62 replies to this topic

[Reitrix]

Should be determined by Sensor range.

Currently, I can see a 'Mech trundling along at 3km. I can even identify exactly what that 'mech is, at that distance.
That does not feel right to me. Particularly on Alpine. Why scout when your Atlas can see the entire enemy team and the direction they're going in, AND ID each 'Mech ... From the spawn points!

We have 3 Vision modes,
-Normal, For everything. No range limit
-Thermal, For low visibility conditions. 750 range hard limit.
-Night Vision, For poor light conditions. 750 range hard limit.

I'm curious to know if anyone would support reducing Normal Mode's vision radius to match the 750 of Thermal and Night, But that Sensor Upgrades would extend the range at which you can see a 'Mech as well as being able to Radar detect them at that range?

It would have the side effect of making your settings irrelevant for view distance. I know many players run the game on minimum in order to remove things like trees and other ground clutter when taking sniping shots (as well as the normal FPS boosts) so that you can't hide a small 'mech like the Locust or Commando in the shrubbery.

Would also make camo somewhat effective at hiding your 'Mech in the Terrain when you're at the edges of someones vision radius, as i would imagine a kind of fade in as you approach their vision range,

[Impyrium]

Erm... again, this kind of defeats the purpose of having range restrictions on the 'special' views. Also, the game would look even worse than it does with some sort of 'fog' that lowers view distance.

Don't see the logic in this, sorry. Lights can scout because of their speed and size, not because of how far they can see.

[Khobai]

Agreed.

Either:
1) sensor range should be increased to be longer than visual range
-or-
2) mechs should not be visible until theyre in sensor range

Being able to see enemy mechs before you detect them largely defeats the purpose of sensors. It basically removes sensor warfare from ever being a part of the game since you never really need sensors to spot the enemy in the first place.

Edited by Khobai, 10 June 2014 - 11:05 PM.

[El Bandito]

The idea is fine and all, but I really wish PGI would let me show off the dashing purple color of my mechs from a distance.

[Reitrix]

Khobai, on 10 June 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Agreed.

Either:
1) sensor range should be increased to be longer than visual range
-or-
2) mechs should not be visible until theyre in sensor range

Being able to see enemy mechs before you detect them largely defeats the purpose of sensors. It basically removes sensor warfare from ever being a part of the game since you never really need sensors to spot the enemy in the first place.

Essentially, our eyeballs re outperforming the Sensors.

Btw, i'm not asking for a "fog of war" type obfuscation, Terrain is visible to the naked eye for a silly distance even IRL. Don't need sensors to see a big rock in the distance.
All I'm asking is that the 'Mechs themselves fade in/out on the edges of Sensor Range.
Under such a scheme, Lights could actually Scout, without the Enemy spotting them from 2+kms away and then moving to intercept them. Their own Lights would need to range out and find them.
I honestly think that could add in a tactical layer to positioning we currently don't have. It would also allow non-ECM Lights to fulfill the Spotter role for LRMs if he packed in Sensor Boost modules, BAP and other items that increase Sensor range beyond the Normal, because that Light isn't going to be spotted the very instant the guy turns around and sees the gigantic black silhouette of said Light starkly contrasting the Terrain around him.

[Kotzi]

You can see further than 3 klicks. Especialy when you are several meters above ground. The higher the further. And a Mech is not that small so its reasonable to be able to spot any Mechs within that range, some harder some easier.

[Kilo 40]

Reitrix, on 10 June 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

Currently, I can see a 'Mech trundling along at 3km. I can even identify exactly what that 'mech is, at that distance.
That does not feel right to me. Particularly on Alpine.

That feels right to me, especially on Alpine.

[l33tworks]

What are you talking about? You want mechs to be invisible then appear out of thin air when they reach sensor range? Lol this isnt predator.

[darkkterror]

I can't say I like the idea of Mechs magically disappearing just because they're beyond a certain range.

[El Bandito]

darkkterror, on 10 June 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

I can't say I like the idea of Mechs magically disappearing just because they're beyond a certain range.

Not disappearing, just blurry enough to be confused about the chassis type--is what OP is suggesting.

[Zeriniel]

I think it's less about visual range, and more about two other things.
Map Design
How Sensors work.

First, either the maps are too small to care (River City/Forest/snow city) , large but open (Alpine/tourmaline), or are large and twisty (Mordor/Tatooine).

The first set you can see the other team from spawn. The second set, well, essentially the same thing, just further. The third presents the only real "you may not see the other team for a minute, except everyone fights in the same spots".

This leads into how sensors work. In most games, sensors allow you to pick up enemies WITHOUT LOS. In MWO, short of the mystical C3 ultra system in every mech, you have to have LOS to target one. usually the reason for active and passive sensors - Active you can pick up further, but you can also be picked up further. Passive lowers your profile, but also your detect range.

Without a system like that, Sensors are largely useless in a long distance fight, and are better paired with things like Seismic to see who's around you, and who's targeted.

[FatYak]

Personally, i think alpine peaks needs a revamp, i think it would be great if all the low areas were filled with a dense fog with just the peaks of the ridges and hills in the sunlight, would kinda make a two tiered level.


Would indirectly solve the long distance issue on that map, and allow for some interesting flanking movement concealed in fog

[Kotzi]

Thats part of the fun advancing without exposing yourself. I dont want sensors telling me every enemy in the vicinity. It is good that you have to rely on other things too. Dont make it easier than it is now. Anything in your FoV without cover is marked as a red triangle no matter if the pilot has seen him or not.

Edited by Kotzi, 10 June 2014 - 11:59 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Thats part of the fun advancing without exposing yourself. I dont want sensors telling me every enemy in the vicinity. It is good that you have to rely on your other things too. Dont make it easier than it is now. Anything in your FoV without cover is marked as a red triangle no matter if the pilot has seen him or not.

It wouldnt be easier. Because it paves the way for sensor warfare. Cloaking your sensor presence would become a part of the game.

Unlike now where you can just be seen by someone using their eyes and sensors dont matter at all. The way it is now sensor warfare can NEVER be a part of the game.

[Reitrix]

Kotzi, on 10 June 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Thats part of the fun advancing without exposing yourself. I dont want sensors telling me every enemy in the vicinity. It is good that you have to rely on other things too. Dont make it easier than it is now. Anything in your FoV without cover is marked as a red triangle no matter if the pilot has seen him or not.

Except that currently, on the larger maps cover is virtually non existent. unless you hug the outside edges of Tourmaline, anyone looking at the center area can see exactly where the Enemy is.

You cannot cross that center area at all without being eyeballed by someone clear across the map. Sensors be damned, i now know exactly where your team is going and where i need to be to intercept you. Tourmaline is like a figure eight, that space in the middle is an intersection you can't avoid detection crossing.

Cut down the Visual Range, and you can actually sneak left out of the southern base, and cross to where the downed Dropship is, without alerting the entire enemy team to your intent... 10 seconds after they spawn!

Sensors are basically useless currently. Its handy in a brawling knifefight to find an exposed Torso, but for actual information gathering/scouting purposes? your eyeballs are better. And that just doesn't feel right to me.

FatYak, on 10 June 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Personally, i think alpine peaks needs a revamp, i think it would be great if all the low areas were filled with a dense fog with just the peaks of the ridges and hills in the sunlight, would kinda make a two tiered level.


Would indirectly solve the long distance issue on that map, and allow for some interesting flanking movement concealed in fog

I actually support this, lol. But i would modify it, random snowstorms like we get in Frozen City would be pretty awesome rather than generic fogs.

[darkkterror]

El Bandito, on 10 June 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

Not disappearing, just blurry enough to be confused about the chassis type--is what OP is suggesting.

That's not the impression I got from his posts. It seems to me that he wants Mechs to completely vanish, not only so you cannot identify the Mech in question, but also so that you cannot tell there's even a Mech there. He wants Mechs to be able to stay out of vision so they can sneak up and flank. Now that's an admirable goal, but I don't like the approach. I'm not one to typically complain about breaks in immersion, but Mechs vanishing a-la infantry render distance in Planetside 2 is something that's going to bother me.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of trying to improve sneaking and flanking, but I don't like the idea of setting some defined visual range to do it. I would much rather have current maps redesigned a little to provide more cover and more avenues of approach that cannot be seen from spawn locations or commonly traveled sections of the map.

[Marmon Rzohr]

This kind of change would be very drastic, but it might serve the game quite well. Spotting mechanics would be even more pronounced if a change like this was implemented.

It might be cool for PGI to test changes like this at some point.

[Kilo 40]

Reitrix, on 11 June 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

Except that currently, on the larger maps cover is virtually non existent. unless you hug the outside edges of Tourmaline, anyone looking at the center area can see exactly where the Enemy is.

You cannot cross that center area at all without being eyeballed by someone clear across the map.

the center of the map is not THE map. there is tons of cover on each and every map, from Tourmaline to Alpine to every other one.

[Kibble]

PGI should implement the World of Tanks spotting mechanic.

[Zeriniel]

Kilo 40, on 11 June 2014 - 01:02 AM, said:

the center of the map is not THE map. there is tons of cover on each and every map, from Tourmaline to Alpine to every other one.

Tell that to every PUG team in the world.