107 replies to this topic

[Pygar]

ArchSight, on 13 June 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

The biggest balance concern I have is one shotting small and medium mechs. The XL engine builds with them may become the worse idea ever if it results in them dieing quickly. Even standard engines can be bad too with how much armor is protecting them. With the current armor caps, Mediums and lights are forced to mount lower amounts of armor that leave them susceptable to being killed in one shot from a high damage alpha or a bad situation when multiple alphas hit the mech at the same time.

Clan mechs come with more weapon hardpoints and the bigger they get the more weapons they can pack on to possible one shot mechs. There needs to be more testing but I believe the cicada is going to be one of those undesirably played mechs when the clans release because of it's low armor values and easier to shoot hit boxes. If the cicada is forced to front load all of it's armor how would it survive other fights that require it to turn around? Actually a lot of mechs right now are being forced to front load armor to increase surviability.

I think it's bound to happen at some point, but only to targets that are standing still and not behind cover...which light and medium pilots should never allow to happen anyways- and the same applies to both Clan and IS mechs since Clan mechs are not really that much more tough to cripple or kill. The part of the equation you are really missing is that the consensus on Dire Wolf from last night was that apparently the word "Dire" is Clan-speak for sloooooooooooooow....when even seasoned Assault pilots are griping over and over about how slow it is....yeah, it's slow.

Ironically, Cicada seemed to be one of the more prominent IS mechs I saw last night, running noisy cricket builds...and no, they were not just getting fried like ants under a magnifying glass because there were a bunch of Clan mechs on the other team.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

mmmmmmmmmmm.............. I can think of another Spheroid. This guy named.... Aleksandr Kerensky? Of course, his son was a flaming whackjob, so maybe not a great example after all.......

But pretty sure some guys named Morgan Kell, Hanse Davion, Theodore Kurita are also LOLing at you right now.

Kerensky was already exceptional. (I am not saying the clans aren't human, I am just saying that they are of better stock, because Kerensky was of better stock.)

Morgan Kell was ok. Hanse Davion was a scheming $%&#@ fit for the IS. Theodore Kurita had a lovely set of morals, but was simply inept by way of his Combine. (Of all the spheroid houses, I respect Kurita the most, that may be a result of reading Wolves on the Border and Heir to the Dragon.)

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 13 June 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

Kerensky was already exceptional. (I am not saying the clans aren't human, I am just saying that they are of better stock, because Kerensky was of better stock.)

Morgan Kell was ok. Hanse Davion was a scheming $%&#@ fit for the IS. Theodore Kurita had a lovely set of morals, but was simply inept by way of his Combine. (Of all the spheroid houses, I respect Kurita the most, that may be a result of reading Wolves on the Border and Heir to the Dragon.)

Morgan Kell could and did destroy Clan Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat Warriors wholesale at Luthien.

[Pygar]

Livewyr, on 13 June 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

But, considering how much content they are throwing at us in one fell swoop, only a few adjustments is actually spectacular. Obviously, this will be further fleshed out in the coming weeks. The extent of the JJ/Leg Damage adjustment will weigh heavily on the balance given that they are key aspects of the Poptart meta.

This is very much how I feel about it.... I was fairly convinced that all the soft nerfs PGI was proposing were going to fail hard, and I ended up being pleasantly surprised that I was wrong- the Clans are actually reasonably balanced for the most part...and it's really amazing considering how not balanced the Clans are in the first place.

And yeah, we'll see how that JJ nerf works out- Just as sure as I don't want to see the clans make IS mechs totally obsolete, I also do not want to see the same tired old meta mechs running the show in the next major tournament.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

Morgan Kell could and did destroy Clan Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat Warriors wholesale at Luthien.

I would certainly hope so with 25% more forces (including the Dragoons), and the advantages of home-field and defensive positions... (And it didn't exactly leave them in fighting shape.)

[Xeno Phalcon]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

Morgan Kell could and did destroy Clan Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat Warriors wholesale at Luthien.

While morgan kell's skill is never in question, didnt he have MWO style ECM back then? XD

[Urdnot Mau]

I think i would be ok with Clan lasers having the current duration of the IS lasers and future IS lasers having a shorter duration

[Novakaine]

What invasion sheesh.

[Augustus Martelus II]

WarHippy, on 13 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

For me though it sounds odd to say is that the ERLasers gave me a rather satisfied feeling while at the same time they felt off in several games because of the beam duration. I hope they consider lowering them by a little maybe .1-.15, and I would like to see the pulse lasers lowered at least another .15 maybe .2

I only tried out the Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf, Warhawk, and Stormcrow.
--The Timber Wolf felt great, and I might even say that it was the best feeling version of the mech I have played in any game.
--The Dire Wolf never felt right the entire time I used it, and I never found a build that I really liked. With time I think it might work out if I can find a build I like.
--The Warhawk felt a little hot, but I didn't really tweak it much. The ERPPCs were definatly hot, and I'm not sold on the damage spread yet in particular when some of the damage magically disappears.
--The Stormcrow was plain simple fun, and I think I'm in love.

The ACs look great and sounded great, but much like I always assumed when people were asking for burst fire I find them highly obnoxious to be hit by. I hope they can find a way to tweak them a bit to lesson that annoyance.

Clan LRMs looked and sounded awesome, but holy crap does AMS eat them alive.

Overall, I was pretty happy with the Clan mechs, but I feel the IS mechs may still have a fairly strong advantage over them, but we will have to see once they are fully released and out in the wild.

And say people want to nerf them....

The Dire Wolf might have the firepower of 2 altai but it look pretty slow. And everthing i read on the Dire Wolf make them a scary war machine for the IS. It have is disavantage....its slow. If they nerf it too much it might fall in the jokes mechs that nobody will want to ride it.

Its like since they nerf the ppcs the basic variant of the awesome with 3 ppc or 3 er ppc doesnt work as it should.

[MischiefSC]

What I find really funny is that clan weapons are balanced via the method many of us were crying for a long time (DOT vs FLD) and.... everyone says how awesome it is.

The issue isn't that clan mechs need nerfed - or clan weapons. They're FUN.

The issue is that IS mechs and weapons have been intentionally made NOT fun for the last 2 years, and so in comparison to clan mechs are less enjoyable. Unless you enjoy playing a Phract/Victor poptart, or a Raven/Spider sniper. Maybe a Jenner backstabber. Every other IS mech is now pretty much garbage, even more so than they were before....

only now, the 'upgrade' to all those mechs is going to be significantly more expensive.

I'm glad to see all the smiles and high-fives over the release of the Clan mechs. That's great, I'm glad they're fun. They are, by the sound of it, what the IS mechs should have been but for some inexplicable reason were not allowed to be. Now the question is, other than just for giggles/nostalgia... why play IS?

Edited by MischiefSC, 13 June 2014 - 05:49 PM.

[Augustus Martelus II]

so instead of nerfing stuff they should do like in MW4 hardpoints, you have a limit size of weapon you can fit on mechs

We wouldnt have see 5-6 er ppc stalkers or 2 er ppcs and gauss pop tarts mechs.... Each mechs would have is own role and would be more unique.

Because right now a lot of IS mech feel like they are the same except on a different size. Ex the jeager you can make an ac40 with all the variants.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

I see the Dire Wolf the same way I see LRM boats.

If ya stand out in the open, expect lots of pain. Use cover and they are a non issue and ridiculously easy to out manuever. They are easy pickings for lights.

I really do not expect them to do particularly well in competitive 12 mans since strikes will likely kill them long before they can even get a shot off.

The best role they can hope to have is fire support for more capable assaults leading a charge. They're too slow to lead a charge themselves, and a liability in a fast moving push because they'll quickly become light fodder as they fall behind.

A group milling around waiting for them to catch up has already lost momentum.

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 13 June 2014 - 05:53 PM.

[Augustus Martelus II]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 13 June 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

I see the Dire Wolf the same way I see LRM boats.

If ya stand out in the open, expect lots of pain. Use cover and they are a non issue and ridiculously easy to out manuever. They are easy pickings for lights.

I really do not expect them to do particularly well in competitive 12 mans since strikes will likely kill them long before they can even get a shot off.

The best role they can hope to have is fire support for more capable assaults leading a charge. They're too slow to lead a charge themselves, and a liability in a fast moving push because they'll quickly become light fodder as they fall behind.

A group milling around waiting for them to catch up has already lost momentum.

but they will stand a position if they ever have to lol and they will stand it against other assault. The Dire Wolf is mostly like an assault killer. It need cover for is back but it can put to pieces an atlas

[Bishop Steiner]

Ran my account today.....and felt...empty and hollow inside. No lovely Summoner to make everything better.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ran my account today.....and felt...empty and hollow inside. No lovely Summoner to make everything better.

Sunday!

[Ursh]

You're forgetting that some of those legendary inner sphere tacticians and pilots were only legendary because authors made them so. That whole Tukkayid thing? Only in bad fiction and hollywood movies does that kind of scene occur, where the side with overwhelming military superiority negotiates away all of their advantages, initiative, and power. Also, in almost all of the books, senior clan commanders were portrayed more like idiotic, pompous, and arrogant high school varsity athletes from bad 80s movies.

Meanwhile, the IS pilots and commanders were all so flexible and adaptable. It's almost like they forgot these were pilots who came from the same IS that had steadily let technology decline for almost 300 years. The same IS education system that produced legendary minds who couldn't even remember how to build fusion engines or endosteel because apparently someone forgot to save a copy of the blueprints on a thumbdrive.

In Tabletop, even giving up almost 2 to 1 weight disadvantage, usually whoever was playing clan with 3050 or 3055 TRO mechs won against IS, given somewhat equally capable players. That's why the novels quickly began to annoy me. It was always "Inner Sphere good, clanners bad, unless they're clanners who harbor sympathies for the IS and help them out or defect." Usually the players who were married to that white/black view of things were the easiest to beat in tabletop, because rigid minds tend to not be the most tactically flexible. People who played IS simply for the roleplay fun of it though, tended to be at least average to good.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ursh, on 13 June 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

You're forgetting that some of those legendary inner sphere tacticians and pilots were only legendary because authors made them so. That whole Tukkayid thing? Only in bad fiction and hollywood movies does that kind of scene occur, where the side with overwhelming military superiority negotiates away all of their advantages, initiative, and power. Also, in almost all of the books, senior clan commanders were portrayed more like idiotic, pompous, and arrogant high school varsity athletes from bad 80s movies.

Meanwhile, the IS pilots and commanders were all so flexible and adaptable. It's almost like they forgot these were pilots who came from the same IS that had steadily let technology decline for almost 300 years. The same IS education system that produced legendary minds who couldn't even remember how to build fusion engines or endosteel because apparently someone forgot to save a copy of the blueprints on a thumbdrive.

In Tabletop, even giving up almost 2 to 1 weight disadvantage, usually whoever was playing clan with 3050 or 3055 TRO mechs won against IS, given somewhat equally capable players. That's why the novels quickly began to annoy me. It was always "Inner Sphere good, clanners bad, unless they're clanners who harbor sympathies for the IS and help them out or defect." Usually the players who were married to that white/black view of things were the easiest to beat in tabletop, because rigid minds tend to not be the most tactically flexible. People who played IS simply for the roleplay fun of it though, tended to be at least average to good.

you realize the only reason the IP exists is those authors, essentially? Funny how make believe works!

[Sephlock]

Xeno Phalcon, on 13 June 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

While morgan kell's skill is never in question, didnt he have MWO style ECM back then? XD

Actually, he may very well have...

Ursh, on 13 June 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

That whole Tukkayid thing? Only in bad fiction and hollywood movies does that kind of scene occur,

[Vanguard319]

Bilbo, on 13 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

That depends on the mech. The Direwolf has only one arm across all three variants capable of equipping a lower arm actuator, no matter what it has equipped.

And I ran a Summoner C at one point during the public test, and had no problem tracking mechs laterally with a UAC 20. Seems as long as one arm has lower actuators, both arms will track.

[Grey Ghost]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

You boat 6 or more Clan Lasers, that is 6 more heat on mediums.

Seems to me with Clan Medium Lasers less = more. Quick example Alpha vs Alpha...

6 IS Medium Lasers = 30 Damage | 24 Heat (6 HPS) | 7.5 DPS
vs
5 C-ER Medium Lasers = 35 Damage | 25 Heat (5.81 HPS) | 8.14 DPS

So 5 C-ERML have the range of IS-LLs, the damage of 7 IS-MLs, and similar heat to 6 IS-MLs. Looks like they are in a fairly good place.

Question, is the 0.3 seconds extra beam duration much of a hindrance?