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It's Time To Do Something About Lrms


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#41 Lightfoot

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 07:09 PM

@OP,

I know. Why don't you carry an LRM launcher on your mech too? If it has a missile slot. If it has several, put LRM5's in it as these are actually pretty good for a secondary LRM system. You would learn to both use and avoid LRMs that way. They are not very good it turns out, but LRMs allow you to do a little damage to targets prior to using your direct fire weapons.

Edited by Lightfoot, 18 June 2014 - 07:10 PM.


#42 MischiefSC

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 07:52 PM

Run LRMs on IS, then Clans. First, see if you can put 60 tubes on a 75 ton IS mech with support lasers and ~1000 rounds, plus JJs and BAP.

When you can't, run the best build with IS you can then a comparable tonnage Clan one.

Clan LRMs are like a laser compared to regular LRMs. For example, last match I took LRMs to my right side. Slight yellow armor, save my right side, which got destroyed completely. Regular LRMs don't do that. They need to be a little slower - OR spread out a bit, as much as IS LRMs.

Currently though they cluster too tightly and travel too quick.

#43 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 07:59 PM

I find the Dual GR/Dual ERPPC a far more annoying loadout then LRMs.

LRMs are more a morale thing than any real damage. I have simply side stepped and received minimal damage from LRMs. Then toss in the AMS and AMS of surrounding friendly mechs, LRMs are not that big an issue.

However, being able to 1 shot 85t assault mechs and 2 shotting 100 tonners, I think that is more an issue then anything...I swear, as ******** a feature as it would be, I would almost be ok with chain fire being the only way to fire PPC and GR. And not being able to charge up more than 1 GR at a time.

As for Poptarts, putting reticule shake on the mech the entire time its airborne, reducing accuracy would reduce their overall effectiveness.

#44 El Bandito

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 08:10 PM

View PostLevi Porphyrogenitus, on 18 June 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Lolwut? LRMs are pretty well balanced right now, except for ECM and Radar Deprivation module, which both really hurt LRMs and don't matter nearly as much for anything else. If anything, the RD module needs a nerf (make it eliminate the base decay timer, but allow the [Adv] Target Decay module still to add the listed time), and ECM has needed a complete rework since its introduction (move from a hard counter system to one of soft counters).


This.

This.

This.

#45 SirLANsalot

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 08:12 PM

2 topics...one calling for a buff, the other a nerf.

LRMS = TOTAL SUCCESS! They are perfectly balanced right now

#46 Sandpit

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 08:12 PM

http://mwomercs.com/...eed-a-buff-now/
Lol

#47 Jakob Knight

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 08:36 PM

It's always amusing to see posts like this one, where there is a general cry to get rid of a weapon because 'there are too many of them on the battlefield'. Yet, how many lasers, how many autocannon, how many gauss rifles are similarly on the field, and not a peep of concern about them.

LRMs are the target of so much flack because there are players who cannot understand any weapon that is not direct-fire. To them, LRMs are 'unfair', 'lazy', and 'no-skill', which are just substitutes for 'something I can't deal with'. Why? Because no other weapon has the number of counter-measures, disadvantages, and number of requirements to use successfully than this one weapons system. ECM, AMS, Cover, absolute lowest projectile speed in he game by far, the requirement of a lock-on, the requirement the firing mech maintain that lock-on through the entire flight time of those projectiles, a very long minimum range, Radar Depravation module, and the spreading of damage across the target when there -is- a hit are all obstacles an LRM unit has to overcome every moment of the battle to get their weapons to do damage. This in addition to the normal problems of ammo-based weapons. This makes the idea that LRMs are in any way a weapon not requiring skill an utterly blind statement. They require a -different- set of skills in addition to the ones other weapons use, and because of that, certain players cannot accept their existence in what is, to them, supposed to be only a point-and-click game.

To say you can't deal with such disadvantaged weapons when you have no problem with gauss boats, autocannon boats, PPC boats, Laser boats, and everything else in between, points not to a problem with the weapon, but of the pilot.

Finally, let me clue you in on how LRMs -originally- were designed to work. They fired at the same rate as every other weapon, they travelled to their targets at the same rate as every other weapon (i.e. instantly, no time to evade), they had only an increasing chance to miss with their minimum range, not a full magical mitigation of all damage at 180 meters. They did not require lock-ons. They were not affected in the least by ECM. They could be fired indirectly either with another unit spotting, or by the firing unit spotting for itself. They outranged almost every other weapon in the game.

And they were still regarded as secondary weapons except on mechs designed to use them in quantity, the 'boats' so many decry.

LRMs in MWO are a shadow of what they are supposed to be, and suffer a great many penalties for the abilities they do have. Those who want LRMs to lose their indirect fire ability should be aware they are also advocating the removal of minimum range and lock-on requirements for these weapons at the same time, as both of these are only in the game to balance out the unique ability of LRMs to fire indirectly. Remove that ability, and those restrictions -must- go as well.

So stop crying about LRMs not requiring skill to use or that they have to somehow be artificially limited in number. Every other weapon in the game is both easier to use and uncontrolled in the numbers each side can take, so don't go telling me we have to put -more- restrictions on LRM usage without also limiting the numbers of -every- -other- -weapon- in the game. The next time you face a line of heavies all sporting twin gauss rifles, think about how grateful you are that they weren't LRM boats because you are convinced you will last a lot longer against the dozen+ gauss rifles all hitting you.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 18 June 2014 - 08:38 PM.


#48 MischiefSC

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 08:51 PM

LRMs are relatively tough to use but easier than, say, CERLLs to keep on target. They offer incredible bang for the buck and the ability to kill your enemy without ever exposing yourself to fire. Spare us all the 'LRMs should be even tougher so don't complain/LRMs are elite' speech. I'm boating them on my Timber Wolf to more easily and quickly max out basics - because they load up damage and kills almost regardless of any other factors. They are feast/famine however, as bad maps and bad teams make them nearly useless, while a moderately competent or ideal selection of both make them super-powerful.

CLRMs though travel too quickly and drill too tightly. Not a lot, but a little.

#49 Thunder Child

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 08:59 PM

Ah..... the LRM's are OP thread again....
I take full responsibility. It's my fault. I was piloting my Kitfox and Narc'ing things for a Lance of LRM boats.
My bad.

#50 Kiiyor

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:51 PM

View PostSilverlance, on 18 June 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

I know I'm not the only one. But the amount of LRMs before Clan Mechs was bad. Now it's three times as bad. And something needs to be done to quell the amount of mechs allowed into a match that can boat LRM systems and 2-3k+ rounds of ammo.


SOLUTION:

Posted Image

Seriously. Nevermind the triple madness there, even a single AMS is devestating against even the hordes of LRMS that Clan boats can stream downrange.

If they really bother you, the AMS range and AMS Overload modules are stupendous at swatting swarms of blue cheese out of the sky. Not just 'eh, I think I can tell it's working...' effective....

Also, the missile immunity from Radar Deprivation is just that - near immunity to LRMs. Sure, it doesn't function if the enemy team has you in their sights, but really, if the enemy team has you in their sights there's probably more going on than just missiles landing on you. And before anyone cries foul about having to 'waste' modules on AMS, it's really a choice you have!

Never in the history of MWO have our intrepid mechwarriors had more tools at their disposal to combat LRMs.

#51 MischiefSC

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:54 PM

So every build and every teams tactics (sticking togther to multiply AMS effectiveness) should be driven, every game, by trying to defend against one specific weapon system. Not just talking about sticking to cover, you do that every match, but dealing with indirect LRM fire should be a fundamental aspect of every teams development and tactics?

Stop being silly. LRMs shouldn't be any more or less relevant than any other weapon. Clan LRMs are too fast and cluster too tight. Fix that so they work like IS LRMs, which is to say dangerous and effective when used well - like every other decent weapon.

#52 Kilo 40

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 10:11 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 18 June 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

They are feast/famine however, as bad maps and bad teams make them nearly useless, while a moderately competent or ideal selection of both make them super-powerful.


you just described every weapon in the game

#53 MischiefSC

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 10:13 PM

No I didn't. Not UACs, no PPCs, not large lasers. Only SRMs a little. Not MLs save for sniper-heavy matches.

You're trying to make false comparisons between LRMs and other weapons. You can't - they have a few unique factors. Which is great! They should! They need indirect fire. They're pretty well balanced. IS LRMs are very well balanced.
Clan LRMs though are too fast and focus too tight.

#54 Ozeo

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 11:01 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 18 June 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

No I didn't. Not UACs, no PPCs, not large lasers. Only SRMs a little. Not MLs save for sniper-heavy matches.

You're trying to make false comparisons between LRMs and other weapons. You can't - they have a few unique factors. Which is great! They should! They need indirect fire. They're pretty well balanced. IS LRMs are very well balanced.
Clan LRMs though are too fast and focus too tight.


To put it bluntly, your wrong.
Clan missiles fly faster, but they also stream out, I run LRM boats so I know what I'm talking about. In my awesome I can dump out 60 lrm in a single salve, however to do the same in clan it takes triple the amount of time.

This is because Is missiles clump together, while clans stream.

Speed is irrelevant since you cannot cycle your weapons sooner, if you want to discuss dodging, then if you hear the missile warning if its clan missiles, you can take a few hits but still Dodge the majority of them.

If it's IS, you can only dodge if it's a different solvo.

I could illustrate my point with pictures and videos if you wish?

Fear IS missiles more.

Edited by Ozeo, 18 June 2014 - 11:04 PM.


#55 MischiefSC

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 11:14 PM

I'm running CLRMs *right now*. On two builds I'm alternating as I master my Twolves.

Speed is relevant because it equates to accuracy, same as it does for projectile speed. Less time for the target to get away, more likely that the missiles will fall in the same location. Also with that tight focus CLRMs tend to stream damage into the same location.

Slower and a bit more spread, like IS LRMs, means more damage spread, more intercepts from AMS and more potential to avoid taking damage by getting to cover. We just did this with IS LRMs - hence why they got slowed down and their spread widened a bit, the same issue.

IS LRMs are great. CLRMs need a bit of a tweak. When you can't easily put 60 on a 75 ton mech it's less of an issue.

#56 DmOcRsi

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 11:31 PM

I have to agree with the OP, the LRM's have just gotten way out-of-hand now. And it's not that LRM's are bad.. it's just the sheer amount of them. When each team has about half of their team just sitting back and LRM'ing anything that gets targeted it's just redundant and boring.

"Get cover." - When I can, I do.. but there are maps which don't really allow for this. (i.e. Caustic Valley)

"Use ECM" - ECM is very limited to only a few mechs.

"Use LRM's" - It really sucks the fun out of the game in my OPINION. It's just not for me... and I'd like to believe that more people would find brawling more fun, but maybe I'm just crazy.

So no.. LRM's aren't evil... it's just the crazy amount of them that are equipped during each round. It's getting crazy...

#57 Kiiyor

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 11:37 PM

View PostDmOcRsi, on 18 June 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

I have to agree with the OP, the LRM's have just gotten way out-of-hand now. And it's not that LRM's are bad.. it's just the sheer amount of them. When each team has about half of their team just sitting back and LRM'ing anything that gets targeted it's just redundant and boring.

"Get cover." - When I can, I do.. but there are maps which don't really allow for this. (i.e. Caustic Valley)

"Use ECM" - ECM is very limited to only a few mechs.

"Use LRM's" - It really sucks the fun out of the game in my OPINION. It's just not for me... and I'd like to believe that more people would find brawling more fun, but maybe I'm just crazy.

So no.. LRM's aren't evil... it's just the crazy amount of them that are equipped during each round. It's getting crazy...


What about AMS?

#58 Logan812

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 11:41 PM

If by doing something you mean leaving LRMs just the way they are, then I agree.

Seriously, do most of the complainers even realize how easy it is to dodge long-range LRMs just by MOVING? I've avoided many full-on LRM attacks without the help of ECM and/or AMS, and I pilot an Orion! It's not exactly a fast mech.

#59 GreyGriffin

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 11:49 PM

The perpetrator here is ECM.

As long as ECM can completely negate a weapons system, it's pretty much impossible to balance it. It has two states... in play, against non-ECM, or wasted tonnage, against ECM. I am sure LRM boats can feel it with me. You've all been in those matches where your longest lock is 0.5 seconds and you die with full bins.

Once we get an Information Warfare and Role Warfare pillar, we can talk about LRM balance. My personal preference would be a dynamic spread based on "quality" of the lock, such as the range to the target relay 'mech, the sensor signature of the target, and the use of TAG or Narc. But all of those mechanics are predicated on a complete rebalance of ECM.

#60 MischiefSC

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 11:50 PM

My Twolves don't even have AMS - only one side torso has it and it's not the one I need. I do a lot of killing with CLRMs though.

Slower, a bit, a spread, just a bit.





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