524 replies to this topic

[Praehotec8]

I can see the merit of the arguments on both sides of this debate, but at this point, I would be hesitant to rush to any firm conclusions yet. It certainly is nice to have mechanics that really make each side play differently, and most importantly:

at this point we really have no firm data about how pure clan vs. pure IS compare. I think we need some time playtesting faction warfare before making snap balance decisions that look good on paper but may or may not turn out well in a live environment.

[verybad]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

Actually ****ing read the thread so you know what's going on before running your keyboard. I've already hashed out several issues with someone who actually reads.

Sorry, but I don't agree with your essential idea, which is to making IS ACs burst.

Have that as an option for different brands of Cs? Sure, that would be great. That's been mentioned many times before and I'd be fine with that. Doing this to the base, "generic" AC is harmful to the IS however, In addition, it requires the use of AC to require the same tactics, I feel it reduces overal variety in play.

Edited by verybad, 14 June 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[Livewyr]

JohanssenJr, on 14 June 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

The user of a Gauss Rifle is having to "manually" engage a cycling step, charging the weapon, before it can be fired.

The M82 is still an autoloading weapon. Whether it fires a single round every trigger pull or continues cycling as long as the trigger is engaged. The user just needs to pull the trigger.

The Gauss Rifle charge is more akin to the "hold breath" of a marksman, and was only added in as a meta effect. The Gauss Rifle automatically chambers the next round. (You only pull the trigger once..)

The M82 is the same way. You look down your scope, and pull the trigger once.

JohanssenJr, on 14 June 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

What if we changed the M82 to an 1170 firing slugs? It's also a big gun, it also auto loads, it's also relatively short ranged.
A non autoloading cannon would be the M109s I used to crew.

Autocannon does not mean "overgrown machine gun." It means the weapon cycles itself.

There is a difference between "Auto" and "Semi-Auto."

JohanssenJr, on 14 June 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

But back to the main topic, who here actually used IS mechs on the PTS? I rotated every match between my clan mechs and IS mechs. The only saving grace were my standard engine AC brawlers where I could snap shoot then twist to mitigate the absurd UAC spam from Dire Wolves, my faster SRM bombers that hit and run, and the lights (which died quick to SSRM6 spam).

But let's talk about IS AC boats. How many run standard engines? The Banshee and the KC20. The rest are all ultra squishy XLs. The ballistic boat banshee and KC20 are slow as pond water.

Thursday was fun. I had a blast. But it was a terrible metric of guessing IS vs Clan balance unless the players put up a decent amount of time in their IS mechs. And judging by the lack of a presence by IS mechs, of usually only me in one, most of the ideas about balance are pure conjecture by people not having a clue and just knee jerking

I am basing my argument on the 2 years of play on the live server. (The clans merely served as an example of what I, and others, proposed a while ago.)

I do not seek to make them equal with clan Autocannons, I still want to be better than Clan (U) Autocannons to account for their expense in weight and size, but I do not want them to continue fueling the evisceration of lighter armored mechs.
The clan PTS exemplified for me the difference of being in a lighter mech versus burst AC, as opposed to FLD AC: I didn't get crushed in one area of my mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

Bishop, let me ask you this question:

In a comparison of:

3 Shells doing 6.33 damage a piece, fired every .1 seconds for a total time of .3 seconds- and 5 Shells doing 4 damage a piece, fired every .25 seconds for a total time of 1.25 seconds:


Who has the advantage?

So your solution is to do add I said would be required, and have such a ridiculously short burst add to not only not make sense (since now also by your example the is uac5 would be superior to the clan version) but to also be so short as to be negligible from single shot, and certainly minor enough to not seem to justify such an overhaul.

[Khobai]

Quote

Between burst fire and the Buckton fix, the gameplay shifted, immediately, to a longer time to kill, brawling centric style of combat.

Only because players were trying out the new weapons.

Once the newness of the clan weapons wears off everything will shift back to pinpoint damage and poptarting. Even clan mechs will be poptarting with x2 ERPPC/x1 Gauss Madcats.

Nothing has changed. Pinpoint is still dominant. Poptarting hasnt gone away.

Edited by Khobai, 14 June 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

So your solution is to do add I said would be required, and have such a ridiculously short burst add to not only not make sense (since now also by your example the is uac5 would be superior to the clan version) but to also be so short as to be negligible from single shot, and certainly minor enough to not seem to justify such an overhaul.

A: They're examples to define the concepts.
B: 0.3 seconds *is* negligible to a heavy or assault mech and would be little change.
0.3 seconds to a medium or a light mech means they get hit in 2-3 locations depending on their speed.

That is all the world to a faster mech.

Edited by Livewyr, 14 June 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

A lot of people throw around TT and Lore, so I would like to bring up a couple of points. The randomized hit location in table top doesn't have a place in a shooter. That mechanic is meant to simulate pilot aim and target agility. No one actually get's all there shots on one component. Maybe most of the shots if the person being shot keeps hill humping and exposing his/her CT like that without moving/twisting, but we shouldn't be catering to those people now, should we? If this was an RPG, sure, random hits all the way, but its not. Also, in TT all AC damage goes to one component, is that correct? (I don't know for sure, just getting info from what I read here) Regardless of burst mechanic or not? So.... it acts like a single shot but is labeled a rapid fire cannon because it sounds cooler.. got it.

A lot of people use Lore to advocate burst fire ACs, but then also (sometimes in the same post!) say PPCs should do splash damage. Well, I'm pretty sure splash damage PPCs have less place in lore than single shot autocannons!

I like how they balanced the Clan ACs, I think their burst should be a tad quicker, but it really separates the Clan vs. IS, in that the clans have superior DPS, but IS has the superior FLD, and I think that is fine.

And yes like Khobai said, the Clans have their 2 ERPPC Gauss Timber Wolves that do fine on the PPFLD, but btw that build is extremely hot, as anyone who ran it knows.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 June 2014 - 10:29 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

A: They're examples to define the concepts.
B: 0.3 seconds *is* negligible to a heavy or assault mech and would be little change.
0.3 seconds to a medium or a light mech means they get hit in 2-3 locations depending on their speed.

That is all the world to a faster mech.

and in my version, the light mech's advantage is that a missed shot gives it a much larger window to operate in. If your .3 second window is so huge, imagine what 2 whole seconds would mean. And yes, if I catch a light mech flatfooted, dead to rights or make that perfect shoot on a streaking mech, I bloody well deserve the kill.

Praehotec8, on 14 June 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

I can see the merit of the arguments on both sides of this debate, but at this point, I would be hesitant to rush to any firm conclusions yet. It certainly is nice to have mechanics that really make each side play differently, and most importantly:

at this point we really have no firm data about how pure clan vs. pure IS compare. I think we need some time playtesting faction warfare before making snap balance decisions that look good on paper but may or may not turn out well in a live environment.

Voice of reason

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

and in my version, the light mech's advantage is that a missed shot gives it a much larger window to operate in. If your .3 second window is so huge, imagine what 2 whole seconds would mean. And yes, if I catch a light mech flatfooted, dead to rights or make that perfect shoot on a streaking mech, I bloody well deserve the kill.

I believe snap-shooting a light mech a single bullet could be as much luck as it is skill. (Especially since you could be running the opposite, or a different direction that drags your crosshair over the mech, and just time the shot, as as my method.)

Trailing the mech for even .3 seconds to get rounds in the same location; That would earn you the kill you deserve.

Edited by Livewyr, 14 June 2014 - 10:32 AM.

[Livewyr]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 June 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

A lot of people throw around TT and Lore, so I would like to bring up a couple of points. The randomized hit location in table top doesn't have a place in a shooter. That mechanic is meant to simulate pilot aim and target agility. No one actually get's all there shots on one component. Maybe most of the shots if the person being shot keeps hill humping and exposing his/her CT like that without moving/twisting, but we shouldn't be catering to those people now, should we? If this was an RPG, sure, random hits all the way, but its not. Also, in TT all AC damage goes to one component, is that correct? (I don't know for sure, just getting info from what I read here) Regardless of burst mechanic or not? So.... it acts like a single shot but is labeled a rapid fire cannon because it sounds cooler.. got it.

A lot of people use Lore to advocate burst fire ACs, but then also (sometimes in the same post!) say PPCs should do splash damage. Well, I'm pretty sure splash damage PPCs have less place in lore than single shot autocannons!

I like how they balanced the Clan ACs, I think their burst should be a tad quicker, but it really separates the Clan vs. IS, in that the clans have superior DPS, but IS has the superior FLD, and I think that is fine.

And yes like Khobai said, the Clans have their 2 ERPPC Gauss Timber Wolves that do fine on the PPFLD, but btw that build is extremely hot, as anyone who ran it knows.

That sounds fine in heavy engagements.

It completely skips the problem lighter mechs face. (PPFLD = Light career ender.)

[Gas Guzzler]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

I believe snap-shooting a light mech a single bullet could be as much luck as it is skill. (Especially since you could be running the opposite, or a different direction that drags your crosshair over the mech, and just time the shot, as as my method.)

Trailing the mech for even .3 seconds to get rounds in the same location; That would earn you the kill you deserve.

It would be luck if he closed his eyes, and did not use the Force.

[Livewyr]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

It would be luck if he closed his eyes, and did not use the Force.

(Shh, I don't want PGI to nerf the Force.)

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

I believe snap-shooting a light mech a single bullet could be as much luck as it is skill. (Especially since you could be running the opposite, or a different direction that drags your crosshair over the mech, and just time the shot, as as my method.)

Trailing the mech for even .3 seconds to get rounds in the same location; That would earn you the kill you deserve.

Luck happens. Removing it completely is no answer either. And"lucky"shots, to indeed be lucky, are very rare. And as such, should not be used as a basis for balance

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Luck happens. Removing it completely is no answer either. And"lucky"shots, to indeed be lucky, are very rare. And as such, should not be used as a basis for balance

You're side-stepping the point. (And even in doing so- one could get lucky and put all three in the same location, so my comparison is moot anyways, in hindsight.)

Balance would be achieved by the IS having a tighter shot grouping (by more rapid succession of rounds) and more accuracy (by the rounds themselves moving much more quickly.)

[Gas Guzzler]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

That sounds fine in heavy engagements.

It completely skips the problem lighter mechs face. (PPFLD = Light career ender.)

I have hit lights with an AC20 without even destroying a component.

In a practice with my unit, I had an Ember giving me the circle of death in an HGN, and I plugged his torso area multiple times with an AC20 before he actually went down. Yeah, I don't have enough skill to hit the same component of a light giving me the circle of death with an AC20, I'll admit it.

I have also hit lights with 2 PPCs and 2 AC5s sync fired and had the AC5s trail behind without hitting, or hit different components then the PPCs.

I know that is anecdotal evidence which I don't like, but it is alot easier then digging up all the numbers to back up those claims. But you will find that it takes more then 20 damage to blow out a side torso of a light, maybe not a Locust I'm not sure but come on, and then the PPC/AC5 velocity disparity is enough to spread damage on lights.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 June 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Sephlock]

Reitrix, on 14 June 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

I think having different manufacturers give different shot numbers would basically push everyone towards the lowest number of shots.

There would be that tendency (although it could be counteracted by other balance chances), yes.

I think you're underestimating the allure of dakka, though.

People ran 6x ac/2s before the nerf and did so happily.

[Livewyr]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 June 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

I have hit lights with an AC20 without even destroying a component.

In a practice with my unit, I had an Ember giving me the circle of death in an HGN, and I plugged his torso area multiple times with an AC20 before he actually went down. Yeah, I don't have enough skill to hit the same component of a light giving me the circle of death with an AC20, I'll admit it.

I have also hit lights with 2 PPCs and 2 AC5s sync fired and had the AC5s trail behind without hitting, or hit different components then the PPCs.

I know that is anecdotal evidence which I don't like, but it is alot easier then digging up all the numbers to back up those claims. But you will find that it takes more then 20 damage to blow out a side torso of a light, maybe not a Locust I'm not sure but come on, and then the PPC/AC5 velocity disparity is enough to spread damage on lights.

That was address earlier.
A: Even if the Single AC20 hit didn't eliminate the armor, it savaged it in a single shot. (Leaving it far more open to destruction than a burst-fire would.)
B: PPC/AC5 meta is the death of most mediums, as they are not fast enough, typically, to avoid taking all damage to the same component.

Edited by Livewyr, 14 June 2014 - 10:45 AM.

[verybad]

So currently the IS has a tighter shot grouping already. Any change to their currently performance means making it more clanny.

How many locations were you hitting useing clan Acs? If there's no signifigant difference in play, then clans win out due to lower tonnage and crits.

[Gas Guzzler]

Another point, I feel like lights have been the strongest in this game, compared to all other MechWarrior games. Is that not true? I always remember lights not being able to go toe-to-toe with assaults. Now it happens all the time... Just saying, lights have it pretty good. Mediums play a support role more then anything, and that is where they should be.

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 14 June 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

I believe snap-shooting a light mech a single bullet could be as much luck as it is skill. (Especially since you could be running the opposite, or a different direction that drags your crosshair over the mech, and just time the shot, as as my method.)

Trailing the mech for even .3 seconds to get rounds in the same location; That would earn you the kill you deserve.

and you have sidestepped the point that following your mechanic idea consistently, the IS UAC5 actually becomes superior to the Clan version, heavier or not. And how it even remotely makes sense that the clans would take the same unit, the UAC5 and make their newer versions (of all UACs), inferior to it.