80 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

MischiefSC, on 26 July 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

Except that the TW has twice the survivability (Clan XL), the AC10 is a UAC10 and spikes damage like a beast, plus it has more range. Also the PPCs are spreading an extra 10 pts (50% more) damage on the target per hit, which they do out to half again the range. Oh, yeah, all with even better heat efficiency (even with the UAC fire and ERPPCs). I guess the AC10 for the IS being single-shot is an advantage but the UAC10 clusters pretty tight. Oh! Yeah, and the TW is still faster, on top of all that. With better arm mobility range too. Oh, and thanks to that omnipod quirk on the right torso and right arm it's got faster torso turning speed and yaw twist.

So, other than the TW being flat out superior, those are totally the same. So long as 'same' means that the TW is completely better across the board.

Missed the whole point didn't you.

Not arguing the TW has advantages, I am just pointing out that the Meta people complain about has always existed. Timberwolf brings nothing new to the table expect for being a shinny new toy that is.

[Carl Avery]

Viges, on 26 July 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

see the difference?

I do. I'm not sure what that has to do with my assessment that the old pro-build Victor still has the highest reward/effort ratio, nor my observation that many pro-level players are now choosing the Victor over the Timberwolf (presumably because the Timberwolf's novelty has worn off, and because of the pro-build Timberwolf's heat problem). I'm unsure whether the Victor or the Timberwolf is the better competitive 'mech altogether, but I would guess that it's still the Victor.

The Timberwolf has much greater speed & maneuverability than the Victor, yes, but these attributes have never really been what wins the battles in MWO; firepower & armor have always counted for more (imagine a team of cheese Victors versus a team of cheese Shadowhawks). Sure, both the Victor and the Timberwolf can mount a 35-pt. PPFLD alpha, but the Victor has a much better sustainable DPS while doing so (which does matter even for this alpha-sniping playstyle). Of course, too little speed & maneuverability are no good (which is why I haven't been seeing the pro-level players seriously running Direwolves), but the Victor looks to be once again at the sweet spot for the super-competitive players. YRMD.

Edited by Carl Avery, 26 July 2014 - 05:56 PM.

[MischiefSC]

The meta is different. Drastically different. That IS the point. Even at the top levels, all the way to the underhive.

Long range combat isn't the domain of the PPC/Gauss/sniper anymore. In fact it's really rocking its best with CERLLs right now. Still, CERPPCs are punching 50% *harder* at 50% *longer range*. Clan ACs are generally UACs, kicking out that double-fire, and again at longer range.

The TW changed the meta. Changed it completely - it's the locus where all the quirks of Clan weaponry converge.

The TW *is* the new meta. It's the Hekatonkheires, able to handle or adapt to anything. You run into a TW it could be Dakka, lasers, SRMs, LRMs, PPCs, Gauss, or any mix of the above. It can do all of it, stay cool doing it, use JJs while doing it and get blown nearly in half and still keep fighting.

That's the new meta. Honestly? I really like it. I ran an LRM brawler earlier today; it worked rather well. Not in that 'hey, I've got a Dragon build that's alright' sort of worked rather well but as in 3 kills and 600+ damage worked rather well. Not a lot of ammo but used sparingly and when you know it's almost all going to hit because you're 300m away, backed up with CERMLs and plenty of DHS.

Can the TW do 2xPPCs and an AC10? Absolutely. It can do it better than the Phract can. That it can do that and a dozen other things?

That, in the end, is the REAL point. Everyone who thinks gauss+ppc is 'the new meta' is already old news. Sure, 50pt gauss+ppc loadouts need a nerf (there will be more coming - this isn't unique) but that it can that better than any IS mech can. Just like it can do almost anything an IS mech can better.

The TW is the meta. The real magical dream is that instead of now nerfing the TW... they try to make everything else more like it.

[zortesh]

Pop-tart timber-wolves simply aren't that good, 3d is better, victor is better.

Timberwolves can do everything, but they cant do everything well, as a poptart they have too little ammo, not enough ppfld or bad heat management.

Now if you've come across massed clan cerll... I've seen this twice so far and been massacred by it...

Its nasty on alpine, when your facing a 12man and every mech has mostly just cerll's, they can just camp that hill and never move, while spraying massed lasers into anything within 2k, and the only real flanking route, the radiotower, they can do alot of damage as you attempt to move over to it, since they have that much reach.

The other time i saw massed cerll's was on crimson straits, they camped the island out in the water, and never moved, there was no practical way to close on them, no way to get locks on them for lrms, for which they were out of range for anyways.

Its nasty, i mean youd crush it if you could get in close with srms.. .or something... but that requires there making a mistake to let you get that close.

[MischiefSC]

zortesh, on 26 July 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

Pop-tart timber-wolves simply aren't that good, 3d is better, victor is better.

Timberwolves can do everything, but they cant do everything well, as a poptart they have too little ammo, not enough ppfld or bad heat management.

Now if you've come across massed clan cerll... I've seen this twice so far and been massacred by it...

Its nasty on alpine, when your facing a 12man and every mech has mostly just cerll's, they can just camp that hill and never move, while spraying massed lasers into anything within 2k, and the only real flanking route, the radiotower, they can do alot of damage as you attempt to move over to it, since they have that much reach.

The other time i saw massed cerll's was on crimson straits, they camped the island out in the water, and never moved, there was no practical way to close on them, no way to get locks on them for lrms, for which they were out of range for anyways.

Its nasty, i mean youd crush it if you could get in close with srms.. .or something... but that requires there making a mistake to let you get that close.

Can the TW poptart? Sure...

but I don't see that many poptarts doing well. Hill-humping is better. In fact with most mechs being built around the stare-down now you've got more time on target opportunities, which in turns makes the higher DPS staredown weapons more viable.

It's not just that the TW doesn't make the best poptart. It's alright at it. Not bad, but the CERPPCs are too damn hot to do it really really well.

It's that poptarting just.... isn't that viable anymore.

[Carl Avery]

MischiefSC, on 26 July 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

Long range combat isn't the domain of the PPC/Gauss/sniper anymore. In fact it's really rocking its best with CERLLs right now.

I want to believe that the PPC+[Gauss/AC5] isn't dominating the field anymore. But, if this is true, then why are the very top-scoring teams still using massed PPC+[Gauss/AC5]?

Edited by Carl Avery, 26 July 2014 - 06:04 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Destructicus, on 26 July 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

You do realize how old this thread is don't you?
You're a little late in your reply.
Check the dates of my posts and see that that post was actually the day that clan mechs came out.
So technically you're right, clan mechs didn't come out yesterday and neither did this thread.

Oops, my bad!

Interesting that people so accurately predicted the meta so very quickly though. Not surprising, but it's always good to have more evidence

[MischiefSC]

Carl Avery, on 26 July 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

I want to believe that the PPC+[Gauss/AC5] isn't dominating the field anymore. But, if this is true, then why are the very top-scoring teams still using massed PPC+[Gauss/AC5]?

I'm not really seeing that. A lot of it is always going to be familiarity but just the other night I watched some very high end folks lay the smack down with CERLLs.

Oddly I suspect the issue is the range disparity in a lot of ways. Clan weapons let you do significant damage at 800+m - however they run pretty hot to try and brawl with.

This means that a Clan mech with CERLLs or CERPPCs can do a number on DS/3Ds by just hanging back. However, if you run that load then you're in serious danger of getting rolled by a good brawling rush.

It's a lot closer to the balance I think we want. JJs leave you hanging in the open more, range/heat/DPS balance doesn't leave AC5+PPCs as undisputed leaders and there are a lot of mechs that are both fast and big on the field now.

[Adiuvo]

Carl Avery, on 26 July 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

I want to believe that the PPC+[Gauss/AC5] isn't dominating the field anymore. But, if this is true, then why are the very top-scoring teams still using massed PPC+[Gauss/AC5]?

We aren't.

[zortesh]

MischiefSC, on 26 July 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

Can the TW poptart? Sure...

but I don't see that many poptarts doing well. Hill-humping is better. In fact with most mechs being built around the stare-down now you've got more time on target opportunities, which in turns makes the higher DPS staredown weapons more viable.

It's not just that the TW doesn't make the best poptart. It's alright at it. Not bad, but the CERPPCs are too damn hot to do it really really well.

It's that poptarting just.... isn't that viable anymore.

I think its still viable and still good, its just not so good that nothing else is comparable anymore.

Carl Avery, on 26 July 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

I want to believe that the PPC+[Gauss/AC5] isn't dominating the field anymore. But, if this is true, then why are the very top-scoring teams still using massed PPC+[Gauss/AC5]?

This is true, i mean the teams i see with the erll boat timberwolves still have dragon-slayers filling out there assault slots.

We wont really know where the new meta is yet, i think peeps are still experimenting... .but i think the clan erll will be part of it.

For anyone with a timberwolf, try 4 erll's as many heatsinks as you can jam on with a targeting computer, its weirdly good.

I've seen some peeps running 6 erlarges on a timberwolf.. but i can only wonder why and scratch my head,

[Carl Avery]

Adiuvo, on 26 July 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

We aren't.

No? I just checked out that new announced pro-show thing, and it had a match dated a couple of days ago showing HoL vs StJ. Thought I saw loads of PPC+ballistic Victors on your side (and nothing but PPC+ballistic Shadowhawks on the other side). Didn't look at it very closely, though.

Edited by Carl Avery, 26 July 2014 - 07:03 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Carl Avery, on 26 July 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

No? I just checked out that new announced pro-show thing, and it had a match dated a couple of days ago showing HoL vs StJ. Thought I saw loads of PPC+ballistic Victors on your side (and nothing but PPC+ballistic Shadowhawks on the other side). Didn't look at it very closely, though.

We had a mix of brawler mediums in there as well even in the sniper oriented drops, and our last two games were basically pure brawler mechs. It's map dependent now, which ideally is how it should be.

[Carl Avery]

I'd still call six Victors running PPC+ballistic "massed PPC+ballistic," but, hey, whatever ... : )

[ShinobiHunter]

Viges, on 26 July 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

Madcat - heavy
Victor - assault

see the difference? anyone switching from wolf to 3d?

Timby is closer in weight to a Victor than a Phract though...

[El Bandito]

HBizzle, on 17 June 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

Timberwolf is the new meta...

Edited by El Bandito, 26 July 2014 - 10:17 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Metagaming is the use of out-of-game resources to influence in-game decision.

Data on Smurfy, for example, is meta data. In game your hypothetical character doesn't track weapon stats or recognize game mechanics. Hence min-max of game mechanics for the best advantage is, at its core, metagaming.

Meta works for this.

[El Bandito]

MischiefSC, on 26 July 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

Metagaming is the use of out-of-game resources to influence in-game decision. Data on Smurfy, for example, is meta data. In game your hypothetical character doesn't track weapon stats or recognize game mechanics. Hence min-max of game mechanics for the best advantage is, at its core, metagaming. Meta works for this.

No it doesn't. Game mechanics is meta--such as poptarting. A character, a champion, a mech, or in this case, Timberwolf using the exact same poptarting tactic, albeit with slightly different weapon, isn't new meta.

It is like saying AD Teemo top is the new meta in LoL, never mind that solo top lane is already in the existing meta.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 July 2014 - 10:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

You're taking meta is 'ideal loadout'.

The Timber Wolf is, in fact, quite new meta - prior to its release it didn't exist in the game, though it existed in canon.

In the context of 'Timber Wolf is, due to game-mechanic factors, new and improved over existing mechs' then yes. 'Timber Wolf is the new meta' is a legitimate thing to say.

[El Bandito]

MischiefSC, on 26 July 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

You're taking meta is 'ideal loadout'.

Didn't you also agree with me?

MischiefSC, on 26 July 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

Hence min-max of game mechanics for the best advantage is, at its core, metagaming.

[MischiefSC]

It's not all that meta is however.

I would also say that the Timber Wolf, in and of itself, is the new peak meta - it does pretty much anything and does it as well as anything else if not better.

More to the point, PPC+AC isn't really peak meta anymore for weapons loadout. The TW does brawling, lasers, PPC+ballistics, LRMs or 4 NARC + 5 TAG if you're feeling really, REALLY saucy. 7 Flamers maybe?

Hence... yeah. I'd say TW is the new meta. Best weapons loadout isn't as easy to pin down but it's lookling like something the TW does and does well.