228 replies to this topic

[Master Maniac]

Kassatsu, on 21 June 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

This isn't MW3. It never will be. Even I've accepted that fact.

As for the poptarts requiring aiming: Yes. You point at the red square and left cli-HEY THAT SOUNDS FAMILIAR!

Yeah, and you have to put your sights on the body part you want to hit, you have to compensate for distance, projectile travel time, enemy movement inclination, and in the case of AC's, parabolic drop. And then you have to contend with screen shake from JJ use, and you have to expose yourself to retaliation.

FAIL HARDER.

Lyoto Machida, on 21 June 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Are you guys dying to LRMs more than 10% of the time? If so, you're doing it wrong.

You'll have to do FAR better than that.

[Kassatsu]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Yeah, and you have to put your sights on the body part you want to hit, you have to compensate for distance, projectile travel time, enemy movement inclination, and in the case of AC's, parabolic drop. And then you have to contend with screen shake from JJ use, and you have to expose yourself to retaliation.

FAIL HARDER.

Compensate for the shake? You mean... By letting go of the space bar BEFORE left clicking? Wow that's a hard skill.

You expose yourself to retaliation for about two seconds, if that long.

Projectile travel time is often negated by the fact that you're aiming at enemies running in a straight line under 500 meters from you.

Projectile drop? See above.

The part you want to hit? Sure, if by "part" you mean "the center torso".

I'm thinking of two words here, they were just recently said in all caps... Bah, they escape me.

[Master Maniac]

Lyoto Machida, on 21 June 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

It's true though...if you're dying to LRMs frequently, you're a bad player. Or you have some sort of physical or mental disability that precludes you from defending against LRMs.

Thank you for proving my point, apologist.

Kassatsu, on 21 June 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

Compensate for the shake? You mean... By letting go of the space bar BEFORE left clicking? Wow that's a hard skill.

You expose yourself to retaliation for about two seconds, if that long.

Projectile travel time is often negated by the fact that you're aiming at enemies running in a straight line under 500 meters from you.

Projectile drop? See above.

The part you want to hit? Sure, if by "part" you mean "the center torso".

I'm thinking of two words here, they were just recently said in all caps... Bah, they escape me.

Versus, you know, sitting cozy, not moving, immune to enemy detection and retaliation while click click clicking away with homing missiles? I mean, are you being serious right now?

[Kassatsu]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

Versus, you know, sitting cozy, not moving, immune to enemy detection and retaliation while click click clicking away with homing missiles? I mean, are you being serious right now?

Good question, did you seriously just try to defend holding the space bar, letting go of the space bar and then left clicking?

My answer is the same as yours.

[Master Maniac]

Kassatsu, on 21 June 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Good question, did you seriously just try to defend holding the space bar, letting go of the space bar and then left clicking?

My answer is the same as yours.

Which involves exposure to enemy fire, and requiring actual aiming? Yes. Good bye! Thanks for playing!

I'm not surprised you kids resort to ye olde standby: Bee Ess personal insults. Sucks to lose an argument, I know. Perhaps you should endeavor to lose more gracefully.

Edited by Master Maniac, 21 June 2014 - 06:44 PM.

[bossclan]

Funny that a weapon system that gives a incoming warning and is negated by ECM and cover causes so much fuss.
I see people that know how to avoid lrms having no trouble at all.
If only ACs and PPCs gave a warning before they hit.
I don't always run LRMs but when i do i target the mechs that don't take cover first.

[Throbbinwood]

Lyoto Machida, on 21 June 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Are you guys dying to LRMs more than 10% of the time? If so, you're doing it wrong.

QTF

[ImperialKnight]

Clan LRMs feel more annoying because of the stream mechanic they implemented to TRY to make them more susceptible to AMS. Unfortunately, most people don't pack AMS.

So instead of being rocked ONCE every 2-3 seconds. You are constantly being rocked by the stream of LRMs. (i.e. remember how annoying the 6xLRM5 Cat was? same idea)

It's possible to out attrition LRM boats by using cover but again unfortunately most people have a festish for standing out in the open and getting hammered by LRMs and also the fact that some maps have absolute BS cover like Alpine and Caustic

[Master Maniac]

Kassatsu, on 21 June 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

I almost had a reply to your last post there maniac. But, a few posts above me pretty much hits the nail on the head, so, in your words. Good bye, kid! Thanks for playing!

Oh, it *surrre* does. It's cute, watching munchkins yell "TROLL" and running away. It's today's catch-all defense, a way for those who have lost a dispute to duck away whilst hoping to have the last word. You people are what is wrong with this community, and I thank you for your contribution.

Lyoto Machida, on 21 June 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

How many LRMs did you see in the tourney compared to direct fire weapons?

I saw a HECK of a lot of indirect artillery and airstrikes, actually. Are you really trying to say that people don't use LRMs? I mean, ignoring the rest of this discussion, are you REALLY claiming that?

knightsljx, on 21 June 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

Clan LRMs feel more annoying because of the stream mechanic they implemented to TRY to make them more susceptible to AMS. Unfortunately, most people don't pack AMS.

So instead of being rocked ONCE every 2-3 seconds. You are constantly being rocked by the stream of LRMs. (i.e. remember how annoying the 6xLRM5 Cat was? same idea)

It's possible to out attrition LRM boats by using cover but again unfortunately most people have a festish for standing out in the open and getting hammered by LRMs and also the fact that some maps have absolute BS cover like Alpine and Caustic

You're trying to be more reasonable than the others, and I truly appreciate that. That being said, it's not about standing in the open, it's about getting plastered INSTANTLY the moment you step out of cover if you're in anything without ECM. And that's a problem, unless of course this game is to be retitled "Turret Warrior Online."

Edited by Master Maniac, 21 June 2014 - 06:53 PM.

[Kilo 40]

every time I fire a salvo of LRMs and see 6+ AMS firing through the ground/side of a mountain/etc.. I think of threads like this.

[Kassatsu]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Oh, it *surrre* does. It's cute, watching munchkins yell "TROLL" and running away. It's today's catch-all defense, a way for those who have lost a dispute to duck away whilst hoping to have the last word. You people are what is wrong with this community, and I think you for your contribution.

It's even cuter watching the trolls thinking they've won an argument the instant they're called out on it. Or maybe you really ARE so bad (or in *that* part of the elo ladder) that LRMs are actually an issue.

Sure, my arguments were the tired old "Use cover noob" excuses, but honestly... Do you really need MORE hard counters to LRMs beyond: ECM, line of sight, hillsides/rocks/tunnels/ceilings/buildings - collectively called "hard cover", minimum range, lock-on time, flight time, AMS (which is probably the ONE thing in this game that works like it's supposed to in that it doesn't completely cancel out LRMs entirely)... All of which a poptart can easily do? All of which ANY mech except a slow assault (even they can make use of AMS and/or ECM if they're a D-DC or have a teammate nearby with one) caught in the middle of alpine peaks can make use of? Feel free to ignore everything and ONLY mention how I single out poptarts. It's okay, I won't even blame you for being desperate to come up with a valid argument at this point.

LRMs take far more coordination to use than just about any other build in the game. They literally require a teammate to expose themselves to enemy fire if you don't get your own locks. Let's not forget the dozens of counters to them, including but not limited to shooting the one enemy that has line of sight on you. Narc is another story, but honestly that's in a pretty good spot... Not according to the LRMs are OP crowd of course, but how many people even take one? Or maybe that's it... Tell me, where did the narc land, was it in an embarassing, uncomfortable place, and did the mean old LRMs touch you inappropriately afterwards?

Should I even mention that nearly any non-LRM build can at least deal damage at brawling range, while if an LRM boat gets caught up close they can barely even fight back, if at all?

But ignoring that, I've seen the light! LRMs are OP! They don't even need direct line of sight! Unless you're using Artemis and want the bonus! Or using your own tag!

Nice try, thanks for playing, kid, etc. etc., insert whatever variation of your "I won the argument" statements you'll come up with next here. I'm actually done at this point - I honestly won't even read whatever tired reply you come up with next because both sides have stated their cases MANY times. I don't even USE LRMs myself, more often than not I run short-mid range direct fire builds and I agree with people trying to defend them, even when I solo drop in pugs and my team gets completely wrecked by 3+ LRM boats, with or without a reasonably intelligent spotter. If that doesn't speak to you, nothing will.

EDIT:

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

You directly implied that the tourney was ruled by direct-fire weapons, when in fact the tourney was "ruled" by indirect-fire artillery and airstrikes. And LRMs were just as prevalent in the tourney as always. Hence, I refute your assertion as completely off-base and incorrect.

For what, two matches before the teams using them switched back to poptarts?

Edited by Kassatsu, 21 June 2014 - 07:14 PM.

[Master Maniac]

Kilo 40, on 21 June 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

every time I fire a salvo of LRMs and see 6+ AMS firing through the ground/side of a mountain/etc.. I think of threads like this.

AMS exists. It effectively reduces the damage of an incoming LRM strike. We get it. We all know this.

It does not eliminate the damage from 4 LRM 15s fired from a single mech. LRMs are still skill-free. They still require minimal engagement from a player. They still operate without requiring the user to expose themselves to danger.

So, yeah. There's AMS.

Quote

They literally require a teammate to expose themselves to enemy fire if you don't get your own locks.

LMAO, they require other players to be LOOKING AT enemy mechs, which is going to happen NO MATTER WHAT in the course of natural combat. You're going to be getting locks no matter what. That's not a valid point at all.

[SJ Osiris]

@Wolfways

MechWarrior Living Legends is miles ahead of this game. Yes, it is also now dead one reason being "it's just a mod". It didn't help that Crysis and later on Crysis wars was needed to play it as well. Since it was shut down awhile back, well an agreement by the modders and pgi, the rather sizeable population considering the niche it is instantly dried up.

It was a continuously growing project and a mechlab was to be made for it. Also, it had people willing to set up planetary leagues where people could actually get on private servers and have structured skirmishes. It was a pretty significant accomplishment for just some modders.

MWLL was my first mech game and it was of exceptional quality. MechWarrior Online was interesting when I first played it in the initial closed beta before buying in was allowed. It has been all downhill from there. I really found it sad that lrms have been a problem on and off for quite some time now. I suppose a solution will never be had. Though I'll admit I haven't played since third person view was added.

I went back and played MW4 Mercs and found it better than this as well. I know I'm way off tanget but that's all I have to say about that.

Edited by SJ Osiris, 21 June 2014 - 07:22 PM.

[Master Maniac]

Quote

Should I even mention that nearly any non-LRM build can at least deal damage at brawling range, while if an LRM boat gets caught up close they can barely even fight back, if at all?

Not an issue with most clan mechs, which can cram LRMs together with solid brawling weapons with minimal effort (which they should).

My problem, again, is not with LRMs as a concept. My issue is with their implementation. I have no issue with LRMs being powerful weapons. I have no problem with clans being able to mix brawling with range-fighting. I say simply that in their current state, they suck, and they suck hard.

[Kilo 40]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

AMS exists. It effectively reduces the damage of an incoming LRM strike. We get it. We all know this.

as I said "through the ground/side of a mountain/etc..."

Quote

It does not eliminate the damage from 4 LRM 15s fired from a single mech.

enough AMS does.

[Master Maniac]

SJ Osiris, on 21 June 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

MechWarrior Living Legends is miles ahead of this game. Yes, it is also now dead one reason being "it's just a mod". It didn't help that Crysis and later on Crysis wars was needed to play it as well. Since it was shut down awhile back, well an agreement by the modders and pgi, the rather sizeable population considering the niche it is instantly dried up.

It was a continuously growing project and a mechlab was to be made for it. Also, it had people willing to set up planetary leagues where people could actually get on private servers and have structured skirmishes. It was a pretty significant accomplishment for just some modders.

MWLL was my first mech game and it was of exceptional quality. MechWarrior Online was interesting when I first played it in the initial closed beta before buying in was allowed. It has been all downhill from there. I really found it sad that lrms have been a problem on and off for quite some time now. I suppose a solution will never be had. Though I'll admit I haven't played since third person view was added.

I went back and played MW4 Mercs and found it better than this as well. I know I'm way off tanget but that's all I have to say about that.

No, you're not off-tangent at all. The problem is that the MWO devs refuse to address serious gameplay problems, either because they're not skilled enough to do so, or because they personally like the LRM meta (I'm pointing right at Paul Inouye here). Previous MW games had working LRMs that required skill, patience, and precision to use effectively. It boggles the mind that this eludes PGI so utterly.

Kilo 40, on 21 June 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

as I said "through the ground/side of a mountain/etc..."



enough AMS does.

Yeah, and then it rapidly runs out of ammunition, unless of course you're going to dedicate 5 tons to your anti-missile, in which case you DESERVE it. But in all seriousness, NO, AMS does NOT completely negate LRM swarms, not even in high concentrations among multiple mechs. High concentrations CAN take out smaller clusters, but that's hardly a problem as most LRM-users pack them on by the truckload.

Quote

For what, two matches before the teams using them switched back to poptarts?

Oh, God. I can't...I can't resist. I'm trying to...so hard...but I...just....can't....

WHAT YOU CAN'T USE COVER NOOB LEARN TO PLAY, KID RRRAAAGGGGGHHHHH IF YOU'RE IN COVER GAUSS/PPC/LASERS CAN'T HIT YOU AT ALL IT'S A HARD COUNTER SUCH BS MY SHOTS SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO THRRRROUUUUGGGGH AND CORE YOU INSTANTLY COVER SO OP

Edited by Master Maniac, 21 June 2014 - 07:28 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

AMS exists. It effectively reduces the damage of an incoming LRM strike. We get it. We all know this.

It does not eliminate the damage from 4 LRM 15s fired from a single mech. LRMs are still skill-free. They still require minimal engagement from a player. They still operate without requiring the user to expose themselves to danger.

So, yeah. There's AMS.



LMAO, they require other players to be LOOKING AT enemy mechs, which is going to happen NO MATTER WHAT in the course of natural combat. You're going to be getting locks no matter what. That's not a valid point at all.

That's why you rush them.

And don't go saying shooting things with direct fire weapons takes "skill" either. MWO has some of the most simple shooting mechanics of any modern shooter.

Edited by Mcgral18, 21 June 2014 - 07:28 PM.

[Kilo 40]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

not even in high concentrations among multiple mechs.

lie or complete ignorance

[Kilo 40]

Master Maniac, on 21 June 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

a slow-moving projectile that forces a shooter to constantly be aware of their target's movement and distance, even up close. Also, the origin of fired projectiles depends on the position of the weapon, meaning that you have to be aware of your mech's geometry, as well as terrain composition, before you shoot, otherwise you'll be shooting nothing but ground.

you just described LRMs to the T.

Edited by Kilo 40, 21 June 2014 - 07:42 PM.

[Dakshinamurthy]

Don't let the fact that timber wolves are op make you think lrms are op. They might be, but how can we tell when there's 3 timber wolves every game? But let nobody convince you AMS is good, it's awful. I just tried out the 3 ams kittyhawk and AMS is -clearly- bugged or something. For some reason it seems more effective covering allies than the mech that using them. 3 ams couldn't stop one volley or lrms, that's an awful trade off for the lbs lost. The AMS should be more effective for the mech using them due to the perfect angle of fire on the incoming missiles, for some reason they work better supporting allies? logic?