524 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Of everyone who did the PTS, I've yet to see a dissenting opinion of burst-fire autocannons. This was used to balance against the IS because of clan-weapon lower weight and double-tap capability.

That said, I think IS auto-cannons should get a similar workup, but adjusted to keep them slightly better for their weight.

My solution is simple:
Have the IS Autocannon projectiles be 100m/s (or more) faster than their clan Ultra counterparts. (which I think is already the case, at least in the 20's department)

Have larger bore sizes for IS weapons. (Fits the weight increase, right!?)
Weapon----CLAN----IS
(U)AC20------5--------3 (Shells)
(U)AC10------3--------2
(U)AC5--------3-------2
(U)AC2--------2-------1


This would better allow for the straight brawl-y fun we had in the PTS, while keeping the IS Autocannons better at concentrating damage to off-set their weight and size disadvantage.

(And would also severely cripple much of the poptart meta, along with the JJ/legdmg adjustments.)


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It is my hope that this would be merely a stopgap measure, on PGI's way to making individual variants of weapons. (Different manufacturers: different characteristics.)

Example: AC20
Chemjet 185 = 2 Shells at 700m/s
Pontiac 100 = 3 Shells at 900m/s
Luxor Devastator-20 = 10 Shells at 1400m/s
And so on, and so forth. (You could even make them faction specific for CW)

Each would have advantages and disadvantages. (For a visual demonstration, look for Koniving's video, he put words into pretty film.)

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EDIT:

Alternate proposed solution:
Maintaining singular large projectile (to maintain a more significant flavor difference and IS survival tactic) that has arcing damage similar, but to a lesser extent, to the CERPPC. (Main damage + 1-2 components arced to.)
AC2 = 1
AC5 = 3.5/0.75/0.75
AC10 = 8/1/1
AC20 = 16/2/2.

This allows the FLD to be maintained (for above stated reasons) but increases the TTK on smaller mechs by keeping that SHD with 36pts of arm armor or 40 pts of left torso armor from eating a full 30pts of damage in one click from the PPC/AC5 meta build. (And increased survivability for everyone else, but more especially light mechs.)

Edited by Livewyr, 16 June 2014 - 06:16 PM.

[xMintaka]

Whole heartedly back this. It seems highly logical to add burst fire to the IS autocannons. As you say it would almost completely remove poptarting but leaving it a viable tactic (guass + ppc) for more skilled players.

Now anyone can take a few PPC's and AC5's with jumpjets and perform fairly well with less effort.

Having different manufacturers for the AC's would be great, but it really should be considered much later in development, imo.

Finally, I didn't think the IS got larger bore UAC's for another few years. Correct me if I'm wrong. I still think the regular AC's should be burst fire though.

Edited by Lunatech, 14 June 2014 - 05:31 AM.

[Creovex]

No. Burst fire = clan tech.... an improvement on the refire rate of the IS AC is the only acceptable change in my eyes.

Let's not try and bastardize all the new clan weapons for the sake of IS but rather go back and retune IS weapons while STILL keeping them different to really make the sides seem different. I HATE games that give up on uniqueness and jump on the "make them all play the same" bandwagon.

Edited by Creovex, 14 June 2014 - 05:35 AM.

[Reitrix]

I think having different manufacturers give different shot numbers would basically push everyone towards the lowest number of shots.

[Artgathan]

Reitrix, on 14 June 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

I think having different manufacturers give different shot numbers would basically push everyone towards the lowest number of shots.

Unless you give the guns with more shots a higher potential damage. IE:

Chemjet - 2 shots @ 10 damage each
Pontiac - 4 shots @ 6 damage each

[Reitrix]

Artgathan, on 14 June 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

Unless you give the guns with more shots a higher potential damage. IE:

Chemjet - 2 shots @ 10 damage each
Pontiac - 4 shots @ 6 damage each

It'd still see the 2 shot cannon in more use than the multi shot. Its 10 damage instantly to the section of choice. Bonus if you get the second one in.

Remember that the meta crowd is all about scoring as big a hit as possible in a single blow to a single location.

[Davers]

I think changing all ACs to burst fire will really hurt the IS.

[Reitrix]

Davers, on 14 June 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

I think changing all ACs to burst fire will really hurt the IS.

I cant see how. It just spreads the damage little more. Clan 'Mechs don't magically have more armor than IS counterparts. The only thing is hurts is the poptart 2xPPC+2xAC5 meta. And that is kind of a good thing.

We really should have IS Burst Fire their AC's, with slightly less shots required to achieve max damage. That way IS has the advantage of short burn lasers and ACs, but the Clans have the advantage of range and weight.

[Livewyr]

Creovex, on 14 June 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

No. Burst fire = clan tech.... an improvement on the refire rate of the IS AC is the only acceptable change in my eyes.

Let's not try and bastardize all the new clan weapons for the sake of IS but rather go back and retune IS weapons while STILL keeping them different to really make the sides seem different. I HATE games that give up on uniqueness and jump on the "make them all play the same" bandwagon.

Burst Fire is "Everyone" tech. (Kai Allard Liao's Yen Lo Wang had a Pontiac 100..which is not a "big slug" AC20.)
(The only single shot 20 I can think of is maybe the 203mm, which would knock over the mechs that were firing them.)

Reitrix, on 14 June 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

I think having different manufacturers give different shot numbers would basically push everyone towards the lowest number of shots.

Generally speaking, yes, however, for light mech cleanup, having the faster projectile rate with more shells would be handier than a slower projectile set with fewer shells. (And then there is the chaining effect.)

Artgathan, on 14 June 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

Unless you give the guns with more shots a higher potential damage. IE:

Chemjet - 2 shots @ 10 damage each
Pontiac - 4 shots @ 6 damage each

I'm not in favor of giving them extra damage, lest they become AC24s... Projectile speed (and therefore accuracy), I think, would be a suitable trade-off.

Davers, on 14 June 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

I think changing all ACs to burst fire will really hurt the IS.

Changing them to exact copies would (due to clan-tech lower weight) but with 50-35% fewer, and faster shells, they'd still enjoy a heavier concentration of damage, without being Pin-Point surgeons.

Edited by Livewyr, 14 June 2014 - 06:02 AM.

[hercules1981]

I'm totally against the changing of IS auto cannons, let's keep some major differences between IS and clans. I am not a jump snipe guy at all but love my banshees and Jagger's and am really hoping the new jj heat scale and fall damage combined with the return of brawling with Srms will be enough to screw over the whole pop tart thing.

Edited by hercules1981, 14 June 2014 - 06:07 AM.

[Livewyr]

hercules1981, on 14 June 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

I'm totally against the changing of IS auto cannons, let's keep some major differences between IS and clans. I am not a jump snipe guy at all but love my banshees and Jagger's and am really hoping the new jj heat scale and fall damage combined with the return of brawling with Srms will be enough to screw over the whole pop tart thing.

It isn't even the jumpsniping thing that bothers me. All lighter mechs get screwed by surgical FLD damage.

One thing I noticed during the PTS session was that getting caught up in the middle of a gaggle of clan mechs was not a death sentence. It was a pain sentence, it hurt like hell, but I didn't immediately lose an arm, or a torso, because the damage was spread.

A medium mech in the current live server, trying to do anything other than snipe is generally a death sentence. (Get seen, eat 30 point alpha to one torso... If you get that 30pt alpha in the back of either torso, your fighting life has significantly shortened, because even if you kept the torso, the next graze by anything would remove it.)

Pin point surgery is bad for everyone, but even worse for medium mechs.

[Creovex]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Burst Fire is "Everyone" tech. (Kai Allard Liao's Yen Lo Wang had a Pontiac 100..which is not a "big slug" AC20.)........

Let's be real for a second. We left the true to material train a LONG time ago. Additionally it has been made clear that past MW games were NEVER considered canon and thus can manipulate rules, events, etc....

The point was about keeping THIS games diversity. There has to be a reason for one to choose IS over Clan and vice versa or things like CW will result in a one sided stomp across the galaxy. Planetside and Planetside2 did a great job of making factions based around weapon mechanics and play style of your choice... thus it is what actually keeps a loosing faction recruiting and even becoming stronger. When you make factions all homogenous you paint yourself into a future certain to make CW not even feasible and very unsuccessful.

Edited by Creovex, 14 June 2014 - 06:15 AM.

[Livewyr]

Creovex, on 14 June 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

Let's be real for a second. We left the true to material train a LONG time ago. Additionally it has been made clear that past MW games were NEVER considered canon and thus can manipulate rules, events, etc....

The point was about keeping THIS games diversity. There has to be a reason for one to choose IS over Clan and vice versa or things like CW will result in a one sided stomp across the galaxy. Planetside and Planetside2 did a great job of making factions based around weapon mechanics and play style of your choice... thus it is what actually keeps a loosing faction recruiting and even becoming stronger. When you make factions all homogenous you paint yourself into a future certain to make CW not even feasible and very unsuccessful.

A: They would be diverse: IS would have fewer shells at faster speed. That appeals to a playstyle similar to what they have, without the problem I'm going to repeat in "B."

B: "A medium mech in the current live server, trying to do anything other than snipe is generally a death sentence. (Get seen, eat 30 point alpha to one torso... If you get that 30pt alpha in the back of either torso, your fighting life has significantly shortened, because even if you kept the torso, the next graze by anything would remove it.)

Pin point surgery is bad for everyone, but even worse for medium mechs."

[Sprouticus]

If you give IS mechs fewer shells

3/2/2/1 or 4/3/2/1,
and
have the IS AC's shoot slightly faster
and
have the clan AC's/lbx's run hotter,

I think you would be able to balance it.


This would increase TTK, which would also allow you to do the following:

Give the PPC/ERPPC 8/1/1 spread or even 7/1.5/1.5
and
Reduce the heat on the ISML/ISMPL by 0.5
and
Reduce the heat in the ISSL/ISSPL by 0.25
and
Increase the ghost heat for the ISLL and ISLPL and ISERLL to 3


This would help keep TTK reasonable while giving the IS some buffs. And FLD is still possible with PPC gauss. It gives a big vuff to IS mediums (which need it) and lights (which dont really, but that is ok). It would also make the ISLL superior to the cERML which is it not today.

[Diomed]

Part of what made the PTS sessions so much fun was the lack of poptarts and a return to the traditional battletech meta. The changes to ACs and PPCs should be ported to IS weapons.

[Livewyr]

Sprouticus, on 14 June 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

If you give IS mechs fewer shells

3/2/2/1 or 4/3/2/1,
and
have the IS AC's shoot slightly faster
and
have the clan AC's/lbx's run hotter,

I think you would be able to balance it.


This would increase TTK, which would also allow you to do the following:

Give the PPC/ERPPC 8/1/1 spread or even 7/1.5/1.5
and
Reduce the heat on the ISML/ISMPL by 0.5
and
Reduce the heat in the ISSL/ISSPL by 0.25
and
Increase the ghost heat for the ISLL and ISLPL and ISERLL to 3


This would help keep TTK reasonable while giving the IS some buffs. And FLD is still possible with PPC gauss. It gives a big vuff to IS mediums (which need it) and lights (which dont really, but that is ok). It would also make the ISLL superior to the cERML which is it not today.

Agree with most of that, I am in agreement with making the IS PPC/ERPPC 9/1, though I would not cry if they remained the same.

Increasing the heat on the autocannons, though, I don't think would be a good thing. However, adding a Ghost heat limit of 4UAC5s and 3 UAC10s could be an improvement. (This is not myself tacitly agreeing with Ghost Heat, I still think there are much better ways, but it's me working with what we have.)

Edited by Livewyr, 14 June 2014 - 06:40 AM.

[Tahribator]

We really need this. I completely support it.

[Ngamok]

As long as my 4G can carry:

The primary weapon on the Hunchback is a Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 which can strip one and a quarter tons of armor off an enemy 'Mech in a single blow.

http://www.sarna.net...n_Mount_Type_20

Edited by Ngamok, 14 June 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[Livewyr]

Ngamok, on 14 June 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

As long as my 4G can carry:

The primary weapon on the Hunchback is a Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 which can strip one and a quarter tons of armor off an enemy 'Mech in a single blow.

http://www.sarna.net...n_Mount_Type_20

I just read the TRO on the hunchie, doesn't say anything about a "Single Blow."

[Pariah Devalis]

In the PTS, everyone who brought an Autocannon was essentially bringing a Clan AC (outside of the five or so IS mechs puttering about ). Between burst fire and the Buckton fix, the gameplay shifted, immediately, to a longer time to kill, brawling centric style of combat. Outside of the crotch punching Party Novas, fights were longer, more visceral, and just plain more satisfying.

In all, the burst mechanics made the game so much more enjoyable. However, a need to give the IS some sort of edge is there, so how about this:

If Clan Ultras fire in bursts of: 2, 3, 4, and 5...

Make IS Autocannons fire in bursts of 1, 2, 3, and 4.

They lose out on the doubletap, but gain slightly more front loaded damage per hit of an autocannon. This seems like a compromise between the two, no? Also reflects on the IS ACs being bigger, bulkier mechanisms. Also preempts the eventual inclusion of Inner Sphere UAC 2, 10, and 20 down the pipe.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 June 2014 - 07:03 AM.