27 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

Greetings everyone,

we asked for PPC splash (arcing to adjacent sections) a lot for tha last few months and we will get it for the Clan ERPPC (see command chair post).

But the IS PPC will still dominate the competitive and pug games if it stays FLD (front loaded damage. all 10 damage to one spot).

This thread shall be the place to discuss:
If we use Splash (arcing to adjacent sections) for IS PPC and IS ERPPC, how much splash and how much heat would make the weapons balanced without making it useless (compared to laser)?

We used the heat to balance out the old meta ERPPC/Gauss builds, but with the addition of Splash damage, we would have to consider the overall efficiency of the weapon with the new mechanic and old heat.

Compared to curent ERLL with 9damage/8.5heat or the LP with 10.4damage/8heat the PPC does 10/10 and the IS-ERPPC does 10damg/15 heat.
This was meant to compensate for FLD (front loaded damage, pinpoint) compared to Laser.
Laser spread more, so they are cooler and lighter.
If we add splash for PPCs, we need to reduce the heat, right?

Now there could be values like this for the 3 PPCs:
C-ERPPC 13 heat, 10 dmg +2.5 splash + 2.5 splash
IS-ERPPC 13 heat, 8 dmg +1 splash + 1 splash
IS-PPC 8 heat, 6 dmg +2 splash + 2 splash

The ERPPC for the IS would then be better focused (thats why it has longer range and no minimum range) and the splash part would be less.
With the FLD "fixed" the PPCs can do slightly less heat and the ERPPC for both sides could be used without the need to have 30+ DHS.

Please include these 5 question in your first reply for easier comparison of our opinions:
- Would you say that PPCs with splash (lets say 8+1+1) with curent heat (10) would be totally useless?
- Would you rather prefere 8+1+1dmg/10heat or 7+1.5+1.5dmg/9heat or 6+2+2dmg/8heat (or other splash/heat combination) for the PPC?
- Would you rather prefere 8+1+1dmg/10heat or 7+1.5+1.5dmg/9heat or 6+2+2dmg/8heat (or other splash/heat combination) for the IS-ERPPC?
- Would the ERLL or LP be better, equal, or still worse (for competitive builds) than the PPC in this case?
- Would you feel that the splash is a waste and the only the FLD part be what the weapon would be considered for competitive play?

Spoiler

Here are some graphs about the numbers possible for PPC (10 +0+0 or 8+1+1 or 7+1.5+1.5 or 6+2+2).
This could help understand what I described above.
In this example, a skilled player will hit 70% CT, 20% RT and 10% RA
And an average player would score only 40% of his hits to the CT, 30% to the RT and 30% to the RA.
If you would hit LA,LT,CT,RT and RA 20% of the time, the splash damage would do nothing at all to your damage spread.

Curent 10dmg (no splash) PPC
Skilled player:

Average player:



PPC 8dmg +1 +1
Skilled player:

Average player:



PPC 7dmg +1.5 +1.5
Skilled player:

Average player:



PPC 6dmg +2 +2
Skilled player:

Average player:

Edited by Reno Blade, 12 June 2014 - 07:34 AM.

[Ashaira]

Please include these 5 question in your first reply for easier comparison of our opinions:
- Would you say that PPCs with splash (lets say 8+1+1) with curent heat (10) would be totally useless?
The ERPPCs maybe the normal PPCs no. I would keep the heat and give PPC a 7/1.5/1.5 and the ERPPC 10. This would keep the weapons fairly balanced PPC's being lower heat they can be spammed more but won't do the same PP damage while the ERPPC would be the PP weapon of choice but it is hotter and not spamable.

- Would you rather prefere 8+1+1dmg/10heat or 7+1.5+1.5dmg/9heat or 6+2+2dmg/8heat (or other splash/heat combination) for the PPC?
PPC 7/1.5/1.5 10heat

- Would you rather prefere 8+1+1dmg/10heat or 7+1.5+1.5dmg/9heat or 6+2+2dmg/8heat (or other splash/heat combination) for the IS-ERPPC?
ERPPC 10/0/0 15Heat

- Would the ERLL or LP be better, equal, or still worse (for competitive builds) than the PPC in this case?
LL of any kind can't replace the PPC in the role of a sniper weapon because you can't click and hide, you have to stay exposed. LL will remain a decent weapon for begginers (it's hard to miss completly with them) but a bad weapon for snipers (hard to maintain the laser on the same point)

- Would you feel that the splash is a waste and the only the FLD part be what the weapon would be considered for competitive play?
The splash would by no means be useless. When you get to the point where PP FLD can't be flat out better than Spread DPS then splash would be apreciated for builds meant to strip armor rather than flat out kill and leave the kill for others with focused dmg.

- Do you think with the PPC at 7+1.5+1.5/10 and the ERPPC at 10+0+0/15 that people with competitive build would always use the ERPPC or mix it with PPCs?
Using the previous answers i see normal PPCs being used in higher dps builds meant for shrreding armor and ERPPC used in low dps high FLD builds meant to finish off oponents.

Edited by Ashaira, 12 June 2014 - 05:42 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Thanks for your detailed answers!

One additional question now, because you want to keep the ERPPC 10 PP.
Do you think with the PPC at 7+1.5+1.5/10 and the ERPPC at 10+0+0/15 that people with competitive build would always use the ERPPC or mix it with PPCs?
Like chaning 2PPC+2AC5 at all, or would everyone go to 2ERPPC and a Gauss or mix it up?

[Karl Streiger]

- Would you say that PPCs with splash (lets say 8+1+1) with curent heat (10) would be totally useless?
no i don't think so - its still 8 damage at once in a hit zone of choice....

- Would you rather prefere 8+1+1dmg/10heat or 7+1.5+1.5dmg/9heat or 6+2+2dmg/8heat (or other splash/heat combination) for the PPC?
i would like to see more splash to increase the effect of the ppc to be a devastating weapon rather than a scalpel so 622 but still 10 heat, maybe instead of zero damage at 90m - a cone of fire and only splash for the PPC below 90m

- Would you rather prefere 8+1+1dmg/10heat or 7+1.5+1.5dmg/9heat or 6+2+2dmg/8heat (or other splash/heat combination) for the IS-ERPPC?
reduced splash for the ER-PPC - because of better focusing technology

- Would the ERLL or LP be better, equal, or still worse (for competitive builds) than the PPC in this case?
can't say - i think competive builds and players should adept to any change. if they can't they are not worthy to be called competive

- Would you feel that the splash is a waste and the only the FLD part be what the weapon would be considered for competitive play?
- no the Clans only have the Gauss for pure FLD, so why should the IS work otherwise

Do you think with the PPC at 7+1.5+1.5/10 and the ERPPC at 10+0+0/15 that people with competitive build would always use the ERPPC or mix it with PPCs?
they are allready running 2 ER-PPC and Gauss for 35dmg at more range instead 30 with the 2/2 Combo.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

PPC splash damage is a bad idea. PPC damage arcing, however, is great (which is what the cERPPC will be doing).

- Would you say that PPCs with splash (lets say 8+1+1) with curent heat (10) would be totally useless?

PPCs with splash would be broken. PPCs with damage arcing, however, would be in a far better place with regard to balance, and could probably allow PGI to tweak the base heat and ghost heat levels of both the PPC and ERPPC.

- Would you rather prefere 8+1+1dmg/10heat or 7+1.5+1.5dmg/9heat or 6+2+2dmg/8heat (or other splash/heat combination) for the PPC?

I have long favored 5/3/2, but given PGI's implementation with the cERPPC, I'd be fine with 5/2.5/2.5 or even 6/2/2. If either of those options were to go live, then I'd be fine with 9 heat for the PPC and 12 for the ERPPC, at least as starting numbers that PGI could tweak going forward.

- Would you rather prefere 8+1+1dmg/10heat or 7+1.5+1.5dmg/9heat or 6+2+2dmg/8heat (or other splash/heat combination) for the IS-ERPPC?

See my answer to the previous question.

- Would the ERLL or LP be better, equal, or still worse (for competitive builds) than the PPC in this case?

They'd be different. Currently they're already different, but the PPC's inherent mechancs overwhelm the advantages offered by both enhanced LL options. The combination of FLD and pinpoint is very nearly gamebreaking (the same goes for ACs to an extent). Shifting PPCs away from true pinpoint damage while retaining their FLD attribute would give them a unique edge over the LL options without making them the only viable one for peak performance builds (they'd still be the best option for certain peek-and-shoot playstyles).

In general I already use the ERLL and LPL, and find that the LPL is one of my top performers. That said, making the PPC a little less overwhelming will open up alternative playstyles to the current peek-and-shoot meta (poptarts and ridge humping), which favors point-and-click FLD and pinpoint weapon combos.

- Would you feel that the splash is a waste and the only the FLD part be what the weapon would be considered for competitive play?

The arcing would both mitigate the pinpoint aspect of the PPC (without impacting its FLD properties in the least) and open up new opportunities for player skill. Placing shots to try to land that little bit of arcing damage on a damaged but covered area could become a new capability for canny pilots to use. That said, so long as the meta (as exemplified by overwhelming usage by competitive players) remains peek-and-shoot FLD builds, the main component they'd concern themselves with would be the pinpoint impact damage. The arcing would be less relevant. It certainly won't remove the PPC from the meta, since it'd remain the only FLD energy weapon in the game, but it might just give enough leeway to the other big energy options that we start seeing at least a modicum of build diversity.

[Coralld]

Standard IS PPC should be 6/2/2 and remain at the same heat, IS ERPPC should be 8/1/1 and remain the same heat. The reason for this is because both PPC types still have FLD which all other energy weapons do not and is still a big advantage.

Also, calling it "Splash Damage" is misleading as its not a splash mechanic, its an arcing mechanic.

[EvilCow]

In my opinion it is a good idea (the 10+2.5+2.5) and should be applied, to a lesser degree, to the IS PPC too, for example 8+1+1.

Then I would make the minimum damage like it was months ago, a linear increase not a dumb transition at 90mt.

Edited by EvilCow, 12 June 2014 - 07:13 AM.

[Reno Blade]

I added "(arcing to adjacent sections)" behind Splash to make it more clear, if that's the right wording in english.

Bishop,
You coul'd use the template with the questions for your reply and add an answer to each of them with your opinion.
That way the thread would stay clean and easy to see for the devs what everyone thinks instead of mixing in emotions that could lead to derailing the thread.

thank you everyone for your posts so far.
keep it comming, mechwarriors!

[Gas Guzzler]

Just want everyone to remember that IS PPCs are heavier and take up more space than cERPPCs, and this splash damage effort was to balance them based on that. With the whole IS = Clan thing they are pushing, IS PPCs should be more deadly.

[Ashaira]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 June 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Just want everyone to remember that IS PPCs are heavier and take up more space than cERPPCs, and this splash damage effort was to balance them based on that. With the whole IS = Clan thing they are pushing, IS PPCs should be more deadly.

uh no. clan erppc are already hot. see the is erppc noone uses right now. even if the is erppc was ligther noone would use it because of the heat and because they have an alternative (is ppc)

[Bishop Steiner]

Reno Blade, on 12 June 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

I added "(arcing to adjacent sections)" behind Splash to make it more clear, if that's the right wording in english.

Bishop,
You coul'd use the template with the questions for your reply and add an answer to each of them with your opinion.
That way the thread would stay clean and easy to see for the devs what everyone thinks instead of mixing in emotions that could lead to derailing the thread.

thank you everyone for your posts so far.
keep it comming, mechwarriors!

I'm sorry I didn't know there was a set of rules for answering.

And Levi's undifferentiated wall of text is cleaner and easier for the Devs?

Well, I apologize. I'll just sit out and watch the further devolution of this game be proposed then.

[Lucian Nostra]

- Would you say that PPCs with splash (lets say 8+1+1) with curent heat (10) would be totally useless?
No it would still be used heavily as it's still FLD
- Would you rather prefere 8+1+1dmg/10heat or 7+1.5+1.5dmg/9heat or 6+2+2dmg/8heat (or other splash/heat combination) for the PPC?
I'd rather see 7+1.5+1.5 for 10 heat
- Would you rather prefere 8+1+1dmg/10heat or 7+1.5+1.5dmg/9heat or 6+2+2dmg/8heat (or other splash/heat combination) for the IS-ERPPC?
8+1+1 for 15 heat, OR Dare I say 10 damage no arc in IS ERs?
- Would the ERLL or LP be better, equal, or still worse (for competitive builds) than the PPC in this case?
Lasers would still be worse as they don't FLD
- Would you feel that the splash is a waste and the only the FLD part be what the weapon would be considered for competitive play?
Yes it would be a waste in most circumstances, its a way to curb PPCs without a total reduction in their damage.

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 12 June 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Now that we saw the PPCs in action and had some IS vs Clan matches...
What do you think?

[EvilCow]

The IS PPC used to be overpowered in the old pre-clans meta, now I am no more sure that it should be nerfed. I would just remove the hard minimum range and keep the other stats as-is.

[Reno Blade]

EvilCow, on 13 June 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

The IS PPC used to be overpowered in the old pre-clans meta, now I am no more sure that it should be nerfed. I would just remove the hard minimum range and keep the other stats as-is.

You would remove min range?
To make PPCs stronger vs Clans, right? Thats the place of the ERPPC.
But what about IS vs IS then? No room for laser, only take PPC/AC boats like we had the last 12 months, right?

I feel the FLD of the PPC and AC for IS is just too good to bring anything else to the battlefield, especially in competitive games.

Edited by Reno Blade, 15 June 2014 - 02:51 AM.

[EvilCow]

Reno Blade, on 15 June 2014 - 02:50 AM, said:

You would remove min range?
To make PPCs stronger vs Clans, right? Thats the place of the ERPPC.
But what about IS vs IS then? No room for laser, only take PPC/AC boats like we had the last 12 months, right?

I feel the FLD of the PPC and AC for IS is just too good to bring anything else to the battlefield, especially in competitive games.

I suggested to remove the hard minimum range and return to the linear damage increase it had a while ago *not* to remove minimum range, that would not have much impact on the meta.

This zero damage things under 90mt always bothered me, it makes no sense, at least for LRM you can describe it as missiles not yet armed and you can also see them bounce and fall to the ground.

[Lightfoot]

None. No splash. It's not the problem and it's not how PPCs work.

PPCs are controlled now more than any other weapon by Heat and Ghost Heat. If that is not enough the next solution is to make the Mechs tougher.

Compared to all previous MechWarrior games MWO's Mechs have paper thin armor. So much so that PGI has had to introduce DHS 1.4, Ghost Heat to block normal energy weapon DPS. And the Gauss de-sync to block long-range damage. The fix for long range anything is a longer recharge, that's how it is balanced, but PGI doesn't understand this.

In any event 2xPPCs in a mech with 12 DHS use up that heatsinking in about 4 successive firings and then require about 7 seconds cooling between firings to avoid shutdown. If any other weapons are added they will increase that cooldown time by whatever portion of the heatsinking they use. Compare to ACs which need no extra DHS and leave plenty of heatsinking for other weapons while firing every 1-4 seconds without pause.

In short you are chasing a red herring, not pursuing a balance solution.

Things already missing from MWO PPCs is HUD disruption and heat transfer. MWO's PPCs only disrupt ECM and that's not all that should be happening. The heat transfer is small on a PPC hit, but there, like one heat, maybe two. HUD disruption of 2 seconds is pretty standard. Your HUD just fuzzes out and back in. Add this before anything else is done to PPCs and Clan ERPPCs should already have it since they are heavily nerfed with heat and spread damage on top of that.

Just think of it PGI. Heat transfer and HUD disruption from ERPPCs would lower overall in-game DPS by a small amount.

[ScarecrowES]

Ultimately with PPCs you have to consider balancing relative to Lasers - which are already the better option in most cases for damage per ton per heat considerations. Plus you have to consider that laser balancing is poor relative to ballistics - making lasers by far a less practical option compared to the superior damage and utility of ballistic weapons. If we look at PPC balancing, we have to look at balancing all energy weapons relative to ballistics.

First, looking at purely IS weapons and balancing criteria: You cannot reduce heat output of the standard PPC below the output of the ER Large Laser. You also cannot reduce pure damage (FLD) output below what the large laser is capable of in total. You CAN, however, reduce PPC heat output to or near the current ERLL level, and adjust the heat scale of all other lasers accordingly. Also, I think the entire community can agree that a slight increase in range and a drop of the minimum (ridiculous in a video game anyway) on the IS ERPPC does not justify a 50% increase in heat. The obvious choice here is to increase heat for the IS ERPPC at the relative scale you see with the standard and ER Large lasers... no more than 25%. Balance Clan ERPPC to include more damage (splash if necessary, as currently implemented) and range than the IS counterpart, with less weight and critical slot requirements and the same heat scale (given this is the only clan option).

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 June 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Just want everyone to remember that IS PPCs are heavier and take up more space than cERPPCs, and this splash damage effort was to balance them based on that. With the whole IS = Clan thing they are pushing, IS PPCs should be more deadly.

But whats not more deadly about 10PP dmg and 2.5 to 2 adjacent locations? 2.5, it really isnt that much. But when a Warhawk or someone is blasting away with more then 1 of them, they are peeling 5dmg off 2 adjacent locations+20 off a PP location. If the PPC is following up shots that are arcing into an armor stripped location, seems to me the arcing can potentially be pretty deadly.

Clan ER PPC pretty much blows armor off just as well as IS ER PPC, but gets an added bonus of being able to also finish off damaged locations, kill off exposed internals....and does any of this damage ever arc into the head or something?

[ScarecrowES]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 June 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

But whats not more deadly about 10PP dmg and 2.5 to 2 adjacent locations? 2.5, it really isnt that much. But when a Warhawk or someone is blasting away with more then 1 of them, they are peeling 5dmg off 2 adjacent locations+20 off a PP location. If the PPC is following up shots that are arcing into an armor stripped location, seems to me the arcing can potentially be pretty deadly.

Clan ER PPC pretty much blows armor off just as well as IS ER PPC, but gets an added bonus of being able to also finish off damaged locations, kill off exposed internals....and does any of this damage ever arc into the head or something?

I would argue there that splash damage on a pinpoint weapon is never considered a plus. Further, adding a little range and splash damage to a weapon that is already considered unusable in the current game (as IS ERPPCs generally are), is also not a plus.