271 replies to this topic

[N0MAD]

Deathlike, on 20 June 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Lots os stuff..

Death can say what i want to say better than i can...
Altho i would love to debate him his skill stance with lights..
I have a lot of opinions on 4x3 and none i like, but i will comment on 4x3 and wait times.
There is a primary reason you see the % numbers of classes being used...thats the % of players that LIKE/WANT to use that class.
There are small flactuations at any given time because some people are maybe taking one they need to for team circumstance or filling a role because the situation requires it.
But primarily it shows what % people want to play that class.
So wait times will increase, the % wont change quickly and in a lot of cases unwillingly (not a good thing)
How long these wait times? nobody knows, it will be affected by player numbers at the given time.
So consider CW, At least 3 more Qs are coming? Imean the IS vs IS, Clan vs IS, Clan vs Clan.
So Qs for just pugs, CW devided by the 3 faction Qs? really? and then kick in a 4x3 rule.
Sounds legit.
I would like to see an ELO if you say ELO works ( dont wana debate it here) + tonage For the MM

[Sandpit]

N0MAD, on 21 June 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

Death can say what i want to say better than i can...
Altho i would love to debate him his skill stance with lights..
I have a lot of opinions on 4x3 and none i like, but i will comment on 4x3 and wait times.
There is a primary reason you see the % numbers of classes being used...thats the % of players that LIKE/WANT to use that class.
There are small flactuations at any given time because some people are maybe taking one they need to for team circumstance or filling a role because the situation requires it.
But primarily it shows what % people want to play that class.
So wait times will increase, the % wont change quickly and in a lot of cases unwillingly (not a good thing)
How long these wait times? nobody knows, it will be affected by player numbers at the given time.
So consider CW, At least 3 more Qs are coming? Imean the IS vs IS, Clan vs IS, Clan vs Clan.
So Qs for just pugs, CW devided by the 3 faction Qs? really? and then kick in a 4x3 rule.
Sounds legit.
I would like to see an ELO if you say ELO works ( dont wana debate it here) + tonage For the MM

that's the other thing none of them seem to want to acknowledge

It's not JUST the rule of 3.
Right now you're in a queue with every other player in the game. Factions won't work like that though. You will ONLY be in a queue with people in YOUR faction. So now you've divided up players from different factions (still don't have ANY clarification on mixed tech other than "it won't be the norm" whatever the hell that means), divided by IS or clan potentially, divided by Elo, and finally divided by weight class.

You REALLY think combining all those restrictions isn't going ot increase wait times dramatically? There are already players who must wait several minutes to find a match or get the dreaded failed to find. That's not going to get better with the new MM system. It's going to get worse.

[Yokaiko]

Jherek C, on 21 June 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

No they should simply stop this MM bullshit they will never get this right. They should just do a proper lobby everything else will never work. Matchmaking, balance, 3333, blabla none of that will ever possibly go right.

HOLY **** this!

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 21 June 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

that's the other thing none of them seem to want to acknowledge

It's not JUST the rule of 3.
Right now you're in a queue with every other player in the game. Factions won't work like that though. You will ONLY be in a queue with people in YOUR faction. So now you've divided up players from different factions (still don't have ANY clarification on mixed tech other than "it won't be the norm" whatever the hell that means), divided by IS or clan potentially, divided by Elo, and finally divided by weight class.

You REALLY think combining all those restrictions isn't going ot increase wait times dramatically? There are already players who must wait several minutes to find a match or get the dreaded failed to find. That's not going to get better with the new MM system. It's going to get worse.

I am Merc. I keel you all... for a price!

[N0MAD]

Sandpit, on 21 June 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

that's the other thing none of them seem to want to acknowledge

It's not JUST the rule of 3.
So now you've divided up players from different factions (still don't have ANY clarification on mixed tech other than "it won't be the norm" whatever the hell that means), divided by IS or clan potentially, divided by Elo, and finally divided by weight class.

I see a couple of ways "it won't be the norm" may turn out.
Pug Q, anything goes as far as chassis, that i suppose will be acceptable.
The other way i see is letting Mercs use both IS and Clan, if this is the case then there is going to be an overwhelming number of Mercs in game, yet another way is to allow Salvaged Mechs, this i think would betray immersion.
That PGI will eventually make cross selection the usual i dont doubt, as it makes for more/better sales strategy.

[Pjwned]

I still don't want to see 3/3/3/3 happen, it will just make matches even more boring & samey than they can get now.

It seems like pretty much the whole reason for it is to make it so teams will have relatively even tonnage, but that can be solved with a simple number barrier instead of class restrictions; I don't see how it's a problem if a team has a bunch of lights & assaults with no in between as long as the other team plays properly.

If nothing else then at least make it so that a team can have as many as 4 or 5 of the same mech size on their team, 3/3/3/3 every time just sounds incredibly boring and likely to make queue times go up quite a bit.

Edited by Pjwned, 21 June 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[Sandpit]

N0MAD, on 21 June 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

I see a couple of ways "it won't be the norm" may turn out.
Pug Q, anything goes as far as chassis, that i suppose will be acceptable.
The other way i see is letting Mercs use both IS and Clan, if this is the case then there is going to be an overwhelming number of Mercs in game, yet another way is to allow Salvaged Mechs, this i think would betray immersion.
That PGI will eventually make cross selection the usual i dont doubt, as it makes for more/better sales strategy.

I see it working out as one of three ways

no mixed tech. THAT one will be real popular. All these shiny new clan mechs that people spent hundreds and thousands of dollars on unusable unless they leave their units and factions. Meltdown form that would be epic. Even I wouldn't troll into that **** storm. lol

mixed tech allowed in private matches only: which means all those people who spent hundreds and thousands of dollars on their shiny clan mechs will ahve to pay for premium time to use them with their buddies in their units. This one will be my personal favorite. Then I get to watch it suddenly not be "ok" to have to use premium private matches to play like so many have said about playing in groups. Shoe will be on the other foot then and the QQ will be particularly delicious

Mixed tech allowed but only in public non-cw matches. Which means all those people who spent hundreds and thousands of dollars can use their clan mechs. As long as they don't mind not playing in CW unless they leave their faction and fight for the other side.

It will be interesting regardless.

[East Indy]

MischiefSC, on 21 June 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

There is a balance to be struck in how much 'freedom' (it's all illusionary, it's a game, all such changes do is alter the rules) you give your consumers vs the manner of structure you present.

I was thinking about that reading your first post, and here you defined it.

Essentially, players/customers respond positively to restrictions all the time — especially when they can benefit by orienting themselves one way or the other in respect to limits and rules. If that weren't the case, there'd be no such thing as puzzles, mazes or games.

[Sandpit]

East Indy, on 21 June 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

I was thinking about that reading your first post, and here you defined it.

Essentially, players/customers respond positively to restrictions all the time — especially when they can benefit by orienting themselves one way or the other in respect to limits and rules. If that weren't the case, there'd be no such thing as puzzles, mazes or games.

agreed but in this case you're talking about a set of rules and regulations that ensures there's some sort of order to a game as opposed to a jumbled mass of people on a field with absolutely no guidelines or direction to even be able to complete much less win.

That's a totally different aspect of "restrictions". It's also why most board games include several "house rules" modifications in their rules now. it's to give players more options on how to play the game.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I think 4x3 will help improve the viability of Light and Medium 'mechs, adding more variety to the game, and this is why ...

Karl Berg, on 09 May 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

I have some recent numbers, this is for a single day of telemetry:

Light: 16% ... Medium: 21% ... Heavy: 35% ... Assault: 28%

Or, an average of 1.9 / 2.5 / 4.2 / 3.4 (with an average drop weight of 758 tons)

Now, I know that a 'mech's value cannot be precisely measured with any one number, but if you take the average hit points and armor for each weight class, and apply those percentages, for that particular day, the amount of damage-soaking on the field was this:
Light: 7.4% ... Medium: 16.8% ... Heavy: 37.5% ... Assault: 38.4%

Divide that by the average number of 'mechs in each weight class, and you can determine how much each represented your team's damage tanking ability;
Light: 3.8% ... Medium: 6.7% ... Heavy: 8.9% ... Assault: 11.4%.

Implement 3/3/3/3 (average drop weight of 697.5), and the numbers by weight class change to this:
Light: 12.5% ... Medium: 21.6% ...Heavy: 28.9% ... Assault: 37.0%

For each 'mech:
Light: 4.2% ... Medium: 7.2% ... Heavy: 9.6% ... Assault: 12.3%

Lower the overall drop weight, and each 'mech becomes more valuable to the team!

[BLOOD WOLF]

Once again, stop over complicating it. Just seems like whining all the time from the three stooges. The new MM is just supposed to balance the teams, which it is gonna do a good job at doing. there is no reason to have something else or complicate it further. Stop dragging on with your ideas of a better MM, or that 3's does not work. you guys are throwing too many variables into something that is simple. Can you stop? last time it was tested no one complained about it in game and as a matter of fact it was applauded and most matches ran longer.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 22 June 2014 - 01:39 AM.

[kapusta11]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 22 June 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:

I think 4x3 will help improve the viability of Light and Medium 'mechs, adding more variety to the game, and this is why ...

Or, an average of 1.9 / 2.5 / 4.2 / 3.4 (with an average drop weight of 758 tons)

Now, I know that a 'mech's value cannot be precisely measured with any one number, but if you take the average hit points and armor for each weight class, and apply those percentages, for that particular day, the amount of damage-soaking on the field was this:
Light: 7.4% ... Medium: 16.8% ... Heavy: 37.5% ... Assault: 38.4%

Divide that by the average number of 'mechs in each weight class, and you can determine how much each represented your team's damage tanking ability;
Light: 3.8% ... Medium: 6.7% ... Heavy: 8.9% ... Assault: 11.4%.

Implement 3/3/3/3 (average drop weight of 697.5), and the numbers by weight class change to this:
Light: 12.5% ... Medium: 21.6% ...Heavy: 28.9% ... Assault: 37.0%

For each 'mech:
Light: 4.2% ... Medium: 7.2% ... Heavy: 9.6% ... Assault: 12.3%

Lower the overall drop weight, and each 'mech becomes more valuable to the team!

Have you been checking the game at least every 1 hour during the whole day to account prime time? What about difference between work days and weekends? I believe your data is simply not valid.

[BLOOD WOLF]

IT was a fix in direct relation to people getting stomped by assault teams, teams being to light, teams that had no assaults, no heavies, no mediums or any number of those. This will ensure every team at least has the same class requirements. The current MM is meant to do one thing and it did that well enough

Pjwned, on 21 June 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

I still don't want to see 3/3/3/3 happen, it will just make matches even more boring & samey than they can get now.

It seems like pretty much the whole reason for it is to make it so teams will have relatively even tonnage, but that can be solved with a simple number barrier instead of class restrictions; I don't see how it's a problem if a team has a bunch of lights & assaults with no in between as long as the other team plays properly.

If nothing else then at least make it so that a team can have as many as 4 or 5 of the same mech size on their team, 3/3/3/3 every time just sounds incredibly boring and likely to make queue times go up quite a bit.

Pjwned, on 21 June 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

I still don't want to see 3/3/3/3 happen, it will just make matches even more boring & samey than they can get now.

It seems like pretty much the whole reason for it is to make it so teams will have relatively even tonnage, but that can be solved with a simple number barrier instead of class restrictions; I don't see how it's a problem if a team has a bunch of lights & assaults with no in between as long as the other team plays properly.

If nothing else then at least make it so that a team can have as many as 4 or 5 of the same mech size on their team, 3/3/3/3 every time just sounds incredibly boring and likely to make queue times go up quite a bit.

A simple numbers barrier would not work.

[BLOOD WOLF]

over-complications and the under-simplifications will do no good here.. Wait times are gonna be longer and shorter based on the number of people playing and less to do with the MM. It can not control people who want to pilot a certain class. Stop bringing in variables that the MM has no control over as a excuse to show weakness in it. Like i said before the job of the MM and that is the main job is to balance the teams, which means each side has the same number of classes. Keep in mind it is gonna try to match weight as close as it can but nothing is 100%.

The Public test for MM is coming up, after the test would have been good time to start this thread.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 22 June 2014 - 01:53 AM.

[kapusta11]

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 June 2014 - 01:45 AM, said:

Stop it

Nice argument you've got there.

[BLOOD WOLF]

kapusta11, on 22 June 2014 - 01:52 AM, said:

Nice argument you've got there.

actually using the word stop is still a valid response in an argument. I could have used Cease? or desist? which word would work best for you? point is this thread ran it's course and finding fault in the MM for things it has no control over is a lame way to carry on. To repeat the goal of the MM is to balance the teams by making sure each side has 3's of each weight class.

as for wait times, i fear that is player related. The MM does have some control and at the same time it does not. Just depends on how many are on and what everybody is using. Some things you can only influence so much.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 22 June 2014 - 02:08 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

kapusta11, on 22 June 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

Have you been checking the game at least every 1 hour during the whole day to account prime time? What about difference between work days and weekends? I believe your data is simply not valid.

I gave the source for my starting figures ... but if you need it again, it's here. They're not my numbers, they're Karl Berg's, from one day of telemetry. Everything else is just arithmetic.

Just curious, what makes you believe the data is not valid? Is your experience different?

[kapusta11]

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 June 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

actually using the word stop is still a valid response in an argument. I could have used Cease? or desist? which word would work best for you? point is this thread ran it's course and finding fault in the MM for things it has no control over is a lame way to carry on. To repeat the goal of the MM is to balance the teams by making sure each side has 3's of each weight class.

as for wait times, i fear that is player related. The MM does have some control and at the same time it does not. Just depends on how many are on and what everybody is using. Some things you can only influence so much.

People have as much right to doubt 4x3 as they do to praise it, at least first can back their point up with facts while later have nothing but faith in someone, who deserves none.

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 22 June 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

I gave the source for my starting figures ... but if you need it again, it's here. They're not my numbers, they're Karl Berg's, from one day of telemetry. Everything else is just arithmetic.

Just curious, what makes you believe the data is not valid? Is your experience different?

My experience does not matter, I just doubt PGI were sitting there collecting data (1 day is not evident to begin with) because I doubt they care.

[BLOOD WOLF]

kapusta11, on 22 June 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

People have as much right to doubt 4x3 as they do to praise it, at least first can back their point up with facts while later have nothing but faith in someone, who deserves none.



My experience does not matter, I just doubt PGI were sitting there collecting data (1 day is not evident to begin with) because I doubt they care.

the reason for doubting it is nonsense and the things I have heard that are doubts have less to do with what the MM is actually supposed to do. you are forgetting that the 3's was in play for a short time and I did have a chance to play with it in place. It worked well and for the first time I had a match that ran to zero time while my team was actually trying to fight rather than hid then pop out.

the people who doubt it have nothing, while the people who praise it do so for that it actually does. Let me repeat myself. The MM is supposed to balance the teams by class. meaning 3 lights, 3 meds, 3 heavies, and 3 assaults. Also group 1 team per side, i consider that secondary.

How about without spanning long paragraphs of nothing explain the pros and cons of the MM with what you know instead of what you speculate.

Let me use your words. the reason i have to praise it= When I was actually part of the new MM before it was taken down was that it actually balanced the teams and the 1 match i got to be in was the best match i ever had. I will say that the wait times were about 30 secs for me, but it was nothing to be bothered over.

the cons=I didn't have any besides the wait times I do not see how this negatively impacts the game.

the third factor is mech variation= you can not control this, players will bring what they feel they wish to bring; However the MM will try to match tonnage, although it is not 100%

Not to mention people keep adding factors that are out of the MM's control and then using what it can not do as a reason to doubt it.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 22 June 2014 - 02:43 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

This also seems as just another attempt to hold contempt for whatever PGI does, I may be wrong on that and I hope i am wrong on that.

Sandpit said it in the beginning of this thread. He didn't dispute that 3's will not balance the game but his concerns were wait times and the fact that 3's does not look in assaulting a planet. I may point out that we have no clue what CW will look like and I doubt it will follow this matchmaker. Of course his stance shifted many times in the course of this thread.

Point is the MM's job is to balance the teams by making sure each side has 3's. Anything other than that is secondary or does not relate to what the MM is supposed to do. With that being said continuing this thread is pointless. This was a disguised feedback thread which turned into a bashing thread, So this thread failed to hold true to form.

Wait for the MM to come back in and then start this thread back up. I am sure we will be able to come with more to offer. Besides that anyone who did not participate using the 3's during the time it was on shouldn't be spreading false propaganda as a way to bash the new MM.

I will say what proof do you have that 3's does not work? ask anyone who attended the PTS for the time it was on. I bet that 90% of the matches people participated in enjoyed the matches. Like i said before I attended the PTS for the small time it was on and the matches were the most fun I have had in a MM.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 22 June 2014 - 03:05 AM.