271 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Shakespeare, on 21 June 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

I don't especially love the solution as proposed, but I absolutely loathe the alternative.

what's the alternative you loathe? The current system?
Most would agree with you, but a lot of us also don't agree that the new rule of 3 will change any of that, which is why I opened this thread after the official feedback thread was closed.

The alternative is coming up with suggestions and ideas to actually come up with a system that WILL improve things as opposed to a system that looks as if it does nothing more than remove options for players while not improving things liek that roflstomp. Change just for change sake is never good. If you're going to change a system (and invest the time, money, energy, and resources that this is taking away from other development) then IMPROVE the system, don't just slap in a system that goes from horrible to mediocre. 3/3/3/3 just seems liek a lazy way to say "hey, we tried! we'll start working on another new system in a few months again"

[Dakshinamurthy]

Forget if someone is a true fan or not, I'm sure there are huge mechwarriors fan who are also not fun to be around. Change the system and let the ******** leave. Anyone who insists on playing a specific mech while refusing to accept a longer search time has proven themselves entirely unwilling to compromise. It's as simple as that. You can't negotiate with these people. What you have to realize is that its going to take some socialism to solve this problem.

On another note, It isn't change for the sake of change if you go from horrible to mediocre. I'm not a programmer but how much time would it take to make that change? Or what about like I said, we compromise on a 6/6 system or 6/3/3. I mean I want a perfect system too.... but what is it? There are clearly people here who insist on playing the mech they want without a slower search time. Well I'm sorry but I don't see how you can create any matchmaking system that caters around that, and unless i'm mistaken nobody has presented one.

Edited by Dakshinamurthy, 21 June 2014 - 10:05 AM.

[YueFei]

Does the NFL have official rules that tell the teams what weight classes of players to use on the field at any one time?

Nope.

Teams just naturally field different combinations of personnel packages based on what they think is the best for a particular situation.

The game evolved organically with no need for artificial external constraints. And you see a variety of weight classes, from players as light as 150 pounds, to behemoths who weigh 350 pounds.

On some plays, you might put in a lot of Wide Receivers, or go with extra Backs, etc. Or, maybe it's a goal line situation, and so you put in your Jumbo package with extra Linemen and Tight Ends to just smash the opposition with brute force. Or maybe that's just what you *want* him to think, but it's actually a trick, and you do play action to the Full Back and then flip it out on a pass for the score.

3/3/3/3 is the equivalent of the NFL telling teams they must always have 2 Wide Receivers, 1 Tight End, 2 Running Backs, and 1 Quarterback, and 5 Linemen, all within a certain weight class depending on the position, and that they may not field ANY OTHER possible personnel packages on the field.

All the variety that would be sucked out of the sport. And people want to do that to MWO? =/

If MWO has a problem with people gravitating towards heavier weight classes, it's because so many of our matches are the Mech equivalent of an NFL goal-line stand. It's the match, map, and game mode parameters that are the problem, not the weight class distribution!

[DeathlyEyes]

YueFei, on 21 June 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

If MWO has a problem with people gravitating towards heavier weight classes, it's because so many of our matches are the Mech equivalent of an NFL goal-line stand. It's the match, map, and game mode parameters that are the problem, not the weight class distribution!

You hit the nail on the head. The problem is in a "goal line formation" you are guranteed a few yards in every situation. In MWO you don't know what situation you are in so tonning up gurantees you a chance regardless of map. Since only a few maps exist where lighter faster mechs are favorable it makes more sense to take a lot of heavier and mechs. That being said on every map in skirmish or assault having the bulk of your mechs be assaults is usually advantageous. Especially if they are dragon slayers. Only one or two light mechs are needed to scout

[Dakshinamurthy]

Firstly I'd just like to say that off the bat I regardless if I am a heavy or a light I prefer matches that are made up of a mix of weights. Let's be honest that right there is the main difference between people who want a change and people who don't. To me this doesn't feel like mechwarrior.

That said, I think there are a few reasons why people are gravitating to heavy/assaults. I don't think it's because heavy teams are more effective, afterall we are matching for tonnage now. In a system that is matchin for tonnage it makes no sense that the size increases are because the bigger team keeps winning..... how could it when the teams are always the same size. There is no selective pressure there. It's because as a light or medium, even if your team wins, often you played little to no part. People get tired of that and say if you can't beat em, join em. Do we want to encourage that?

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons too, but the solution isn't harsh at all. Nobody is asking much of these players. It isn't unreasonable to ask that if you insist on playing a specific mech you get a longer wait time.

I mean i'm sorry we are infringing on the freedoms of these players but it has to be done. If, like I think, most people prefer a game with a balanced number of heavies/lights/mediums/assaults, then how exactly can it be done without stepping on a few toes? I'm sorry but we need gov regulation here, yes we are taking from the selfish and giving to the unselfish, but since when was that a bad thing?

Edited by Dakshinamurthy, 21 June 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[YueFei]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 21 June 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

You hit the nail on the head. The problem is in a "goal line formation" you are guranteed a few yards in every situation. In MWO you don't know what situation you are in so tonning up gurantees you a chance regardless of map. Since only a few maps exist where lighter faster mechs are favorable it makes more sense to take a lot of heavier and mechs. That being said on every map in skirmish or assault having the bulk of your mechs be assaults is usually advantageous. Especially if they are dragon slayers. Only one or two light mechs are needed to scout

Yup! Look what they did with the Cap Points in Alpine on Conquest Mode. They used to be spread apart so you needed speed to control them. Now they clumped all of them within a 1 kilometer radius, except for Gamma which is way off in the corner of the map for some reason. =/

[BLOOD WOLF]

Keep in mind most of this is assumption. Until anyone gather's data on how the new 3's effect game-play this back and fourth is not going to get anyone anywhere.

[Dakshinamurthy]

I mean the fact is we know that people aren't playing heavies due to any selective pressure since the game is balancing matchmaking for tonnage now. It's a stupid point and deserves ridicule. Thanks for pointing out that if one team had heavier mechs they would have an advantage..... very astute....... thankfully that isn't the case. I like the comparison between the NFL and mech warrior too, really adds a lot to the discussion.

Edited by Dakshinamurthy, 21 June 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[Wispsy]

Dakshinamurthy, on 21 June 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

Wispy it's hard for me to be patient here because to my mind this is actually a really simple concept that you just aren't getting. But here goes

If you are a light or a medium in a 75% heavy/assault game game you might be worth say .4 of a player slot. If you are a light or a medium in a game with 50% heavy/assault game you might be worth say .7 of a player slot. I can't explain it anymore clearly than that.

Furthermore what are we suppose to take from this sentence, "if 80% of people are i heavies/assault in queue there is a reason for it" ...... okay......

No the heavies and assaults are worth way more too...because there is less opposing them.

What you say is just 1 way logic...which is not how life works..

Also what you are meant to take from that is for whatever reason most people like to play heavier mechs...so maybe there is an issue with balance and/or how much fun different classes are...and forcing people into ones that are clearly seen as less fun...by quite a large amount...how is that smart game to make people have fun playing so they wish to keep playing?

Edited by Wispsy, 21 June 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[Dakshinamurthy]

They are worth more correct and nobody minds that. That is what we are advocating for. None the less, the mediums and lights are worth more too.

I already said above, it is unreasonable for someone to both insist on playing only one type of mech while simultaneously refusing to have a longer search time. When someone is being that unreasonable it becomes hard to come up with any system that works. You can't cater to people who are that selfish.

Edited by Dakshinamurthy, 21 June 2014 - 10:49 AM.

[Wispsy]

BLOOD WOLF, on 21 June 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Keep in mind most of this is assumption. Until anyone gather's data on how the new 3's effect game-play this back and fourth is not going to get anyone anywhere.

Well whilst I have not played it often in the pub queue I have played an awful lot of restricted classes and tonnage drops. The only time it is better for light mechs and worse for assaults is when 10 out of 12 people are in lights/meds. 3-3-3-3 is actually worse then 6-3-1-2 for lights as they have stupid streak mediums prepared to zone you the whole game making sure all your damage is from 300m away and the heavies/assaults have less big things to worry about so can freely spend the time to try and 1shot you without the risk of missing causing you to lack the dps/heat for the push.

[Wispsy]

Dakshinamurthy, on 21 June 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

They are worth more correct and nobody minds that. That is what we are advocating for. None the less, the mediums and lights are worth more too.

I already said above, it is unreasonable for someone to both insist on playing only one type of mech while simultaneously refusing to have a longer search time. When someone is being that unreasonable you can't come up with -any- system better than the one we currently have, which is balancing for tonnage.

You think the queue time bothers me? I already spend longer in queue then I actually spend in game, 100% fact, whilst playing light mechs....

You do not seem to get it, if lights and heavies are both worth more, then in relative terms there is no change...the heavies are still what are going to win the game without some hero actions whilst being ignored. I do not think tonnage balancing in unreasonable. I think that forcing 25% of people (the amount who will have to switch to lights/meds) into a role that is clearly not as fun (else it would be more popular or at least close to the others) is not good for a game. ESPECIALLY when it actually changes very little, you will still get rolled by super weight premades taking total advantage and if you get stuck with **** heavies and you are in a medium your team will just get crushed from range before you can be properly effective. It will be just like turning a corner into 3 assaults right now, most people go "oh **** this ****, i am just getting in my heavy so I can have those same ******* advantages and not get pissed off at idiots killing me just because they are heavier".

I mean I am not saying this in a selfish way but the only reason people play games is to have fun...if it just becomes frustration, then why the **** would they stay around? There is no "grow up" about it...that is akin to saying "take it like a man"....I am not going to ******* take it at all...no penis is going near my ass no matter how unmanly that may make me.

Edited by Wispsy, 21 June 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[Dakshinamurthy]

No you don't get it. It's more fun for everyone involved. The heavies feel like heavies because they aren't fighting a bunch of heavies. The mediums/lights feel like they are actually worth something.... because they aren't fighting a bunch of heavies. I don't see a drawback there except you saying, "I want to have my cake and eat it too." I don't like playing light/medium mechs and I shouldn't have to wait longer because I refuse to.

Also like you said, when people get killed enough times as medium/lights they just give up and go heavy, something that clearly happens more often when you are one of 3 lights/mediums on a 75% heavy/assault map. Good job, you just explained away your entire point that people pick heavy/assault because they find them more fun. We are in a feedback loop now where being a medium or light is actively discouraged, not because it isn't effective (we are balancing for tonnage now obviously that not the case), but because it isn't fun. You'll win 50% of the time, you just wont be of any real consequence to the game.

Edited by Dakshinamurthy, 21 June 2014 - 11:04 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Let's just wait and see what happens

[Wispsy]

Dakshinamurthy, on 21 June 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

No you don't get it. It's more fun for everyone involved. The heavies feel like heavies because they aren't fighting a bunch of heavies. The mediums/lights feel like they are actually worth something.... because they aren't fighting a bunch of heavies. I don't see a drawback there except you saying, "I want to have my cake and eat it too." I don't like playing light/medium mechs and I shouldn't have to wait longer because I refuse to.

But that is not the case...the mediums and the lights still do not get to feel like they are worth something...

Also I think you may have made some false assumptions there...There are very few people in this game that have been a dedicated light mech pilot then I. I would also find it hard to imagine there are many who have close to as many games in light mechs as I do. What I am trying to do is look at this objectively, which you seem incapable of doing. I have always enjoyed playing lights, the big risk and high speed etc. Most people apparently do not...and that reason should be addressed, before forcing them into it...this is not a job...

[Dakshinamurthy]

It's plainly clear for everyone to see that a medium/light feels more impact in game with 50% heavies/assault than 75%. Yes, heavies/assaults also feel like they have more impact. I see a win/win here. Why you are trying to obscure this concept is beyond me.

[Yokaiko]

Dakshinamurthy, on 21 June 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

It's plainly clear for everyone to see that a medium/light feels more impact in game with 50% heavies/assault than 75%. Yes, heavies/assaults also feel like they have more impact. I see a win/win here. Why you are trying to obscure this concept is beyond me.

Its a fundamental design issue.

The maps aren't BIG enough for the added mobility to matter, the slowest assualt can get to any fight, on damn near any map.

There.
is.
no.
reason.
to.
medium

At least lights have ecm

[kapusta11]

In a game where you have 1 life, 1 mech and mechs are not balanced with each other (and they shouldn't according to BT) there should be a system that rates each individual mech like - Battle Value. See, no need to invent the wheel.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Yokaiko, on 21 June 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Its a fundamental design issue.

The maps aren't BIG enough for the added mobility to matter, the slowest assualt can get to any fight, on damn near any map.

There.
is.
no.
reason.
to.
medium

At least lights have ecm

kind of messes up your reasoning, because plenty of people still run mediums.

[Dakshinamurthy]

Yokaiko we get that point it has been parroted many times but I think you are misrepresenting it. It isn't that there is no reason to go medium, it's that it isn't fun to go medium because you don't have as big an impact, so say that next time. Now i'll concede that in a 3/3/3/3 system it still might not be fun for mediums/lights, but it will be a hell of a lot more fun than it is now playing in games with 75% assaults/heavies.

And like this man above me said, despite all the hate of lights/mediums you still see what, 30% of people playing them? That fact is some people want to be the underdog just not to such an absurd extreme. Wispy already pointed out that it will be more fun for assault in a 3/3/3/3 system because they will actually feel like assaults. The only drawback is that people who insist on playing heavies/assaults will have a longer wait time. Do you really expect sympathy from the argument that, "I insist on playing only one type of mech and refuse to accept a longer wait time?" You're flirting with poe's law.

Edited by Dakshinamurthy, 21 June 2014 - 11:20 AM.