62 replies to this topic

[l33tworks]

Randodan, on 11 June 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

Much bigger maps would help that issue, I believe.

Not really, you would just have to walk further and take longer to get to action, be annoyed, be sniped from more random locations etc. We need a city map where an enemy can be just around the corner with no escape. And I don't mean like river city or frozen city which as not cities at all, I mean new york style skyscrapers everywhere arrange in a grid pattern. All these large terrain maps are just spawning nothing but poptart playstyle.

Randodan, on 11 June 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

Thermal Imaging should burn through fog easily, albeit its range should be affected a bit.

Its already at 700m, so that would be perfect for what is being discussed about the fog providing cover.

Edited by l33tworks, 11 June 2014 - 07:07 AM.

[Zeriniel]

Randodan, on 11 June 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

Thermal Imaging should burn through fog easily, albeit its range should be affected a bit.

That would actually be pretty cool. A foggy map with low visibility that you have to use thermal on?

Ha, just reminded me of the days of the old thermals, when you were handicapping yourself if you WEREN'T using them. (for those who weren't there for that, it pretty much blacked out the map, and turned mechs into easily visible rainbows. Unlimited range)

[Eddrick]

What to see how that works? Have the same Sensor Dependant people on your team I get stuck with. These people literaly don't ever notice something that doesn't have a red triangle over thier head. They can pass right by someone that is Shot Down and never notice them.

ECM becomes a problem and becomes a requierment to win (again). Because, it allows them to know where you are. But, you don't know where they are. Allowing them to move freely around the map unnoticed. Making flank and ambush tactics way to easy.

All it would really do is bring the more observent players down to a lower level.

Edited by Eddrick, 11 June 2014 - 07:27 AM.

[Screech]

You could push out sensor range a little but is would need to be based off of chasis. Set current range for lights and then heavier mechs could be spotted farther out.

Rest of the suggestions are garbage. I don't want to go back to playing this game in thermal. It looks like **** and completely dumb down the game for range shooting.

[Red King]

If you're worried about being spotted then why not use camouflage? Even in larger mechs I'm often overlooked as I'm blending more with the terrain and buildings

[Eddrick]

An even better way to experiance the suggested example is to play on Frozen City Snow Storm. No one can see very far.

[Zeriniel]

Eddrick, on 11 June 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

What to see how that works? Have the same Sensor Dependant people on your team I get stuck with. These people literaly don't ever notice something that doesn't have a red triangle over thier head. They can pass right by someone that is Shot Down and never notice them.

ECM becomes a problem and becomes a requierment to win (again). Because, it allows them to know where you are. But, you don't know where they are. Allowing them to move freely around the map unnoticed. Making flank and ambush tactics way to easy.

All it would really do is bring the more observent players down to a lower level.

Which, as has been stated since its inception, could be fixed my not making the Guardian ECM an invisibility bubble, and more to its canon purpose. But it's "working as intended".

Screech, on 11 June 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

You could push out sensor range a little but is would need to be based off of chasis. Set current range for lights and then heavier mechs could be spotted farther out.

Rest of the suggestions are garbage. I don't want to go back to playing this game in thermal. It looks like **** and completely dumb down the game for range shooting.

That's how its supposed to work. Lighter mechs have greater sensor range, and a smaller signature. Vise Versa for larger mechs. And Passive radar has less of an effect on larger mechs as well.

Edited by Zeriniel, 11 June 2014 - 07:38 AM.

[Fut]

Zeriniel, on 11 June 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Again, it's less about Sensors vs Eyeballs (although having real Active/Passive sensor system would add a layer of depth to the cat and mouse games), and more about level design. You should not be fired upon within the first few seconds of the match. And the levels should be so obtuse that everyone either has to head down the same paths to find the enemy, or there's nowhere to maneuver through without being seen.

So demand better map design, not some bizzarro solution were you magically make my eyeballs worse.

[Eddrick]

Zeriniel, on 11 June 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

Which, as has been stated since its inception, could be fixed my not making the Guardian ECM an invisibility bubble, and more to its canon purpose. But it's "working as intended".




That's how its supposed to work. Lighter mechs have greater sensor range, and a smaller signature. Vise Versa for larger mechs. And Passive radar has less of an effect on larger mechs as well.

ECM needs to be changed before any kind of change to visual range can be used.

I would be ok with smaller Mechs being harder to detect compared to bigger ones. Only after a change to ECM, of course. However, like others have stated. Much bigger maps can accomplish the same thing. Giving Lights a real purpose and giving some people a reason not to take bigger Mechs.

[Zeriniel]

Fut, on 11 June 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

So demand better map design, not some bizzarro solution were you magically make my eyeballs worse.

Uh, I wasn't espousing the bizarro eyeball nerfs. I've been talking about sensor improvements and map design this entire time.

[Fut]

Zeriniel, on 11 June 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Uh, I wasn't espousing the bizarro eyeball nerfs. I've been talking about sensor improvements and map design this entire time.

My apologies.
Still all amped-up from the original suggestion, all I'm seeing is red now.

[Sug]

Not being mean, just honest, this is one of the worst ideas I've heard in 2 years of playing MWO forums.

[Almond Brown]

darkkterror, on 11 June 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

That's not the impression I got from his posts. It seems to me that he wants Mechs to completely vanish, not only so you cannot identify the Mech in question, but also so that you cannot tell there's even a Mech there. He wants Mechs to be able to stay out of vision so they can sneak up and flank. Now that's an admirable goal, but I don't like the approach. I'm not one to typically complain about breaks in immersion, but Mechs vanishing a-la infantry render distance in Planetside 2 is something that's going to bother me.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of trying to improve sneaking and flanking, but I don't like the idea of setting some defined visual range to do it. I would much rather have current maps redesigned a little to provide more cover and more avenues of approach that cannot be seen from spawn locations or commonly traveled sections of the map.

And within days of such a system being put in place you would face the 999m curtain where the Gauss Riflers will step out, shoot you in the face and step then back behind the curtain. You think Pop tarting is BS? LOL! Nope, been there, seen that. Bad, bad idea.

You want to remain unseen, try Cover and if none exists, then both sides have that same disadvantage.

Edited by Almond Brown, 11 June 2014 - 09:18 AM.

[KingCobra]

Zeriniel, on 11 June 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

Yeah, but the maps back then were't hilly masses of mud piles with collision boxes that extend passed the terrain itself. Not to say the maps in MWO are bad per se, but they aren't the pinnacle of great level design. A couple are good, a couple are passable, and some are downright atrocious.

To be honest i love the MWO maps i just think there a bit small and they could use more hidding spots on some but then again the LRM missle arc is so high in MWO missles go over or through alot of obsticules on maps.

[KingCobra]

l33tworks, on 11 June 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Not really, you would just have to walk further and take longer to get to action, be annoyed, be sniped from more random locations etc. We need a city map where an enemy can be just around the corner with no escape. And I don't mean like river city or frozen city which as not cities at all, I mean new york style skyscrapers everywhere arrange in a grid pattern. All these large terrain maps are just spawning nothing but poptart playstyle.



Its already at 700m, so that would be perfect for what is being discussed about the fog providing cover.

We had a few maps in MechWarrior4 like this the most familar to most was =(INNER CITY) best brawler map ever then there was arena eygpt and many more.

MWO Vs MechWarrior4 map scale size is quite different also.

[Fut]

KingCobra, on 11 June 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

To be honest i love the MWO maps i just think there a bit small and they could use more hidding spots on some but then again the LRM missle arc is so high in MWO missles go over or through alot of obsticules on maps.

You should probably continue to move once you break LOS on the Missile-Thrower.
If you break LOS and sit exactly where you are, the missiles will go to where the last knew you were - and they'll still hit you.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I love how the arguments against fog of war esque mechanics (either sensor, visual or both) boil down to 3 things:
Immersion - because in a game where rock or dubstep plays after a kill, immersion is a thing that exists ; not to mention a game where there is no over-arcing goal. Its just a game where endlessly grind by killing guys with red triangles over their heads (the reason why modules were a ****** "endgame").

Realism - Between shot velocity, dumb missiles, attempts at balance, and the fact we are playing stompy robots we suddenly became extremely worried that it might not be realistic enough.

Because its stupid - Not even gonna bother.



As for map design, I don't think we would ever see them design a map to where sight outside of 1km is impossible. There will always be ways around that limit unless it is a built it mechanic. I don't know of many MW4 maps that didn't allow for sight outside of 1km in the means of terrain and yet MW4 had some great maps, certainly better than the MWO ones that try to corral players into some sort of engagement zone.

Edited by majora incarnate, 11 June 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[PappySmurf]

I love how the arguments against fog of war esque mechanics (either sensor, visual or both) boil down to 3 things:
Immersion - because in a game where rock or dubstep plays after a kill, immersion is a thing that exists ; not to mention a game where there is no over-arcing goal. Its just a game where endlessly grind by killing guys with red triangles over their heads (the reason why modules were a ****** "endgame").

Realism - Between shot velocity, dumb missiles, attempts at balance, and the fact we are playing stompy robots we suddenly became extremely worried that it might not be realistic enough.

Because its stupid - Not even gonna bother.



As for map design, I don't think we would ever see them design a map to where sight outside of 1km is impossible. There will always be ways around that limit unless it is a built it mechanic. I don't know of many MW4 maps that didn't allow for sight outside of 1km in the means of terrain and yet MW4 had some great maps, certainly better than the MWO ones that try to corral players into some sort of engagement zone.

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001111111111111111000000000000000000000

All I can say to you my friend is MWO is not PC MechWarrior it is COD/Battlefield2/WOT. When I last played MechWarrior4Mercinaries in MWL and NBT and all the leagues before these MWA/BZ/VL/CBT/SL/BTU there was a goal a endgame.Players enjoyed these past PC games and they were a great game design.New MMO'S just totally suck compared to past CD/PC games. Enough Said MWO maps are ok +8 but there really is to much grinding and not enough MechWarrior for me.Bring back the MSN GAMMING ZONE bring back the socialization and the leagues and MWO will start to shine like PC MechWarrior once did.

[CG Chicken Kn]

No to broken spotting mechanics ala WoT.

Just say no to badness.

[Rager Beater]

Reitrix, on 10 June 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

Should be determined by Sensor range.

Currently, I can see a 'Mech trundling along at 3km. I can even identify exactly what that 'mech is, at that distance.
That does not feel right to me. Particularly on Alpine. Why scout when your Atlas can see the entire enemy team and the direction they're going in, AND ID each 'Mech ... From the spawn points!

We have 3 Vision modes,
-Normal, For everything. No range limit
-Thermal, For low visibility conditions. 750 range hard limit.
-Night Vision, For poor light conditions. 750 range hard limit.

I'm curious to know if anyone would support reducing Normal Mode's vision radius to match the 750 of Thermal and Night, But that Sensor Upgrades would extend the range at which you can see a 'Mech as well as being able to Radar detect them at that range?

It would have the side effect of making your settings irrelevant for view distance. I know many players run the game on minimum in order to remove things like trees and other ground clutter when taking sniping shots (as well as the normal FPS boosts) so that you can't hide a small 'mech like the Locust or Commando in the shrubbery.

Would also make camo somewhat effective at hiding your 'Mech in the Terrain when you're at the edges of someones vision radius, as i would imagine a kind of fade in as you approach their vision range,

WOW OMFG SOMEONE WANTS TO TURN THIS GREAT GAME INTO WORLD OF TANKS. are you a nob from WOT? because it looks like it. PLEASE PGI DONT LISTEN TO THE BADNESS THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH WARGAMING.

because wargaming likes to suck money out of people's pockets even harder than a street ******. SO NO, NO BROKEN SPOTTING MECHANICS LIKE WOT, AND NO BROKEN RNG LIKE WOT (i know you didnt mention it, but just in case), AND NO BROKEN, UNBALANCED, **** GRAPHICS GAME LIKE WOT.

thanks and go back to wot.