mech and only one mech, until they had all modules on it.
It would remove the strategic choice and replace it with major grinding.
Also, you will see much less mech diversity as all the competitive players will be grinding their victors for months.

[Cimarb]

Fire and Salt, on 24 June 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Disagree so much.

It would cause all competitive players to use one mech and only one mech, until they had all modules on it.
It would remove the strategic choice and replace it with major grinding.
Also, you will see much less mech diversity as all the competitive players will be grinding their victors for months.

They do that anyways... This would just be giving a non-gameplay benefit to all that playing.

[Huanglong]

Maybe someone mentioned it here already... wasn't able to read through all the posts... but why not increase accuracy by instead of higher projectile speed but by displaying a predicted position and make this more precise with higher versions... like the higher your TC rating is the more you can rely on that point... or it get's closer to hit the center torso instead of just hitting somewhere... another idea make it a circle, wich get's smaller with higher versions... so you have a big circle that says "shoot somewhere in this area and you may hit the mech" and then the smallest is like "shoot here and you most likely hit the mech" so you increase somewhat the accuracy but also it still requieres some skill to actually hit the target

Edited by Huanglong, 24 June 2014 - 12:07 PM.

[Cest7]

Sooo... command console is going to be a heavier, crappier version of the targeting computer with no unique usage?

[sarcasm]

[/sarcasm]

[Yokomohoyo]

NeoAres, on 23 June 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

I saw this type of programming in use in X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter way way back, for those of you who remember that game. The shipboard computer would calculate, pretty accurately, where you had to aim your reticle in order to hit a moving target in front of you. The reticle would turn green when it was in the proper spot and, barring a sharp direction change from the opponent, would hit.

Awesome idea, this is exactly what I had in mind. As an added benefit it will take away some of the low tech feeling in MechWarrior Online with 1990s technology. Good sensors are essential for the high tech feeling of a game and having a computer that can track a target for you is an excellent sensor that gives a high tech feeling.

Edited by Yokomohoyo, 24 June 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Cimarb, on 24 June 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

I don't agree. Your argument would be valid if every build/chassis was the exact same, but they aren't. You learn your mechs, and their quirks, through practice. If you want to be better, and more accurate, then find a good build for your mech and learn it. Once you have done that, the projectile speed increase is an accuracy benefit, like it should be. It makes plenty of sense to me.

That's exactly my point though. Not every build or chassis will be the same. Not every build or chassis will carry a TC, or even the same class of TC. That means not only will each have different piloting characteristics, the same weapon transferred between mechs will behave differently as well. It will be even harder to switch to a different mech or pick up a new one, unless you stick the same class of TC in each mech you own, which is dumb. This encourages players to find a mech and stick to it, ignoring the rest. This discourages experimentation, and discourages people from playing new mechs, which PGI definitely wouldn't want.

Also, the projectile speed, beam range, and crit bonuses don't make any goddamn sense. Slapping a computer on a gun doesn't suddenly make it more powerful. I feel the same way about the module system as well. Nonsensical.

[Jabilac]

I think it would add to the "Command" idea of the"Command Console" to allow you to target your team mates and see what load-out they have. I am also a fan of an extra "Module" slot being part of the fuction of the Command Console.

Targeting computers shouldn't add to the projectile speed or weapon range simply because a targeting computer doesn't really have anything to do with those parts of a weapon. It should make it easier to target your enemy with your weapons. I think it should come with a minimum to time lock but once locked should enable your projectile shots to hit where your reticle points by adjusting the firing angle of the gun relative to the reticle. Now the projectile would still have to travel to the target so any changes your enemy made between when you fired your gun and when the bullet got to target would still effect the hit location. Each level of system should be able to adjust more then one weapon speed. Mk1 can adjust one weapon type. Mk 2 can adjust 2 and so on.

[Lead Sponge]

I think the targeting computer stats seem reasonable. I don't really have a problem with them.

For the Command Computer, it really doesn't seem like much and feels a bit throwaway. It doesn't really show how the Inner Sphere fights as a team. I would actually like to see it be a command tool, that differentiates the Inner Sphere from the Clans. Where the Clans are all about personal honor and glory, the Inner Sphere is all about coordination and cooperation.

There's a few ways you could handle it.

It could function like ECM except provide bonuses to those around them. Maybe even create a unique slot for it like what you've done with the targeting computer. It could even have toggle that are changed like the ECM's disrupt/jam feature.

The other thing that would be nice if it had additional command functionality. Something like declaring targets, allowing the commander to drop waypoints on the map for their lance/company. They might even be able to drop an entire path with a series of nav points that update as you reach them.

Basically, if someone has the command computer and they function like the commander from Battlefield, and they're able to basically coordinate their forces. You might even limit the Company commander to players who have the command computer (anyone can be lance commander).

Then the commander and the players could get bonus XP and C-Bills for actually following the orders of their commander. Look at MAG for a good example of that.

Possibilities for Command Computer:

• Area of Effect Buff for all units within range similar to ECM.
  
• Ability to Mark Priority Targets for your lance or company.
  
• Ability to Mark Defense Point without being in the map view.
  
• Mark locations for air strikes and artillery strikes.
  
• Ability to lay down a series of waypoints for your lancemates or company.
  
• C-Bill/XP Bonus for following orders.

It would give the Inner Sphere a distinct style, and really encourage players to coordinate and plan a bit. As you get your social systems more robust, you could even have a system for players to rate a commander and also vote for who gets to be commander.

[Nihtgenga]

AoE Buff of weapons by extra command gear? Computer-aided aiming changing ballistic firing range? Yeah, great - then we're finally completely rid of physics, BT and on WoW with Mech-Look mod...

[Bryant Oneal]

As Lead Sponge already suggested:

Why not make the CC work similar to ECM, so it covers an area of 180m around the mech and the CC benefits apply to all friendly IS mechs in that radius.

This way it would differ from the TC of the clans and emphasises IS teamwork vs Clan individualsim and does not render the CC (almoust) useless. It would also fit the name "command console" much more if it had an area effect and benefit for allied IS mechs.

And physics are out from the beginning - a gauss (or ac2.etc) having a (100kg!!!!) projectile traveling at/up to 2000m/second and then miraculously loosing all its kenetic energy after 1980 m. Such a projectile would retain most of its destructive energy way over 5000m and beyond, without atmosphere almoust indefenitly.
Or a AC20 explosive shell suddenly does not do explosive damage beyond 540m ??
A "machinegun" doing NO damage beyond 240m (with a 0,5kg slug!!!!) ? A rifle can do damage way beyond that.....

So forget physics in this game. It's the tabletop rules, not the real world.

Edited by Bryant Oneal, 26 June 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[Kitty Bacon]

I would love to see the CC give AoE benefits to nearby allies. It would make mechs able to carry it feel more like they should in Lore. If the same bonuses are applied to allies in a 180m range, it would make it worth it to carry the CC into battle on an Atlas. Plus it would make the IS feel more unique apart from the Clans.

Edited by Blue doqyn, 26 June 2014 - 04:04 PM.