153 replies to this topic

[Agent of Change]

RampancyTW, on 18 June 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Uhhhh

There was a 60-LRM stalker champion coinciding with the missile speed increase to 175 or 180 or whatever it was

And it only takes one mech with a target decay module to keep you targetted

So yes, if you got spotted for 1 second, you could take hits from any missile boat within 500m or so. That's how it mathematically worked out. You didn't even have to make a mistake to bring the rain.

I would, however, love to see that same speed buff without the inability to indirect fire without TAG/NARC/UAV. Make LRM fire hurt, but FORCE PLAYER INTERACTION FOR IT TO HAPPEN.

LRMS already require significant work and team work to be effective and they aren't all that great currently. They certainly need a buff but they definitely don't need any further roadblocks.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Anything to kill the useless LRM Battle Blimps that spend the entire match spamming 4000 missiles is okay in my book.

[Trauglodyte]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 June 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

The problem with this whole 'get your own locks' idea is that getting your own locks involves.. line of sight. if you have line of sight WTF are you using LRMs? Direct fire is 10x more powerful. the only strength of LRMs is indirect fire...

Since when does one preclude the other? Am I not able to equip both LRMs and PPFLD weapons? Seriously, I'm starting to think that the large majority of people that look at LRMs are half re-tarded and that is the good half.

[Varik Ronain]

I have been doing on average better now with the new modules in my catapult. I may not be able to snap fire at an enemy like I used to because of the instant target decay but I am able to narc a hell of a lot easier with the enhanced narc module. It is annoying yes but once you land a narc they still die like they used to.

[Wolfways]

Carrioncrows, on 18 June 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

Unfortunately unless you are willing to 1 of those 6 mechs then you are simply screwed.

The other 143 odd variants just have to suck at life I guess and eat their "L2P and Cover is OP" guel day in and day out

It really isn't the mechs without ECM that suck...

[VIPER2207]

RampancyTW, on 18 June 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

There was a 60-LRM stalker champion

uhhh yeah... i remember... you are talking about that LRM60-trashcan with 32 tubes in total... i thought we were talking about volleys... sorry then, my bad

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And it only takes one mech with a target decay module to keep you targetted

advanced target decay gives you a lock for 3,5 seconds, if i remember correctly... that's not enough to recycle a LRM15

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So yes, if you got spotted for 1 second, you could take hits from any missile boat within 500m or so. That's how it mathematically worked out.

yeah, and now what? when you get caught in bad place, every enemy poptart can unload his pinpoint-damage on you... what's the point with this argument?

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You didn't even have to make a mistake to bring the rain.

you did the same mistake the guy who got shot by the poptarts did... bad positioning

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I would, however, love to see that same speed buff without the inability to indirect fire without TAG/NARC/UAV. Make LRM fire hurt, but FORCE PLAYER INTERACTION FOR IT TO HAPPEN.

i would like to have 1 (in words: ONE) hardcounter against poptarts... won't ever happen, and that's totaly fine.

look.... just deal with it, when you got killed by LRMs, it was your own or your teams mistake. Close the distance to the LRM-boats and kill them, or send your lights out to kill them while you brawl... a LRM-boat attacked by lights is completely neutered.

[Trauglodyte]

Trauglodyte, on 18 June 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

Since when does one preclude the other? Am I not able to equip both LRMs and PPFLD weapons? Seriously, I'm starting to think that the large majority of people that look at LRMs are half re-tarded and that is the good half.

For the record, and I want to clear this up, I'm not slamming anyone for their thoughts on LRMs. And I'm especially not calling out Widowmaker. It just seems to me that, since Beta, the community has gone into this unimpressive and really blind "all or nothing" mind set. Yes, right now the only weapons worth using are PPCs, some ACs, and Md/Lrg Lasers. I'm hearing good things about SRMs since the patch. But, when it comes to LRMs, people get this crazy idea like you can only run LRMs. You can't back them up with anything, you can't mix and match weapons for different engagement ranges or situations, and you can't use them intelligently because spamming them indirectly for 20-25% hit rate is the best way of doing it (which means taking 2 tons of ammo per 10 tubes). THIS is what I don't get. Why is the concept of LRM brawling so horrible? What is wrong with PPCs or ACs and LRMs? I run an AWS-8V that has 2 PPCs, an ALRM15, and 2 ASRM6s and it was wonderful prior to a lot of patches. I can front load pin point damage at range with a sprinkle of LRMs to go through the holes that I just punched or I can lean on the LRMs when my heat is too high.

[Wingbreaker]

LRM boats...

Reign?

What.

[Wolfways]

RampancyTW, on 18 June 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

You can shoot back against poptarts, and the number that can shoot at you is directly limited by the number that can see you. As much as it might suck to die to poptarting, you have MUCH more control over the outcome.

lol what?
You can shoot the spotter to either kill him or make him retreat (thereby losing LOS) while you are behind cover completely negating the LRM's.
Even if there is a spotter LRM's will rarely hit you if you know how to use cover. One of the problems is that most players don't seem to know there's a difference between using cover and hiding.

Against indirect-fire the target has almost all control over the outcome.

Edited by Wolfways, 18 June 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Rampancy]

VIPER2207, on 18 June 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

uhhh yeah... i remember... you are talking about that LRM60-trashcan with 32 tubes in total... i thought we were talking about volleys... sorry then, my bad


advanced target decay gives you a lock for 3,5 seconds, if i remember correctly... that's not enough to recycle a LRM15


yeah, and now what? when you get caught in bad place, every enemy poptart can unload his pinpoint-damage on you... what's the point with this argument?


you did the same mistake the guy who got shot by the poptarts did... bad positioning


i would like to have 1 (in words: ONE) hardcounter against poptarts... won't ever happen, and that's totaly fine.

look.... just deal with it, when you got killed by LRMs, it was your own or your teams mistake. Close the distance to the LRM-boats and kill them, or send your lights out to kill them while you brawl... a LRM-boat attacked by lights is completely neutered.

A single volley is a round of fire. Please don't go full moron on me. You're smarter than this.

3.5 seconds is enough time for a LRM to travel over 500 meters currently, was enough for over 600 before. Head popping up for less than a second was enough to get targeted and hit by anything packing LRMs within a 500m radius.

People with direct fire weapons need to SEE YOU AND AIM DIRECTLY AT A POINT ON YOUR MECH TO HIT IT. One poptart getting a glimpse of you for half a second will rarely even get you shot, much less crippled.

I understand that getting killed by LRMs means I made some sort of mistake. Quit being obtuse. I'm saying it isn't fun, and I want to BUFF LRMs. But I want to do so in a way that FORCES PLAYER INTERACTION FOR THEM TO BE EFFECTIVE.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp. Saying "hurr durr people die to poptarts" is not even remotely what the conversation is about.

[Rampancy]

Wolfways, on 18 June 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

lol what?
You can shoot the spotter to either kill him or make him retreat (thereby losing LOS) while you are behind cover completely negating the LRM's.
Even if there is a spotter LRM's will rarely hit you if you know how to use cover. One of the problems is that most players don't seem to know there's a difference between using cover and hiding.

Against indirect-fire the target has almost all control over the outcome.

Not every map has readily available LRM cover. Some have essentially none. Others don't have cover from both LRMs and direct fire in most areas (Tormaline). You can avoid LRMs, yes. But it means using a mere fraction of the map, hardly moving around, and generally not interacting with your opponent.

LRMs aren't overpowered, but they aren't fun to play against en masse. I want LRMs that are a viable option in engagements (so buff their performance), but aren't stupid auto-pilot weapons outside of direct combat (so no indirect fire without spotting equipment like TAG/NARC/UAV).

[Wildstreak]

This will affect some but not all LRM Boats, I always prefer Info Gathering in place of Decay, TIG lets me determine who to shoot LRMs at in a shorter time, Information in picking targets beats longer Locks.

Widowmaker1981, on 18 June 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

The problem with this whole 'get your own locks' idea is that getting your own locks involves.. line of sight. if you have line of sight WTF are you using LRMs? Direct fire is 10x more powerful. the only strength of LRMs is indirect fire...

Easy, think of all the times when 3+ team members gang up on a target blocking your direct LOS.
Direct Fire - Either you shoot your ally or hold fire.
LRMs - can be shot over your allies, no one but that target hurt.

[Wolfways]

RampancyTW, on 18 June 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Not every map has readily available LRM cover. Some have essentially none. Others don't have cover from both LRMs and direct fire in most areas (Tormaline). You can avoid LRMs, yes. But it means using a mere fraction of the map, hardly moving around, and generally not interacting with your opponent.

And there's part of the problem players are having with LRM's. Different thoughts on "what is cover?"
Imo Alpine and Caustic have some cover but you have to be more careful. Tourmaline has about an equal amount of cover and open areas. It's the one map where i find using LRM's either easy (because players wander around in the open) or impossible. All other maps are nothing but cover, apart from the open water areas.

[VIPER2207]

RampancyTW, on 18 June 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

A single volley is a round of fire. Please don't go full moron on me. You're smarter than this.

First: Sorry, i had this discussion way too often, maybe i got a little short fuse on this topic. my apology for this.

that discussion about what a volley is and what not is dead for me, sorry... if i want to shoot a LRM-volley, i need as many tubes on my mechs as i have LRMs in my launchers. And honestly, that's a pro-point for your side of the discussion, that something like a LRM-60-volley is even possibly. And yes, i have to admit, the LRM-60-Awesome is a beast, i run one myself, just for surprising people in 12-mans, where nobody is expecting LRMs

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3.5 seconds is enough time for a LRM to travel over 500 meters currently, was enough for over 600 before. Head popping up for less than a second was enough to get targeted and hit by anything packing LRMs within a 500m radius.

true, and i didn't say anything against it. But it's not enough time to fire the launchers more than once, that's what i wanted to say.

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People with direct fire weapons need to SEE YOU AND AIM DIRECTLY AT A POINT ON YOUR MECH TO HIT IT. One poptart getting a glimpse of you for half a second will rarely even get you shot, much less crippled.

oh, the skilled ones will, trust me. When i'm dropping with guys from my unit, i sometimes end up in kind of allstar-matches... lords, SJR and whoever in these matches... these guys WILL hit you.

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I understand that getting killed by LRMs means I made some sort of mistake. Quit being obtuse. I'm saying it isn't fun, and I want to BUFF LRMs. But I want to do so in a way that FORCES PLAYER INTERACTION FOR THEM TO BE EFFECTIVE.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp. Saying "hurr durr people die to poptarts" is not even remotely what the conversation is about.

my point here is, that LRMs are a at least not completely useless way to scare poptarts, and this new module will end this, because they are safe now.
i don't have a problem with getting killed by LRMs, nor do i have one when getting killed by a poptart... like i said, i made a mistake, and i can admit that.

[Lightfoot]

Time for some Counter-Counter Measures. That's all.

[Xmith]

A person will have to replace one of the modules they have in place now. The modules I currently use are very important to me. I can't imagine playing without the ones I'm using at the moment.

I do not find the Radar Deprivation Module to be a must have.

[Rampancy]

VIPER2207, on 18 June 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

First: Sorry, i had this discussion way too often, maybe i got a little short fuse on this topic. my apology for this.

that discussion about what a volley is and what not is dead for me, sorry... if i want to shoot a LRM-volley, i need as many tubes on my mechs as i have LRMs in my launchers. And honestly, that's a pro-point for your side of the discussion, that something like a LRM-60-volley is even possibly. And yes, i have to admit, the LRM-60-Awesome is a beast, i run one myself, just for surprising people in 12-mans, where nobody is expecting LRMs


true, and i didn't say anything against it. But it's not enough time to fire the launchers more than once, that's what i wanted to say.


oh, the skilled ones will, trust me. When i'm dropping with guys from my unit, i sometimes end up in kind of allstar-matches... lords, SJR and whoever in these matches... these guys WILL hit you.


my point here is, that LRMs are a at least not completely useless way to scare poptarts, and this new module will end this, because they are safe now.
i don't have a problem with getting killed by LRMs, nor do i have one when getting killed by a poptart... like i said, i made a mistake, and i can admit that.

Yeah, I think the new module is a touch overkill given current mechanics. I just bought 2 to put on my Novas, though, because I was getting sick of brief glimpses through buildings etc. allowing 200+ LRMs to get through to me. AMS isn't particularly effective, either-- AMS is awesome when shooting at missiles arcing over your head to teammates behind you, but as personal defense it just doesn't do much to a 30+ missile cloud. Was still running into issues with my 2-AMS Nova with Overload. Helpful, but doesn't cut it.

I think that landing a NARC or being able to hold a TAG on an opponent though should be rewarded with 200m/s, tightly grouped missile swarms of death that blow the target to hell if it can't find cover. Or similarly being able to hold onto a target in the open (which exposes you to return fire by virtue of having to maintain lock) should be rewarded by damage that lets LRMs be viable against direct-fire weapons.

[Wolfways]

RampancyTW, on 18 June 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Yeah, I think the new module is a touch overkill given current mechanics. I just bought 2 to put on my Novas, though, because I was getting sick of brief glimpses through buildings etc. allowing 200+ LRMs to get through to me.

If you are behind buildings how are the LRM's hitting you?

[Rampancy]

Wolfways, on 18 June 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

If you are behind buildings how are the LRM's hitting you?

Not all of them are tall enough to stop LRM fire

[ExoForce]

Wolfways, on 18 June 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

If you are behind buildings how are the LRM's hitting you?

arc swing ninja shoot.

Since I am LRM boat (PUG) I find this topic very depressive for the PUG dog in my cockpit.

Edited by ExoForce, 18 June 2014 - 11:21 AM.