271 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

Cavendish, on 22 June 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

Heh no, "realistic" would be more of a 3/3/3/3. You do not send in a heavy tank division without scouting and support.

3/4/3/2 would be more realistic than 3/3/3/3...

but no.

There were scout lances, and assault lances, and all sorts of things in lore, but there was never a time all companies were 3 lights, 3 mediums, 3 heavies and 3 assaults.

Heck even just saying there have to be 4 mediums in every drop makes more sense, or even something as simple as if you drop in a pug match with a group formed then at least 1 person must be in a medium.

Edit for Clarification: I am not endorsing they do any of these things, but it would be better than 3/3/3/3 which I think they should reverse as soon as possible.

Edited by Belorion, 22 June 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[Jolly Llama]

These are pick up games, hence the name PUG. First come, first serve in a pick up game. If you don't like playing against four man groups, then set up a separate lobby for four man groups. Everybody brings what they want, trash ELO.

[Deathlike]

Here's a ninja update hint.

Dropped with Karl Berg briefly in one match. I should've gotten screenshots of it, but basically... this will be on the PTS server coming soon™. Since the "expected release date" is July 1, I suspect sometime this week we will get a glimpse of that AND some of the other changes to be made (Clan LRM damage <180m, falling damage, JJ heat and whatnot).

This is unofficial, since I couldn't get a specific date from Karl, but this is going to actually happen soon™.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Link

Quote

@russ_bullock:
2014-06-21 01:49:53 UTC
Expect more information on Monday regarding a Public test for MM, looking like Tuesday Public Test. More Monday - Have a great weekend

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 June 2014 - 02:33 AM, said:

the reason for doubting it is nonsense and the things I have heard that are doubts have less to do with what the MM is actually supposed to do. you are forgetting that the 3's was in play for a short time and I did have a chance to play with it in place. It worked well and for the first time I had a match that ran to zero time while my team was actually trying to fight rather than hid then pop out.

the people who doubt it have nothing, while the people who praise it do so for that it actually does. Let me repeat myself. The MM is supposed to balance the teams by class. meaning 3 lights, 3 meds, 3 heavies, and 3 assaults. Also group 1 team per side, i consider that secondary.

How about without spanning long paragraphs of nothing explain the pros and cons of the MM with what you know instead of what you speculate.

Let me use your words. the reason i have to praise it= When I was actually part of the new MM before it was taken down was that it actually balanced the teams and the 1 match i got to be in was the best match i ever had. I will say that the wait times were about 30 secs for me, but it was nothing to be bothered over.

the cons=I didn't have any besides the wait times I do not see how this negatively impacts the game.

the third factor is mech variation= you can not control this, players will bring what they feel they wish to bring; However the MM will try to match tonnage, although it is not 100%

Not to mention people keep adding factors that are out of the MM's control and then using what it can not do as a reason to doubt it.

how about you stop personally attacking the "whiners' in this thread and offer something to the conversation or take your attempts to derail the thread and troll elsewhere? If you don't like the ideas and feedback given then suggest your own instead of trying to dismiss everyone else's ideas. YOU are the only one contributing nothing to the conversation. Help us come up with ideas that could improve the system instead of flailing about calling everyine you don't like or agree with a "whiner"

I've asked several times that you and others stay on topic. That's a polite way of saying "Either add something to the conversation or move along before I start hitting the report button"

[Sandpit]

geodeath, on 22 June 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

If you think that tonnage makes things even, then that says a lot about how you play. *** for tat drop decks are a losing bet. Ask any 12 man commander. You always set up to inflict the most amount of damage possible in the shortest time, while matching your mechs to to your overall plan of attack. Trying to match mechs against an opposing team just insures that you fight their fight and you lose. That is the true crux of 3/3/3/3, low skill plays want tonnage balance so that they can fight their fight and beat people who know how to use masses of lighter mechs. The assaults have really nothing to do the the whine that brought on this dumb idea.

well here's the other thing.The only real variety that the rule of 3 will provide is variety in weight classes. It's not going to make the Locust a more desirable mech. It's not going to change the mechs you normally see fielded for that weight class, it's just going to change how many of a particular weight class.

Instead of doing that the system should be set up to encourage use of the "subpar" mechs and help get a little more real variety out on the field.

Cavendish, on 22 June 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

Heh no, "realistic" would be more of a 3/3/3/3. You do not send in a heavy tank division without scouting and support.

you also don't compose your forces to assault a heavily fortified position such as a planet capitol by ensuring half your forces are lights and mediums. Again, this is just another reason I don't feel the rule of 3 is a good system nor is it going to improve much, if anything, in the way of gameplay

geodeath, on 22 June 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

These are pick up games, hence the name PUG. First come, first serve in a pick up game. If you don't like playing against four man groups, then set up a separate lobby for four man groups. Everybody brings what they want, trash ELO.

that's the other thing. PUGs have the same ability to pay for private matches and take whatever they want just as premades do.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sandpit, on 22 June 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

how about you stop personally attacking the "whiners' in this thread and offer something to the conversation or take your attempts to derail the thread and troll elsewhere? If you don't like the ideas and feedback given then suggest your own instead of trying to dismiss everyone else's ideas. YOU are the only one contributing nothing to the conversation. Help us come up with ideas that could improve the system instead of flailing about calling everyine you don't like or agree with a "whiner"

I've asked several times that you and others stay on topic. That's a polite way of saying "Either add something to the conversation or move along before I start hitting the report button"

I am not attacking anyone. you can go ahead and hit the report button all you like buddy.

I did none of those you accused me of my good sir, and that quote of mine you used shows no attack. Not only that it does offer to the conversation, of how most of the ideas here would not work; Or stop bashing the New MM for no good reason or factors that are out of the MM control. How can someone who never even seen the New MM in play make a comment and say that it does not work? how can you do that?

What adjustment does the New MM need? It provided balance to both teams 3x4 on each side? that is the very definition of something being balanced. Equal size, proportion, limit? any one of these it does not matter because it is equal in terms of class. What you cannot limit or place a barrier on is what people will use. Just because i use a T-wolf does not mean someone else will not bring a stalker or a hunchback. I have also seen in my matches that mechs are still diverse. I see hunchies,awesome's,Jenner's,clan mechs, even kintaros(This was on the PTS, keep in mind the clan mechs were still the prevalaint force but that did not mean people didn't use IS mechs). All these different mechs are variables in the MM. So even though the MM will try to match class to class and weight to weight, it can not predict what someone will bring. that is the beauty of it, as long as mech variation or type remains X you can have all the pieces to the equation and still end up with a different result.

I do not dismiss anyone's idea, i just disprove.

one last thing, how can you improve something no one has really had the chance to test out? How can we not have the MM and yet people do not like it? not to mention it was only on for a short time on the PTS so i doubt a lot of people who dislike it haven't even had the chance to give it a go? the Idea I heard of matches getting boring is negated by the fact of mech variation, or randomness, probability. We do not know what people will bring unless their your buddy or PL.

It is like i said, this thread would be better served if the new MM was actually in place. I do not know why you would make this when it is not even in place. How can someone give feedback if they never used it? No one here gave their experience of the 3's system. I did and that is where my viewpoint comes from. How can you adjust something that is not even for everyone to use? Also everyone that is giving feedback here, is it from experience using the MM or just because they do not like the idea.

Keep in mind the MM does exactly what it is supposed to do and that is make sure each team has 3x4's. mechs are going to be matched accordingly but nothing is 100%. How can anybody help improve a system that can not be tested as of now???? and when it was in test got positive reviews. Except the players who already had a negative disposition to it in the first place.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 June 2014 - 01:03 AM.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 June 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

I am not attacking anyone. you can go ahead and hit the report button all you like buddy.

thank you for editing the personal attacks out of your posts. Hopefully now we can keep it on-topic and off the personal level.

[Roland]

The changes which are supposedly coming tomorrow are more than I really expected to ever see. I'm somewhat speechless.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 June 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

Keep in mind the MM does exactly what it is supposed to do and that is make sure each team has 3x4's. mechs are going to be matched accordingly but nothing is 100%. How can anybody help improve a system that can not be tested as of now???? and when it was in test got positive reviews. Except the players who already had a negative disposition to it in the first place.

the same way professional sporting leagues discuss and revamp new rules before they are implemented. Given the information we have on the rule of 3 we can ascertain a lot of what it will and will not as well as what it can and cannot do.

Now again, unless you feel the rule of 3 is an absolutely perfect system, then it always has room for improvement. I understand you don't like some of the ideas being kicked around. I also have asked you, and others, several times what would YOU do to improve the system and make it better for everyone instead of simply saying "i don't like those ideas"

*P.S. "attacking people by referring to their feedback as nothing but "whining" IS dismissing their ideas. You can edit your posts after the fact all you want but it's not nearly as slick as you think it is. Again, thank you for editing those out though, I'd like to keep this thread on-topic and off the personal level. This is about MWO's MM system, not personal attacks against other players.

Roland, on 23 June 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

The changes which are supposedly coming tomorrow are more than I really expected to ever see. I'm somewhat speechless.

I'm optimistic but until I see CW in full force I just don't have any "hey, they promised this time and they've been doing much better lately" due to hearing it all before. We shall see though, I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sandpit, on 23 June 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

the same way professional sporting leagues discuss and revamp new rules before they are implemented. Given the information we have on the rule of 3 we can ascertain a lot of what it will and will not as well as what it can and cannot do.

Now again, unless you feel the rule of 3 is an absolutely perfect system, then it always has room for improvement. I understand you don't like some of the ideas being kicked around. I also have asked you, and others, several times what would YOU do to improve the system and make it better for everyone instead of simply saying "i don't like those ideas"

*P.S. "attacking people by referring to their feedback as nothing but "whining" IS dismissing their ideas. You can edit your posts after the fact all you want but it's not nearly as slick as you think it is. Again, thank you for editing those out though, I'd like to keep this thread on-topic and off the personal level. This is about MWO's MM system, not personal attacks against other players.


I'm optimistic but until I see CW in full force I just don't have any "hey, they promised this time and they've been doing much better lately" due to hearing it all before. We shall see though, I'll keep my fingers crossed.

why don't you check everyone then because a lot of people were not giving feedback. Seems you like to single me out. it was more like a bash the current MM thread. A lot of it wasn't even valid reasoning, it was bashing just because. I don't mind you checking me but at least be fair.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 June 2014 - 02:06 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sandpit, on 20 June 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...00#entry3489502

ok so I was told to start a new thread since the official thread was closed.

I'd like to continue the conversation regarding the new MM here since we can no longer post in the official thread.


So what is the status of the new MM as of right now?
What do you feel needs to be done for, about, or to the new MM?

Why does this need 10 pages? The public test for the MM is going to be here soon and we can see for yourselves, that is a good time to start making conclusions after data has been gathered. Not only that another wrench has been thrown into the equations and they are allowing groups 2-10 in the public que. That only adds to the conundrum. Well I will have to wait and see.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 June 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[Artgathan]

If we assume the purpose of 3/3/3/3 is to put more light and medium mechs on the field, there are other approaches that could work aside from forcing the issue. One would be to revisit the relative balance between mech classes, another would be to revisit role warfare, another would be (re)working on game modes to encourage the use of smaller, faster mechs to attain objectives. (for instance, revisiting the time required to capture bases on assault and conquest).

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 June 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

why don't you check everyone then because a lot of people were not giving feedback. Seems you like to single me out. it was more like a bash the current MM thread. A lot of it wasn't even valid reasoning, it was bashing just because. I don't mind you checking me but at least be fair.

I have, I've said several times when I see it. Why don't you stop taking it personally and just drop it and actually give us some of your ideas on how to improve the game instead of arguing with me about asking you to do so? See how this starts? It's NOT personal. I don't know you. I don't know who and what type of person you are. You've never kicked my dog or stolen from me so as far as I know you're not a bad person. Therefore I have nothing personally against you. So again, (for the xx time) why can't you just drop it, stop with this, and help us come up with ideas on how to improve the game????

Artgathan, on 23 June 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

If we assume the purpose of 3/3/3/3 is to put more light and medium mechs on the field, there are other approaches that could work aside from forcing the issue. One would be to revisit the relative balance between mech classes, another would be to revisit role warfare, another would be (re)working on game modes to encourage the use of smaller, faster mechs to attain objectives. (for instance, revisiting the time required to capture bases on assault and conquest).

I like those ideas as well. This game would do nothing but prosper if it stopped making players feel like they're "forced" to do something and gave them incentives to do something. That's why I like good open discussions. It helps get all kinds of ideas going and eventually it gets easier to come up with an idea or ideas that will improve the game for everyone.

[Deathlike]

Roland, on 23 June 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

The changes which are supposedly coming tomorrow are more than I really expected to ever see. I'm somewhat speechless.

Yes. This news is good... but possibly too late in some ways. We'll see.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sandpit, on 23 June 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

I have, I've said several times when I see it. Why don't you stop taking it personally and just drop it and actually give us some of your ideas on how to improve the game instead of arguing with me about asking you to do so? See how this starts? It's NOT personal. I don't know you. I don't know who and what type of person you are. You've never kicked my dog or stolen from me so as far as I know you're not a bad person. Therefore I have nothing personally against you. So again, (for the xx time) why can't you just drop it, stop with this, and help us come up with ideas on how to improve the game????


I like those ideas as well. This game would do nothing but prosper if it stopped making players feel like they're "forced" to do something and gave them incentives to do something. That's why I like good open discussions. It helps get all kinds of ideas going and eventually it gets easier to come up with an idea or ideas that will improve the game for everyone.

fair enough, but I have said until we actually have the base of the conversation, the crux if you will; how can we improve it? Half the people if not less did not even test it when it was on. If they did, they did not state so. How can you fix something when you don't have data? that is the issue. Tommarrow we got the public test and I will attend. I hope you do as well as those who participated in this thread. I will observe the game and i always ask questions while I am in game on players general opinion on the subject in question. Also their is nothing wrong with disputing the claims made here, you asked for feedback and that is exactly what i have been doing.

You are asking for people to give adjustments to something they do not even have their hands on? this makes no sense. Would it not be better to have 10 pages of actual tested data for valid conclusions. To what seems like speculation rather than evidence. what say you? how do you justify?

you want to talk about reporting me but this very thread was closed, He told you to do exacly what i said, Make the conclusions after the fact. once again how do you justify?
[color=#00FFFF]"When the suggested tweaks are implemented, a new feedback thread will be opened at that point". [/color][color=#00FFFF]s[/color] I am surprised this thread was not closed. AS it should have been.

Deathlike, on 23 June 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Yes. This news is good... but possibly too late in some ways. We'll see.

what do you mean? too late for what? this game boomed when the clans arrived. I just want to know what you meant and i meant nothing else.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 June 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Deathlike]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 June 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

what do you mean? too late for what? this game boomed when the clans arrived. I just want to know what you meant and i meant nothing else.

Clans only "boomed" because people are playing with their Clan Mechs... just like those that bought a Phoenix Pack. This will die back down unfortunately. It has happened before, so it's actually likely it will happen again.

Some people have been turned off long ago 3PV, Coolant, Ghost Heat, ECM... whatever. Premades greater than 4 or the max # (8 or 12) were a non-option for a long time. Some people will come back... but plenty of others won't. This is NOT ABOUT ME AND YOU, but reality. I know someone who hasn't played BECAUSE premades greater than 4 was "initially promised" way back and thought to be coming on the original "Launch Module" day. I guess that leave for that person will go away, but it probably won't keep them interested in the game like some of us who stick around and watch things continue to progress at an amazingly slow rate.

[Joseph Mallan]

3⁴ plus up to 10 man teams... should be interesting how well MM will handle this.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Deathlike, on 23 June 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

Clans only "boomed" because people are playing with their Clan Mechs... just like those that bought a Phoenix Pack. This will die back down unfortunately. It has happened before, so it's actually likely it will happen again.

Some people have been turned off long ago 3PV, Coolant, Ghost Heat, ECM... whatever. Premades greater than 4 or the max # (8 or 12) were a non-option for a long time. Some people will come back... but plenty of others won't. This is NOT ABOUT ME AND YOU, but reality. I know someone who hasn't played BECAUSE premades greater than 4 was "initially promised" way back and thought to be coming on the original "Launch Module" day. I guess that leave for that person will go away, but it probably won't keep them interested in the game like some of us who stick around and watch things continue to progress at an amazingly slow rate.

Interesting. Hopefully they come back, I think the game is progressing. You are right, it has been a snails pace but it is getting there.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 June 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

fair enough, but I have said until we actually have the base of the conversation, the crux if you will how can we improve it? Half the people if not less did not even test it when it was on. If they did they did not state so. How can you fix something when you don't have data? that is the issue. Tommarrow we got the public test and I will attend. I hope you do as well as those who participated in this thread. I will observe the game and i always ask questions while I am in game on players general opinion on the subject in question. Also their is nothing wrong with disputing the claims made here, you asked for feedback and that is exactly what i have been doing.


what do you mean? too late for what? this game boomed when the clans arrived. I just want to know what you meant and i meant nothing else.

We can "fix" it because some of us have played long enough within the game to know that there's simply a few things the rule of 3 in its current iteration isn't going to fix or improve much if at all.

I'm not even saying the rule of 3 itself couldn't me adjusted, tweaked, etc. to help fix things but as it is described, explained, and implemented right now, it's simply not going to. So we're going to continue having roflstomps, mismatched battles of skill level, new players in trial mechs trying to compete with vets in custom builds, etc.

Those are things we don't see it fixing (although there are several other factors as well). I understand the "wait and see" approach, I really do, but that doesn't mean we can't, in the meantime, kick around some ideas that will improve these other areas that we know it's not going to fix because it's not designed to fix them. That's what I'm getting at. This isn't a troll or trying to antagonize anyone, it's simply what it says and what it's supposed to be. A feedback thread where we can try to come up with some ideas to help PGI improve the game for everyone.

As for what he meant,

There's still a lot of players where this move was too little too late in the the eyes of some. Regardless of personal opinion on whether those particular players' view is right or wrong, that's what he's referring to. Time will tell but many of us have been through this same cycle before so even those who are optimistic are still very skeptical.

I'll give you an example
"We won't be allowing groups after temporarily removing them nearly 2 years ago and telling everyone we will be putting them back in later"
as opposed to
"We have get the new launch module ready to go, we couldn't get groups in time for launch but we're going to keep looking at how we can get them implemented and they will be brought back in as previously stated when they were originally removed"

Now that second statement? Had THAT statement been made (or something along those lines) I'd still have a clan pack as would several others I know of personally. That first statement made many feel like PGI lied to them and they handed money to the company under false pretenses. Again, regardless of personal opinion on whether or not someone agrees with that opinion is irrelevant because to those that do feel like that, it is true.

I can tell you how that announcement plays out (this is also why some of us who have been around a while make certain assertions like we have with the rule of 3 MM system)

The "we love PGI" camp will:
Antagonize anyone who complained and/or left due to the group announcement.
Do what they can to point them out and further alienate them instead of saying "Hey, PGI fixed it and they're back! That's great! Our community is growing even larger!" because they're more concerned about being "right"

The "we hate PGI" camp will:
Rant and rage about how PGI buckled to their "pressure" and dance about.
Antagonize anyone who is in that first camp showing that them that they were "wrong" and now these players have "won" instead of saying "PGI listened to us! We can play in groups again! The community is growing even larger!"

And you'll have several that will troll any and everything regarding groups and talk about how those premades players "ruined" the game by pressuring PGI to let groups back in.

I'd bet my Boar's Head on it.

Joseph Mallan, on 23 June 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

3⁴ plus up to 10 man teams... should be interesting how well MM will handle this.

I just don't think the rule of 3 is going to work well in general.

I'd actually be interested in your ideas and thoughts on this one Joe. I don't always agree with ya but I've always respected your opinions.