12 replies to this topic

[cock a doodle do]

So I have heard this term "lost tech" banded around, do we find it eventually ? Surly It is not simply "stuff" that has been forgotten . . . Because that is simply silly . . . you can't un-remember technology . . . So what is it . . . We never got Mech warrior on my island, the tv signal didn't stretch that far so i missed the whole 80's MW thing . . .

[Koniving]

Well.. In the simplest terms lets just say this.

If you've ever seen Firefly, the Battletech (and thus MWO) universe is very similar.

In Firefly, there's one or two planets with the best tech around, and all the other planets colonized by people have increasingly less technology as they go farther and farther out.

In Battletech, multiply this by thousands of colonized planets; some with extremely sparse education systems and some completely abandoned. Then you have pirate problems, merc groups and corporations monopolizing things, government secrets, etc. The best technologies in the possession of each faction are kept very close to their capital planets, and none of them can compete with what is on Earth.

Terra (Earth) is at the center of the map (literally). It's run by Comstar, which in turn has the best technology the IS has. But even then, it's inferior to what the universe once had several hundred years ago. Everyone else has significantly inferior tech to Comstar's.

Thankfully, until the Word of Blake era, Comstar is a neutral party; a sort of Illuminati while the other factions duke it out.

Most battlemechs are between decades to centuries old, just repeatedly salvaged and repaired or built from the automatic factories that still stand. The factories work, but most of the technology isn't actually understood anymore. Battlemechs of 3049 are significantly inferior to those of the 2400's to the 2700's. Those back then were much more comparable to gundams (without the constant flight or space viability). Some even transformed into jets (I'm not joking; Battletech was influenced heavily by many Japanese mecha shows. The heaviest influences for mech-ability are from Patlabor and 08th mobile suit squadron. They used guns, coordinated attacks, hand signals, threw grenades, flipped tanks, smashed through buildings, and even picked up broken arms to use as clubs.

But many things including regular gundams, Robotech/Macross (which provided mechs that could turn into jets and Marauders), and various others influenced how the mechs looked up until the Harmony Gold lawsuit. Then they became pretty ugly.

Control influences in visual forms (videos) as well as some little things they influenced.

Spoiler

(A brilliant but short combat scene that perfectly illustrates why Single Shot Tank-Cannon disposable Rifles (sarna Reference) were replaced with embedded burst and automatic fire Autocannons (saran reference). A short opening video tidbit that gives you a much better idea of basic controls. An abridged Patlabor episode 1 where the first minutes should cover everything. a full length vid with closed captioning can be found here, reflected in Battletech's agricultural, police, etc.'s "industrial mechs." Sarna reference).

While not my favorite scene, if you ever tried to play tabletop or Megamek [a digital tabletop], you'll recognize over thirty things that can be directly pointed out in BT's tabletop rules, from crushing buildings by jumping on them to lots of abilities and slipping on asphult in this 08th mobile suit squadron short clip.

You'll notice that despite their abilities they still have the look and feel of heavy, somewhat clumsy machines; this is what BT has always tried to capture. Not so well captured in MWO.

Battlemechs of 3049? Lucky to be able to do basic swings and kicks, climb hills using their hands, and basic dodges with chances of falling over in the process. Oh, they can also lay down and go prone, crouch, hold themselves up with one hand while firing with the other. That's still something they can do in our current timeline. But grapple, throwing each other, etc., all lost. The Neural helmets from back then locked the head so it couldn't turn. Newer helmets, smaller and such, were quickly learned to cause insanity and what's very similar to mad cow disease. So the amount of control was reduced, and before long no one knew how to make it work like before again.

This deterioration is also the reason why most battlemechs rarely had things like radar. Unlike past Mechwarrior video/computer games, in the lore while most of the Clan units had radar, the Inner Sphere had very few mechs that supported this. For example the Centurion AL and Trebuchet have full area radars with active and passive settings. Most battlemechs? They do not and rely on the support given by ground forces. They instead have what MWO typically has. Forward sensors. And they can't communicate targeting data between mechs without C3 Slave and Master computer systems. These are just 'given' to the players in MWO.

So what happened? After the First Succession Wars, General Kerensky in disgust with the monarchs fighting over the role of whatever the supreme monarch would have been called, gathered the entire Star League Defense Force; the army of thousands of planets, most of the scientists, most of the technicians, basically everyone and everything they could, sabotaged a bunch of factories or destroyed them, and left.

Following it came the Second Succession Wars, then the Third. Many of the factories are destroyed. For example, from the Kintaro's page on Sarna: "Unfortunately, the Succession Wars saw the last known Narc factory destroyed in 2792, and the advances made during the Star League era became lostech." The technology became lost; gone, no more records and no more people that had any idea how to make it.

At this age, only about 5% of the total battlemechs currently available would have double heatsinks, less than 2% with endo steel, about 10% with XL engines. The Atlas K would be 22 million cbills, but in comparison to the inferior Atlas D-DC, that Atlas K would be amazing. Not to mention rear firing medium pulse lasers.

I dug this up. It's the history of technological decline. It's a little general, but it covers the job.

Spoiler

History of the technological decline

As a concept, LosTech is often used to describe the loss of technological knowledge over the course of war.
Bombing back into the stone age

In the early Succession Wars, all parties deliberately sought to destroy the enemy infrastructure. Amidst the overall ruthless mayhem that obliterated entire worlds, factories, shipyards and star-ships were prime targets. Humanity as a whole literally bombed itself back into a proverbial 'stone age,' and the Successor Lords realized too late that the damage was beyond repair. On many worlds, the developmental level had fallen back to the level of 20th-21st century science and technology, or even to primitive tribal communities without space flight, subsisting on farming and manual labor with medieval technology levels.
Preserving Lostech

When it became apparent that the ability to build and maintain essential technologies was fading away quickly, irreplaceable civilian assets became regarded as non-combatants through an informal agreement. ComStar was accepted as a neutral caretaker of the interstellar communication network, and then gradually of advanced technology in general. As lostech items, even those of strategic value, were generally kept out of the fighting, combat became more and more ritualized in the fashion of medieval battles or even duels over the course of the Succession Wars. In order to prevent further damage to urban or industrial areas, battles were arranged in outlying regions. Defeated opponents were allowed to withdraw, and captured MechWarriors were ransomed. This development went hand in hand with the establishment of neo-feudal societies, also reminiscent of the middle ages.
Still, the wars raged on. Although infrastructure was not a designated target anymore, collateral damage still occurred and by the early 31st century, many vital technologies were LosTech. Complex systems such as BattleMechs, JumpShips or Hyperpulse Generators became lostech as a whole as most of their individual components such as Fusion Engines or Kearny-Fuchida Drives became increasingly unavailable, difficult to maintain and near impossible to produce. Many colonies were doomed because declining shipping deprived them of their food and supplies imports, others because vital life support technology such as water and air purification systems failed or were destroyed, rendering whole worlds uninhabitable.
Holy Shroud

An aggravating element was ComStar, who evolved into a mystical, pseudo-religious order. They pursued a secret agenda and actively sought to quell technological rediscoveries and advancements in the Successor States, because they felt they alone should have control over advanced technologies for their ultimate goal to guide mankind to the light. In this they went so far as to wage a clandestine war against all other factions' technology, culminating in Operation Holy Shroud, a series of murders and sabotage aimed at the brightest scientists and facilities outside of the order. There were numerous similar operations, including the Tripitz Affair and Operation Holy Shroud II, but ComStar was careful never to reveal their hand in any of these.
Recovery

All major factions realized the importance of rediscovering lost scientific knowledge, and several research facilities were established in an effort to recover some of the lost technologies.
The NAIS

On Halstead Station, Hanse Davion's troops managed to retrieve many books from the library of an ancient, forgotten Star League university in 3013. The so-called Halstead Collection of books prompted Prince Davion to allocate considerable funds to the creation of the New Avalon Institute of Science (NAIS). With the headstart in knowledge from the Halstead Collection, the NAIS became the premier scientific institute outside of ComStar, covering a wide field of sciences.
The Helm Memory Core

The recovery process was helped along significantly following the recovery of a Star League library core on the planet Helm by the Gray Death Legion in 3028 and its subsequent dissemination throughout the Inner Sphere. Aware of deliberate attempts to destroy the memory core and suspicious of ComStar's role, Grayson Carlyle deliberately handed out free copies to independent traders in an attempt to spread the invaluable knowledge without involving ComStar.
For the first time in centuries, technology was on the rise again, and an upswing made itself felt throughout the Inner Sphere. However, with the gradual rediscovery of lost technology, its sacrosanct status eroded away. Military commanders were increasingly prepared to accept crippling losses to their 'Mech and armor units, knowing that once again, they could be replaced.

For the rest...

This post from "They're here" should cover it loosely with lots of video. Watch the two "History of Battletech" videos followed by Voice of Kerensky (note voice of Kerensky is not heard by anyone in the Inner Sphere until after 3140, nearly 100 years into the future beyond the time period of MWO), and finally "Operation Revival" the last video.
Otherwise look up Operation Exodus for a much more detailed version.

Spoiler

Koniving, on 17 June 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

(Not necessarily a guide but more of a 'hype' and a 'history leading to this point'. If you wanted to know about what all this stuff about Clans is about, look here.)

Screenshots by Lordred. Check out the perfect screenshot thread here.


"Oh god they're following me! This is Lieutenant Ashe! Wing Gamma 39'er *Static* Reporting! Taken heavy damage! Requesting immediate *Static.*"
"We are barely receiving you. This is Outpost Riveria, what is your situation?"
"Oh thank god! We were ambushed! We didn't have a chance! I'm sure they're tracking me! Sh--!"
"Pilot!"
"I couldn't see (Incoherent rambling and static) came out of nowhere!"
"P-pilot!"
"They slaughtered everyone!"
"Pilot! Who came out of nowhere?"
"I-I don't know! I know they're following me! Send everything you have now!"
(I know it's from Freespace, but it fits perfectly.)
---------

The history leading up to the upcoming months for those who want to know the story; all presented in video form. (Spoiler was used because it prevents things from loading all at once. History videos provided in this spoiler.)




(This video is many years into the future.)


Words of Kerensky, former General of the Star League Defense Force, father of what would become the Clans; spoken long ago and won't reach us for hundreds of years. Voices his intentions, lost upon his children who invade the Inner Sphere.


"I fear my forces would do incalculable, possibly irreparable harm to our society."
If you liked that video, please give it a like on its youtube page, and show your appreciation at George Leaudoux's page.

The introduction of the Clans, from their own mouths. (Clan introduction videos within this spoiler.)

"Here, with the Strana Mechty wolf, we see what may be the epitome of a warrior, cunning matched with instinct and stealth, joined with a final, terrifying attack. For this mighty creature, I name you. You are Clan Wolf."
-Nicholas Kerensky, 2810


Transcript:




They want the Earth! O_O!

Sorry; only thing I can find on ghost bear.


-From the Oath of Acceptance, Clan Ghost Bear

Found no vids on Clan Smoke Jaguar; sorry guys! Though what I found was Clan Smoke Jaguar had hard times throughout the entire ordeal. See for yourself.

This video is by Wauweli and the original post can be found here. This video is 100% fan-made and recorded during the test server runs we've had.

"The tragedy of my life is that I will be remembered as a Butcherer of Innocence. I cannot argue over their condemnation or with the verdict of history."
(If you liked this video, give it a like on its youtube page and on Wauweli's page.)

Edited by Koniving, 21 June 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[cock a doodle do]

Bloody fantastic . . . thank you!

[Redshift2k5]

You can un-remember technology.

The Romans had concrete 2000 years ago, and it's recipe was lost for centuries until it was recreated. We still don't know exactly how Demascus steel was made.

You might think that in an age of computers you can't lose information, but in BT (and some other sci fi settings like Warhammer 40k) it's a common trope of once-prosperous societies falling into ruin. Wars in the Inner sphere specifically targetted mech factories and other resources, and then hundreds of years more would pass.

Information was never lost forever, two sources did retain an un-broken chain in contrast to the dirty peasants of the inner sphere... but the two main sources of continual tradition, Comstar and the Clans, weren't sharing their tech with everyone else.

[Mahws]

Also worth pointing out that a great deal of humanities engineers and scientists who worked for the military left with the clans in the exodus after the Amaris Coupe, taking their research and knowledge with them. So even without the whole 'bombing themselves back into the stone age' thing that happened after that there was a sudden loss of the best and brightest when it came to manufacturing military hardware.

The other contributor is Comstar, who've been deliberately sabotaging research and improvements to industrial development as well as promoting war and instability for generations in order to hold onto their political power.

If you'd like a brief intro to the lore there's one I wrote up way back when in my signature.

Edited by Mahws, 20 June 2014 - 02:09 AM.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

As a note here, there are many 'old undiscovered' hidden cache's of Tech and Mech's that the Original Star League had. These range from secrete supply bases to entire complexes still full of whatever was in them before the "Exodus'.

They were built by the original Star League engineers and purposely camouflaged and hidden, in most cases even the Planets population or local inhabitants didn't know they were there. These secret 'Lost' locations stretch from the center of the Inner Sphere all the way to the outer boundary of settlements and some beyond.

- Anything found within these complexes is considered to be 'Lost Tech' and highly prised, some tech being 300yrs old but still new and advanced for what is currently used.
- Stumbling upon or discovering one of these locations has lead to many improvements in the current Tech, reverse engineering or actually getting the design plans has changed quite a few of the Great Houses militaries, and lead to additional conflicts.

The greatest Tech discovery was with the 'Helm Memory Core', a complete copy of all the advanced Tech that the original Star League had. And took a few years to be 'distributed' throughout the entire IS. Conveniently, just a few years before the Clans started their invasion.
See here: http://www.sarna.net...elm_Memory_Core
And here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lostech

The term Lostech in the BattleTech universe generally refers to applied technological advances and knowledge that existed during the Star League era, but which were lost in the Succession Wars that followed.

Reference:
The SLDF had thousands of military bases and supply depots spread throughout known space; each inhabited world was home to at least one of these installations. Of special importance were those installations built along three defensive rings designed to protect Terra. The first, known as the Home Circle, was built along the border of the Terran Hegemony. The second was built 250 light years from Terran, while the third was built 500 light years from Terran, along the border between the Inner Sphere and the Periphery. Bases along the third ring were the largest and best defended, and more evenly distributed, and most major bases along the defensive rings were home to divisions or major fleets.
Besides the well-known installations, hundreds, potentially thousands, of secret bases were also constructed. SLDF engineers went to great lengths to construct these hidden bases: leveling mountains, draining lakes, building islands in the middle of oceans, and camouflaging their work when construction was complete. Such was their skill that many of these installations have yet to be found, and while most were emptied prior to Operation Exodus some still contain examples of lostech.

Type of structures:
Fort
The most common type of military installations, Forts were designed to support the soldiers and families of a single regiment. Complete with housing, communication facilities, repair bays and a spaceport, the amount and type of defensive fortifications would depend upon the hostility of its host world.
Castle
Reserved for important or rebellious worlds, Castles were built into mountainsides or beneath meters of concrete and included multiple secret tunnels.
Castle Brian
The most heavily defended of military installations, Castles Brian were first built along the Terran Hegemony's borders with its neighboring realms. Able to hold two brigades, the only sure way to eliminate one quickly was through heavy nuclear or orbital bombardment.
Outpost Castle
Very similar to Castles Brian, Outpost Castles were built after the Reunification War to keep rebellious Periphery worlds in check.
Port Castle
Another variation of the Castles Brian, Port Castles included a spaceport built into the facility, allowing for relief during sieges. Because the spaceport presented a vulnerable spot in its defenses, few Port Castles were built.
Mini-Castle
A smaller version of the Castle Brian, only able to hold a single regiment. Some Castles Brian included several Mini-Castles to act as a first line of defense.
Supply Depot
The size and nature of a Supply Depot depended greatly upon the world it was built. On hostile worlds, most depots were built in secret or as part of a Fort or Castle.
Naval Base
Over 500 Naval Bases serviced the SLDF, each orbital facility including shipyards, moorings, and housing. Protection was provided for by an ASF wing and two destroyers, although during the final decades that force increased to include a cruiser.

Note: Ref.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Castle_Brian

9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 20 June 2014 - 02:41 AM.

[dragnier1]

I thought someone lost something

Just to correct the OP a little, it's possible to lose tech/info/techniques/skills. An example would be a special family recipe. If the parents never bothered teaching the recipe to their kids/grandkids, the recipe can be lost.

[Coventry Metal Works]

Greetings,

Since the discovery and distribution of the Helm Memory Core in 3028 Coventry Metal Works research and development teams as well as numerous partners have been hard at work to bring this rediscovered technology to you, the mechwarrior. We currently have several products available based on this technology including:

Foundation Ultralight Endo Steel structure components, Lexington Limited High-Grade Ferro-Fiberous armor, Lexington Limited Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment (CASE), several targeting and tracking systems with integrated electronic countermeasures and active probe suites, and the popular Coventry T4H Streak SRM-2.

Please feel free to contact your local CMW distributor for more information on our products.

- Coventry Metal Works Public Affairs Department

[PieRat]

Surely you can un-remember... Ever heard of the Library at Alexandria??? Not saying we did, but wow would it have been nice to know exactly what ancient tech knowledge could have been stored away in there...

[wanderer]

Redshift2k5, on 20 June 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

Information was never lost forever, two sources did retain an un-broken chain in contrast to the dirty peasants of the inner sphere... but the two main sources of continual tradition, Comstar and the Clans, weren't sharing their tech with everyone else.

ComStar also specifically was sabotaging tech recovery by covert means until the Clan era- though the Helm Core recovery basically scuttled that in most cases (another example would be the "Death Commando" raid on the NAIS that was actually a ComStar team in disguise during the 4th Succession War). 3039 is generally thought of as the breaking point where military tech began to swing back towards Star-League standards, though non-military technology remained far behind, doubly so with the Clans forcing even more prioritization into military development vs. quality-of-life (medicine, environmental, terraforming etc.) tech. The second big step would be the New Dallas core being recovered, which provided a lot of the data on what LED to Star League era technology- the fundamentals of more primitive versions of SL-era tech that had also been lost with the more advanced data, leading to easier reconstruction of prior technology.

The Helm core was like finding a bunch of college-grade textbooks when you had sixth-grade knowhow, New Dallas was like finding 7-12th grade ones that made it the "high school" courses that got you to college in the first place, meaning that technology became far more difficult to retrograde even with the mass-destruction that was the 3070's. There were more links in the chain of knowledge being widely preserved and spread, and it would have been darn near impossible to get rid of the Clans anyway.

At that point, the Word Of Blake basically formented chaos (courtesy of the Republic and Devlin Stone) outside their little enclave and hid, letting their technological advances build up and the Inner Sphere/Clan ones bog down before returning in the mid-3100's with the defrosting of Devlin Stone to once again resume control of a paranoid, fearful Terran Republic.

[Ertur]

wanderer, on 21 June 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

ComStar also specifically was sabotaging tech recovery by covert means until the Clan era- though the Helm Core recovery basically scuttled that in most cases (another example would be the "Death Commando" raid on the NAIS that was actually a ComStar team in disguise during the 4th Succession War).

ComStar is evil.
http://www.sarna.net...ion_Holy_Shroud
They actively worked to foster ignorance and war so they could take over. It wasn't just Word of Blake, it was the entire operation.

Fight the power!

[Koniving]

So, as I said... The Comstar is the Illuminati.

[Deathz Jester]

Koniving, on 20 June 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

-snip-

You should really post that somewhere to be stickied