Clan ER PPC max range in lore.
690 meters (and that's with the highest chance of missing).
(Unlike the ACs, this was a limitation with the weapon. ACs, ultras, etc., the range was due to both the strong recoil involved with firing tank-sized projectiles rapidly along with the inaccuracy of movement).
Clan ER PPC max range in MWO
1,620 meters or greater (based on Inner Sphere's Clan ER PPC max range) >.>
Standard PPC in MWO
1,080 meters.
First, you have no clue about weapon balance and good or bad for weapons. The only thing that counts are the 10 damage on the CERPPC. The splash can be ignored for min maxing. This weapons sucks compared to the IS PPC.
Second, range above 800 meters doesn't matter for PPCs. with that slow as **** projectile you wont hit a barndoor that is running down alpine.
Third, neither range nor tonnage nor crit slots justifies these 15 heat on any ER PPC. Thats why noone uses more than a single one. These 1.4 heat sinks hold down energy weapons since forever whereas ballistics shine. High DPS no heat and their weight is no issues considered that you would need even more heatsinks to sustain an energy weapon in weight.
People tend to forget that with the heat dissipation bonuses, you basically are getting your 2.0 DHS. Of course, people still complain, so if they gave the true 2.0 DHS, then they should implement the true heat scale as well and guess what, PGI did a pretty good job going with Solaris VII rules, so if the true heat scale, to hit modifiers, and shutdown chances were in place, everyone would be chain firing and the matches would go a lot more slowly. Of course, they would also need to reduce ammo amounts back down since that was one of the key balances to missiles and autocannons. And then what about Clan rules of engagement? That would mean no pop tarting because that's not an honorable way to fight.
Gauss Rifle: Pretty much what I proposed for IS back in CB, but I had it limited to one at a time. You could still do this: 1 GR limit for IS mechs and a 2 GR limit for Clan.
CERPPC: Still don't see why we can't have this for IS as well at Clan.
ie. ERPPC 10 damage becomes 6 damage with 2 damage to two adjacent section (if applicable). CERPPC: 9 damage with 3 damage to two adjacent sections OR 7 damage with 4 damage to two adjacent sections.
First option make the Clan PPC significantly more dangerous to the primary hit location than its IS conterpart. The second option really spreads the damage around, while still providing a slight edge on damage to the primary hit location.
LRMs: to be honest with the recent problem that occurred in the patch to LRMs with scaling damage, I'm not surprised this is being delayed by a patch.
AC/LB-X: Can't wait for you to resolve ammo switching.
First, you have no clue about weapon balance and good or bad for weapons. The only thing that counts are the 10 damage on the CERPPC. The splash can be ignored for min maxing. This weapons sucks compared to the IS PPC.
Second, range above 800 meters doesn't matter for PPCs. with that slow as **** projectile you wont hit a barndoor that is running down alpine.
Third, neither range nor tonnage nor crit slots justifies these 15 heat on any ER PPC. Thats why noone uses more than a single one. These 1.4 heat sinks hold down energy weapons since forever whereas ballistics shine. High DPS no heat and their weight is no issues considered that you would need even more heatsinks to sustain an energy weapon in weight.
First. You'd be quite surprised. I actually called the splash mechanic over a year ago, not only that, but I also called the exploitation that would come with the splash mechanic. "If it splashes to two adjascent locations, then I'm going to shoot the arm. 8 damage there, 7 to the side torso. That way I can focus it a lot heavier than 8, 3.5 and 3.5." Koniving, December, 2012.
Here they went 10 and 5 (2.5, 2.5) and they took my exploit called 2 years ago and removed it.
Second. Range above "810 meters doesn't matter" is what you were looking for. However, in the poptart Twin PPC + AC/5 meta, I'm seeing people them shooting at over 1,000 meters to get any kind of damage they can when there are no close-by threats. And they don't have any trouble hitting. Those regular PPCs by your logic "aren't worth bothering with beyond 540 meters" though. Kinda sorry your aim blows, but hey that's why people lead targets.
That "slow projectile" is travelling at 1,500 meters per second. So it'll be there at its maximum range in less than 1 second.
Third. You're right, neither of them do. What justifies it is the risk/reward. An ER PPC doesn't have a risk of self-damage, which is why it's so hot in lore. It also is that hot for a reason. Keep in mind, in the source material a large laser is supposed to be 9 heat and only 8 damage. The only reason it is not is because PGI changed it. The reason they changed it is the beam time mechanic instead of instant damage. So in theory since the damage isn't completely frontloaded, they could change the ER PPC heat down.
Lore reasons and missing mechanics.
---------------
Now. The reason a PPC is so much colder is it has a field inhibitor and a capacitor. The capacitor references a charge-up mechanic that doesn't exist. In relation, the inhibitor prevents self-damage by making the charge-up take longer. Both of these mechanics are missing from MWO. The precious standard PPC isn't as great as you think, if PGI could do something, somehow, correctly.
Now while the ER PPC also had a capacitor (also implying a 'charge-up' as referenced in the Smith and Tinker ["the people from the original FASA"] game Mechwarrior Tactical Command and the books), the ER PPC has no need for a field inhibitor and thus it would be shorter, therefore there is no minimum range penalty in TT.
Said regular PPC would get MUCH HOTTER if you flipped off the field inhibitor, but the 'charge time' would have been reduced enough to remove the to hit penalty modifier for its range.
---------------
With those proper mechanics in, it wouldn't matter how cold the regular PPC is, even if it were colder than a medium laser. You'd still favor the ER PPC as the superior weapon.
However, through testing on the heat simulator even with ghost heat, I've taken the Warhawk's build and after trading the LRMs from the Warhawk prime, using that for extra DHS, I was able to easily alpha strike all 4 ER PPCS with ghost heat and not shut down. Clan thresholds are just astonishingly amazing.
(Pfft. Ghost heat is freaking worthless).
GaiDaigoji, on 08 June 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:
People tend to forget that with the heat dissipation bonuses, you basically are getting your 2.0 DHS. Of course, people still complain, so if they gave the true 2.0 DHS, then they should implement the true heat scale as well and guess what, PGI did a pretty good job going with Solaris VII rules, so if the true heat scale, to hit modifiers, and shutdown chances were in place, everyone would be chain firing and the matches would go a lot more slowly. Of course, they would also need to reduce ammo amounts back down since that was one of the key balances to missiles and autocannons. And then what about Clan rules of engagement? That would mean no pop tarting because that's not an honorable way to fight.
Not a fan of Solaris VII rules, but.. You are absolutely correct. To be accurate...
17 DHS TT.
3.4/sec cooling, 30 threshold.
17 DHS MWO (from heat simulator, my own calculation doesn't have as many decimals and instead comes out to 71.76 (30 threshold + 10*2 + 7*1.4 + 20% = 71.76)
Cooling Rate : 3.43 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 71.75999999999999 Heat sim.
the true heat scale, (to hit modifies could be covered in the pinpoint solution I had), lower ammo, shutdown risks, ammunition explosion risks, etc. would have made incredible balance to this game.
Did you know MWO had something similar in closed beta? 80% heat (sustained for several seconds) = internal equipment damage (heatsinks, weapons, ammunition. No idea how it worked but heatsinks would die on the indicator and you'd see the results of it. Bishop recalls dying at 85% heat from an ammo explosion without any damage). 90% would run random shutdown risks (O would prevent them). At 100% it was guaranteed but it could happen at any point in time above 90% (but was sufficiently rare enough that no one complained as you had to stay above 90% for 3 to 5 seconds).
The original pilot skill regarding threshold would increase the shutdown risk threshold instead of your maximum heat threshold. At the time of the Cataphract release, with just the right (low) number of heatsinks, that would push it above 100%, preventing any shutdown until the 100+% instant ammo explosion punishment. Shortly after PGI made major heat system changes to something that brought about the 6 PPC stalker issues.
The changed heat mechanics on release day. (Before override just powered you up faster if you shutdown and prevented random shutdown; but never told you about this and override would NEVER prevent a shutdown at 100%. Note long before the changes, the internal equipment damage mechanics were being removed [players kept reporting them as bugs because PGI never explained it]. After, it tells you about the override and it will override a shutdown past 100% at the cost of internal damage.
I'm glad I only bought the Nova package. If they still sell the packages a couple of weeks after launch, I might upgrade to the Daishi package, but as it stands now, they are not worth it. The PPC nerf and the lack of customization is too much.
Keep in mind, in the source material a large laser is supposed to be 9 heat and only 8 damage. The only reason it is not is because PGI changed it. The reason they changed it is the beam time mechanic instead of instant damage. So in theory since the damage isn't completely frontloaded, they could change the ER PPC heat down.
Wrong. The Large Laser is 8 heat and 8 damage in TT.
PGI changed the heat and damage because they made lasers hitscan instead of FLD. That, and their busted heat system.
I'm glad I only bought the Nova package. If they still sell the packages a couple of weeks after launch, I might upgrade to the Daishi package, but as it stands now, they are not worth it. The PPC nerf and the lack of customization is too much.
Don't refund it. Then you'll be stuck in crappy IS mechs. Gross.
People tend to forget that with the heat dissipation bonuses, you basically are getting your 2.0 DHS. Of course, people still complain, so if they gave the true 2.0 DHS, then they should implement the true heat scale as well and guess what, PGI did a pretty good job going with Solaris VII rules, so if the true heat scale, to hit modifiers, and shutdown chances were in place, everyone would be chain firing and the matches would go a lot more slowly. Of course, they would also need to reduce ammo amounts back down since that was one of the key balances to missiles and autocannons. And then what about Clan rules of engagement? That would mean no pop tarting because that's not an honorable way to fight.
No, you're not getting DHS 2.0 from the bonuses. Extra DHS with the Mastery bonus are 1.6 normal value, but it's the 2xRecharge on large size weapons that are not matched by a 2x cooling rate for MWO's heatsinks that cause the imbalance with Battletech weapon balancing.
To match MWO's 2xRecharge on all weapons, Battletech weapon balance would have the Lasers and PPCs being cooled at twice the rate of MWO, but keeping the same maximum heat thresholds. Problem is the Mechs in MWO are so weak to damage that the game would absolutely implode as mechs were destroyed in 10 to 15 seconds. However, your AWS-9M and Warhawk would work as well as your Victors and Highlanders.
So the real problem is the paper thin armor the Mechs acquire from 2xRecharge and this is where the game needs to be fixed. This really should have been done before the Clan Invasion because now everything is being nerfed on this lopsided balance between Energy and Ballistics/Missiles.
That was done by hand. The heat sim gave me this.
Cooling Rate : 3.27 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 70.08
We'll use the heat sim's version, it gets its info directly from the game.
Threshold comparison: 16 DHS.
TT: 30 (With no cooling, 3 standard PPCs = shutdown).
MWO: 70.08 (With no cooling, 7 standard PPCs = shutdown). (Anyone ever wondered why alpha strikes are a problem in MWO?)
Cooling comparison.
TT: 3.2/sec.
MWO: 3.27/sec.
MWO is faster. But only if you have an elited mech and a 250 engine or greater. If you do not, you are punished by the game.
MWO: 16 DHS but a 150 engine instead.
Cooling Rate : 2.35 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 60.48
That's still with the mech elited.
MWO: And this is a 16 DHS 250 engine (so same as original) but with a brand new mech (no skills).
People are going to be in for a big shock when it comes to Clans and heat. Two slot heatsinks are not going to be the saviors that they are hoping for.
[redacted] Clan mechs are highly uncostumizeable (even though they should be the exact OPPOSITE compared to IS mechs). You have mostly less space in crit slots and tonnage to play with so you dearly need lighter smaller weapons. You are not more armed especially with these nerfs you are less armed that IS mechs.
Considering the clans actual numbers, when they invaded the IS in lore with these jokes they could have also used loincloth and stones.
I don't want clans mechs to be OP but this is taking it too far.
[redacted]
Geee... Being able to put any weapon in any Omni pod slot so, that counts as 'highly uncustomisable' to you ?
If PGI had thought about it better they could have made retro fitting IS mech cost Cbills and time.. (Not just the cost of the equipment and instatenous changes..)
Well they didn't do that.. Now much of advantages Omni tech is suppose to have, doesn't make sense.
Now your whining how your P2W clan package is actually getting balance.. HAHA.. Why don't you just go surrender yourself to be the bondsman of the nearest clanner.. FedRat SCUM!
Edited by Egomane, 09 June 2014 - 08:57 AM. quote cleaned up, removed insulting response
Since the head is connected to the front and rear central torso, and the leg is connected to the same you would hope that there is where the damage go....
reading about all this splash damage reminds me of the "Dem Bones" song :X
LBX's? decent attempt at fixing but this feature should have been implemented.
LRMs? Honestly the idea of a damage ramp on a missile weapon is just ridiculous to me from a logic stand point. Rather then arming at launch have their LRMs arm at 100m. Still gives them an advantage over IS LRMs but not so blatantly over powered. Or give them a large spread inside the 0-180 meters which makes them less of a threat in that distance (I said less of not no threat).
ERPPC - Interesting fix...for a weapon that unfortunately rarely gets used because of its ridiculously high heat.
So pointless.
CLRM's - So they will have the IS minimum range until they are "fixed" and are just not worth firing under the minimum range...and no foreseeable fix for LRM's ever being worth using at all really
So pointless.
I like the limited Gauss charge though (not the actual Gauss charge mechanism).
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Koniving, on 08 June 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:
Thank you. 
