95 replies to this topic

[Bigg Robb]

Note: I couldn't afford to buy a pack, so this is my take from simply playing in the game, not playing Clan Mechs.

It's faaantastic, beautiful work. PGI should be proud. Over the top with new sound effects and all. Just really adds to the immersion factor. Clan Mech's are like as I remember from tabletop when the invasion first happened- superior war machines mopping the floor with Inner Sphere units. I appreciate the work PGI is doing.

But, there is no way to balance out the Clan superiority with tactics and numbers. Star vs Company isn't going to happen for a casual gamer like me in PUG play. MWO Clanners don't practice Zellbrigen. IS units can't adopt Clan salvage These are things that equalized the battle field back in the story line.

This isn't Battletech, though, it's MWO.

Team balance is achieved right now, and I do think it is pretty balanced, by the fact that a given random game will have roughly even amounts of Clan and IS at roughly equal tonnage. What is 'meta' or whatever for one side is true for both. Yes I know some will drop in groups with coms, but more or less everyone is in the same boat and 12 vs 12 is always going to be pretty balanced especially when the match builder works.

But on the individual level, I'm getting my ass kicked.

I noted in another thread I'm trying to level a Battlemaster right now. Pretty much I'm just getting killed every game. I cannot bring the firepower in terms of tonnage and heat management to compete in the same weight class against a heavy or assault Clanner nor can I be maneuverable enough to compete against the lighter Clan mechs my firepower does match.

(Do not send me your Battlemaster builds. Not the point. Nor do I need to hear about what awesome players you are and how your 5.7 KDR Jager just eats Timberwolves and how I should just learn to play better.)

Here is my point. Escalation was going to happen. It's true in other games (Mechwarrior Dark Age, anybody?) and it was inevitably going to be true here too. It's not PGI's fault; there's no other way. If the Clan Mechs weren't superior they wouldn't be Clan Mechs and we would all scream lame. Likewise, a given IS Mech will NEVER be equivalent to a like tonnage Clan Mech. It just can't be. It's not going to happen.

(Don't send me stats on DPS and burn times for lasers and such. I've read it today.)

Again, the 12 vs 12 play is balanced, but as an individual player I realize I'm simply a c-bill machine for the next Timberwolf that locks on to me.

Eventually Clan units will be available for c-bills and then I can start the long grind of building up a few units, and then I'll probably enjoy play like I did a few days ago. But for now my sense of good sportsmanship is stretched to the end and I think a few of my units are going to need to get garaged.

[Noth]

How can clan mechs be superior when they die just as easily, heavily lack pin point damage (the true fast killers of mechs) and are less customizable? I play clan mechs currently because they are harder to do well in as they spread damage on their target so much more and cannot shield themselves as well.

[Rampancy]

Yeah, I've been doing less total damage in my IS mechs but as good and/or better in the kills/deaths department. Still roughly an even situation imo.

[SuomiWarder]

My experience so far is 8 of 10 matches the side with the most Clan mechs wins. One on one in my IS mechs I might as well use the non existance self destruct key. A Timberwolf killed my standard engine, fresh armor Orion in about four seconds today. I got one AC-20 shot and a pair of large lasers burned into it. It seemed to be a bunch of ultra AC-5s that shredded me. In aother match I had a fresh Battlemaster that was an LRM boat but packed 3 medium lasers. A Timberwolf with a red CT and four working lasers (2 clan er meds, 2 clan er larges). I torso twisted between shots, but it took five CT hits with my mediums before the already red CT enemy died and by then he had turned all three of my torso sections red.

[GreyGriffin]

As a now-dedicated Clan player, I get wrecked plenty.

Wait for the Clan 'mech to commit and juke him out until he is riding high on his heat curve, then your superior precision damage and better heat management will let you dive in for the kill.

Unless you're up against dual gauss/PPC Dire wolves.... ...nnnnot much you can do about that.

[Aresye]

SuomiWarder, on 19 June 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

My experience so far is 8 of 10 matches the side with the most Clan mechs wins. One on one in my IS mechs I might as well use the non existance self destruct key. A Timberwolf killed my standard engine, fresh armor Orion in about four seconds today. I got one AC-20 shot and a pair of large lasers burned into it. It seemed to be a bunch of ultra AC-5s that shredded me. In aother match I had a fresh Battlemaster that was an LRM boat but packed 3 medium lasers. A Timberwolf with a red CT and four working lasers (2 clan er meds, 2 clan er larges). I torso twisted between shots, but it took five CT hits with my mediums before the already red CT enemy died and by then he had turned all three of my torso sections red.

I've actually experienced the complete opposite, with the sides that have more IS mechs winning the match.

Pinpoint damage ain't no joke. One hit from a poptarting Victor and my Timberwolf's side torso is already down to internal armor.

Mistakes are less forgiving too. Often times if I push too far ahead in an IS mech I can make it out with most of my weapons and armor intact if I high tail it out of there, but in a Clan mech (despite the faster speed) if I push too far, I'm guaranteed to lose at least one of my torsos. Add on the fact that Clan mechs have less back armor due to their look on retreating as dishonorable, it makes it very, very hard to survive that kind of situation.

[Sug]

Clan mechs seem to be pretty vulnerable to the poptart meta that's been set aside while everyone plays with Clan mechs.

So far the TW is only one I've found to be any kind of trouble. Everything else is either too big, too slow, or it can't handle it's own weapons load. Stormcrow looks mean as hell but beams have never been any kind of threat and the clan versions are even harder to use.

It's like they balanced the Clans vs IS mechs with all the suggestions we've given them over the years on how to balance IS vs IS mechs. The only advantage Clan mechs have is they can't be killed by a side torso shot.

It's Phoenix all over again. We'll have a week or two of matches with a good mix of mechs, then everyone will figure out the best clan mechs and we'll never see the others again.

Timber Wolf is this pack's Shadowhawk.

Edited by Sug, 19 June 2014 - 10:46 PM.

[Malorish]

It's bad now, but don't worry it's going to get worse.

Why?

1. People are still skilling up their clan mechs. Those mechs are getting more efficient, faster, and with a better heat and turn/twist rates every day.
2. Wait until the clan modules are more widely used.
3. Right now we're getting a huge variance in builds. Wait until people have a chance to compare notes and figure out some really crazy, mech shredding builds. And then those builds get passed around . . .
4. And finally, wait until good and mediocre pilots have more time to get used to the Clan mechs . . . they will get better once they figure out the little intricacies.

The balance is tipped pretty heavily in favor of all the Clan Mechs (except their lights, which are crap), and it's not going to get any better.

The only IS mech I'm having good success with is my 2x gauss Jag at longer ranges. Since the TW / DW are the new hotness, they draw a lot of fire. I typically shadow one or more of them and can still pull out 1-3 kills per match.

But should my IS mech have to brawl (any of them) against a Clan mech, I'm usually toast inside 3 seconds. I've even been 1 shot in my STD engine heavies several times since Tuesday.

Overall, I understand that PGI needs the money. They've hit upon a great cash strategy . . . pay to win that's acceptable (since Clan mechs are supposed to be superior in the lore, we all just kinda go along with it).

I'll be back in a couple of months once we can buy the good clan mechs for C-bills.

See folks in a couple of months.

[NextGame]

I like that I can shoot people with large lasers from about 1000m away in my clan mechs. Will have to try some ppc's soon™

[Sturmbringer]

good post. thats how I see it.. the Clan mechs are definitly STRONGER theyre not OP.

I believe IS vs Clan matches would be insane roflstomps, thats why there is no faction warfare.

2xCPPC + 2 clan gauss oneshots pretty much everything.. just wait till the playtime is over and clan mechs are
skilled and the best builds are getting popular. you will get destroyed in IS mechs. no doubt.

[Onmyoudo]

I've been doing exactly as well in my Muromets as I was against IS mechs. In fact, I actually look forward to shooting at the clan mechs because their pilots think they can outgun anyone and don't even bother torso twisting half the time. Clans are remarkably balanced given the lore. Fact: they're not superior. Fact: an IS mech can be and is equivalent to a clan mech right now. I know you said you're levelling BLRs, and that might be your problem - no dual efficiencies or whatever (such a ridiculous system). But you also say:

Quote

Again, the 12 vs 12 play is balanced, but as an individual player I realize I'm simply a c-bill machine for the next Timberwolf that locks on to me.

Which is one, not true, and two, self-fulfilling if you're just gonna give up every time you see a TBR appear. I'm not going to say you need to learn to play without knowing what you're doing, but you can still contribute a lot to a match even if you do die every time e.g. 400 -500 damage, 7+ assists.

[Ari Dian]

Sug, on 19 June 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

Clan mechs seem to be pretty vulnerable to the poptart meta that's been set aside while everyone plays with Clan mechs.

So far the TW is only one I've found to be any kind of trouble. Everything else is either too big, too slow, or it can't handle it's own weapons load. Stormcrow looks mean as hell but beams have never been any kind of threat and the clan versions are even harder to use.

It's like they balanced the Clans vs IS mechs with all the suggestions we've given them over the years on how to balance IS vs IS mechs. The only advantage Clan mechs have is they can't be killed by a side torso shot.

It's Phoenix all over again. We'll have a week or two of matches with a good mix of mechs, then everyone will figure out the best clan mechs and we'll never see the others again.

Timber Wolf is this pack's Shadowhawk.

But you did not forget, that most dont have the XP for the clan mechs so far? They are leveling these. Once the Clan mechs have max XP with their 3 modules, they will become better, and more dangerous.

[Piney II]

I definitely don't think I can out gun everyone in my Clan mechs. As for torso twisting, its a little more problematic when you have to keep your lasers on target longer given the burn time.

I've died in my Clan mechs to a wide variety of I.S machines, usually as a result of me doing something stupid or just encountering better pilots - just like I die in my I.S mechs.

The hand wringing and hysteria over Clan mechs should die down a bit in the coming weeks. I.S pilots will know them better and get better at countering them.

[RangerGee412]

Eh just hang in there bud. I usually do good but have been having a bad couple of days. It happens. Battlemasters are a fun mech but you need those efficiencies. Once you get it maxed you should be golden.

[Atheus]

OP: There's a new module that has essentially nullified the LRM threat if your team isn't brawling, so you will have certain targets or teams that just can't be LRM'd all that well. Forget the LRMs and switch to direct fire and you'll probably have a more consistent experience. Don't forget your radar deprivation module and AMS, though. LRM nullification only works if you use it.

Noth, on 19 June 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

How can clan mechs be superior when they die just as easily, heavily lack pin point damage (the true fast killers of mechs) and are less customizable?

They don't suffer side torso death with XL, so they don't exactly die just as easily. And the answer to your question is with superior damage, range, and heat dissipation from smaller and lighter internals.

GreyGriffin, on 19 June 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

As a now-dedicated Clan player, I get wrecked plenty.

Probably because clan mechs are on both sides. This doesn't mean you don't have an advantage over IS tech.

Sug, on 19 June 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

Clan mechs seem to be pretty vulnerable to the poptart meta that's been set aside while everyone plays with Clan mechs.

This is a popular apology for clan superiority. The OP is not using the poptart or PPFLD approach. If this is the only way to compete with clan, IS may as well remove lasers and missiles from all mechs.

Onmyoudo, on 20 June 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:

I've been doing exactly as well in my Muromets as I was against IS mechs. In fact, I actually look forward to shooting at the clan mechs because their pilots think they can outgun anyone and don't even bother torso twisting half the time.

If your opponent is not torso twisting damage, that's a defect of the pilot, not the tech. Either that or they have a weapon that requires constant aim, in which case you only have an advantage if you're using PPFLD.

Piney, on 20 June 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

I definitely don't think I can out gun everyone in my Clan mechs. As for torso twisting, its a little more problematic when you have to keep your lasers on target longer given the burn time.

It would be silly to think you can outgun everyone in your clan mech. You can only outgun the IS mechs.

Piney, on 20 June 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

I've died in my Clan mechs to a wide variety of I.S machines, usually as a result of me doing something stupid or just encountering better pilots - just like I die in my I.S mechs.

Yep, clan mechs still require proper piloting, and the increased firepower also gives you some strategic options when you're facing less powerful IS mechs. If you do something stupid in a clan mech, though, you will take damage you didn't need to. The main difference is that when you are shooting the enemy, you'll generally hit harder than you would have in an IS mech.

[Sug]

Atheus, on 20 June 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

This is a popular apology for clan superiority. The OP is not using the poptart or PPFLD approach. If this is the only way to compete with clan, IS may as well remove lasers and missiles from all mechs.

Well yeah. Beams and missiles have been inferior to ballistics for awhile now.

[Sug]

Ari Dian, on 20 June 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

But you did not forget, that most dont have the XP for the clan mechs so far? They are leveling these. Once the Clan mechs have max XP with their 3 modules, they will become better, and more dangerous.

I'm sure the people that have mastered their Dragons and Awesomes would disagree with you on how much full XP trees and module slots can improve a mech.

Now take those mechs at their stock speeds.

Yeah.

[elismallz]

RangerGee412, on 20 June 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

Eh just hang in there bud. I usually do good but have been having a bad couple of days. It happens. Battlemasters are a fun mech but you need those efficiencies. Once you get it maxed you should be golden.

Ranger speaks the truth. While I haven't played my battlemasters since Tuesday, they were pretty tough to do well in until the extras were unlocked.

[Phlinger]

For everyone saying it's going to get worse, I'll offer a counter point to that argument.

Tactics. They are a changing and learning how to deal with a new threat takes time. Right now, the clan mechs moving fast, rotating at great speeds and seem unkillable for many pilots. That couldn't be farther from the truth. They are killable, and easily too. The trick is, we are in the middle of an adjustment phase, the pain is when we go through, after everyone learns just how easy a Timberwolf dies (about as easy as a STD engine Orion) we'll be out of the darker sections of the woods and people will look back and say "It wasn't that bad"

[Atheus]

Sug, on 20 June 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

I'm sure the people that have mastered their Dragons and Awesomes would disagree with you on how much full XP trees and module slots can improve a mech.

Now take those mechs at their stock speeds.

Yeah.

Wait, what? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but aren't you saying they'll disagree but assert the same thing? Full efficiencies make a mech run substantially faster and cooler, so who is disagreeing with whom?

Edit: never mind. I see what you're driving at. For some reason I read "Dragonslayer" when you wrote Dragon. It's still a weird point, since the guy you were responding to was basically saying the opposite... the mechs that seem overpowered now aren't even in their Super Saiyan form yet.

Edited by Atheus, 20 June 2014 - 09:00 AM.