271 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 25 June 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I am so very much looking forward to playing with teammates and friends with the flexibility to have more than four pilots in a group, when it's not a big deal for one guy to drop out for a match or two, not a big deal for another player to join up, not a problem when we have two, three, or four guys that have to leave as the session goes long ... in short, this is going to change casual (and not so casual) group play dramatically.

Groups of 2-10 makes me very, very happy!

However ... if this isn't a "Murphy's Law" of game development, it should be ...
"No good idea survives first contact with the live servers intact."

well between the disenfranchised
players leveling up new clan mechs
timing
short periods of it being open
no incentives (not that I feel those should be required but they do help)

I didn't really expect anything but. It shouldn't be a surprise that the numbers were miniscule especially compared to the clan test. If they had opened up the PST with clan mechs available, 50 million cbills and a million gxp, they'd have overloaded the servers, throw in a free mech bay and insta-fill servers. I would have even patched and logged in for that one I think.

[Sandpit]

Ok, so after playing for a few hours last night I've come to a few conclusions about the rule of 3.

One, it has done nothing to increase the number of lights and mediums on the field.

Two, the release valves appear to be working as we dropped in everything from a 4man to 10man and never had any lengthy wait times. 1-2 minutes at most but most times well under a minute to find a game and launch.

Three, I don't see MM doing any better of a job with matching up new players in the solo queues.

The group queue was fun. The solo queue is the exact same as before. The MM system isn't going to fix anything regarding mech variety (as many of us have stated) because no amount of "forcing" players to take something they don't want to play in is going to change their minds.

This is why we need to start getting PGI to listen to options instead of restrictions if they want more variety.

All in all it does what it did before except now it makes you wait longer in a few isolated cases and puts a few more restrictions on teams in being able to launch. I don't see it actually "improving" anything honestly. It's the nature of the rule of 3 though. Players aren't going to switch their preferred weight classes just because PGI "said so". That was proven in the first launch of 3x4, it didn't work because players will drive what they want.
The MM had to be taken down and release valves introduced to allow players to find games.

The rule of 3 is far from dead in the water, it just doesn't improve much, if anything in the MM system. The whole basis of the rule of 3 was to diversify mechs on the field and it's not doing that. It's time for PGI to try a different approach to achieve this.

[Deathlike]

Solo is the true derp queue. Play it in long enough and you'll understand why.

[ArchSight]

Sandpit, on 04 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Ok, so after playing for a few hours last night I've come to a few conclusions about the rule of 3.

One, it has done nothing to increase the number of lights and mediums on the field.

Two, the release valves appear to be working as we dropped in everything from a 4man to 10man and never had any lengthy wait times. 1-2 minutes at most but most times well under a minute to find a game and launch.

Three, I don't see MM doing any better of a job with matching up new players in the solo queues.

The group queue was fun. The solo queue is the exact same as before. The MM system isn't going to fix anything regarding mech variety (as many of us have stated) because no amount of "forcing" players to take something they don't want to play in is going to change their minds.

This is why we need to start getting PGI to listen to options instead of restrictions if they want more variety.

All in all it does what it did before except now it makes you wait longer in a few isolated cases and puts a few more restrictions on teams in being able to launch. I don't see it actually "improving" anything honestly. It's the nature of the rule of 3 though. Players aren't going to switch their preferred weight classes just because PGI "said so". That was proven in the first launch of 3x4, it didn't work because players will drive what they want.
The MM had to be taken down and release valves introduced to allow players to find games.

The rule of 3 is far from dead in the water, it just doesn't improve much, if anything in the MM system. The whole basis of the rule of 3 was to diversify mechs on the field and it's not doing that. It's time for PGI to try a different approach to achieve this.

The new match maker did remove snyc drops of premade groups from the solo player's by restricting it to only one group per side.

[Sandpit]

ArchSight, on 04 July 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

The new match maker did remove snyc drops of premade groups from the solo player's by restricting it to only one group per side.

which has absolutely NOTHING to do with 3/3/3/3
that has to do with a separate queue being implemented for groups

it didn't
improve npe
stop roflstomps
increase weight class variety on the battlefield
or really anything else it was touted as improving

[MischiefSC]

Ipug queue I get within one mech of 3x4 every match.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 10 July 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

Ipug queue I get within one mech of 3x4 every match.

and yet there are tons of others stating otherwise as well as complaining that the qaulity of their matches overall has dropped. Even if you are getting better spread on weight classes in your matches, the %'s don't lie. Lights and mediums are still severely underrepresented. according to the game. I've yet to see lights hit anything over 15% or so.

It still didn't stop roflstomps
improve npe
improve match quality overall (according to several solo players I've talked to)
etc.

Point being, many of us said this when it was announced in the first place. Yet resources, time, and money were plunked into 3/3/3/3 that could have gone into stuff that would ahve helped improve those things.

You have the same roflstomps and mismatches that you had before the rule of 3. I'm sure it has slightly improved a few things for a few people but overall it hasn't.

[MischiefSC]

% is people waiting, not in math. I will screencap 10 or 20 matches tonight. I atill have a ton from my lbx experiment from months ago.

Im getting 2 or 3 lights and 2 or 3 mexiums each match, each side. I had a match last night with 4 lights and 2assaults on my team.

Ill post end of round caps though. No mocking, just a bunch of back to back pug matches to see population.

Ill also post all those caps from months ago. Preclans. Fair?.

Edited by MischiefSC, 10 July 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 10 July 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

% is people waiting, not in math. I will screencap 10 or 20 matches tonight. I atill have a ton from my lbx experiment from months ago.

Im getting 2 or 3 lights and 2 or 3 mexiums each match, each side. I had a match last night with 4 lights and 2assaults on my team.

Ill post end of round caps though. No mocking, just a bunch of back to back pug matches to see population.

Ill also post all those caps from months ago. Preclans. Fair?.

Sure that's fair enough. The problem is that you have just as many willing to do the same to show the exact opposite. I have no doubts that some players are experiencing a few improvements here and there.

I don't think it's improving it for the majority of the population though.

It still doesn't address the other issues. I've never ever said someone's experience wasn't true (unless it was just blatantly false). Your game experience is going to be different.

I had periods of much more balanced matches overall as far as roflstomps go with some of the Elo experiments PGI has performed over the last 6 months or so. That wasn't the norm though. There's a lot of factors that go into balancing a complex MM system that involves
customized mechs
new players
vets
Elo
Weight
Weight classes
etc.

My entire point has ALWAYS been that the rule of 3 is not going to improve a lot of this because it can't.
Elo didn't improve much because it can't
Weight class balancing won't because it can't

Given all of the factors that go into a player launching from Elo to mech, it takes more than any one singular system to help balance that. It's too complex and there's too many "uneven" factors involved to be balanced by any one mechanic all on its lonesome.

If you read back through, contrary to what a few have posted in this thread, my contention was never that 3/3/3/3 was "bad", it always was and is that the rule of 3 cannot balance this complex MM system all on its own and that anyone thinking the rule of 3 was going to be some savior to balancing the MM system.

and it hasn't

you still ahve players experiencing roflstomps
you still have new players dropped against vets in customized mechs
you still have pugs that have next to no communication tools
you still have huge discrepancies in weight class variety
you still have the same old mechs running around even in those weight classes and if you have a match that's closely balanced by weight class

3/3/3/3 did not and cannot fix those things. My argument against it was always that. Yet I've had many people in this thread tell me I was wrong and that it would. Well.....

It hasn't. Maybe NOW we can have a discussion on ideas that WILL improve those things?

[MischiefSC]

I challenge anyone to post 10 back to back matches with significant weight class discrepancy.

It was never about stomps, it was about mechs in a match.

In pug matches though its no longer all assaults and heavies. Elo in tiers is still coming.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 10 July 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

I challenge anyone to post 10 back to back matches with significant weight class discrepancy.

It was never about stomps, it was about mechs in a match.

In pug matches though its no longer all assaults and heavies. Elo in tiers is still coming.

and yet again

Sandpit, on 10 July 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

you still ahve players experiencing roflstomps
you still have new players dropped against vets in customized mechs
you still have pugs that have next to no communication tools
you still have huge discrepancies in weight class variety
you still have the same old mechs running around even in those weight classes and if you have a match that's closely balanced by weight class

3/3/3/3 did not and cannot fix those things. My argument against it was always that. Yet I've had many people in this thread tell me I was wrong and that it would. Well.....

so NOW can we have a discussion of ideas on how to improve these things?

I get it, you think it gives better weight class balancing.
Ok, you're right bud. It does. Now that there's nothing to argue about in that regard...

can we discuss ideas on how to improve these other aspects?

[MischiefSC]

You cant stop rolls - though it is less common. High/low elo fix is elo in tiers. We gave that up to get group queue. Population density and all.
W
e now have higher dps but longer ttk. What else you want?

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 10 July 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

What else you want?

so before I get started on this, you think the MM is perfect then? There's nothing about it to improve? Because that's exactly what I'm asking for a discussion on, how to improve the MM. Not a discussion on whether it's "good" or "bad" so unless you feel the current MM is perfect and could use no adjustment and improvement, then there's obviously room to improve it.

(i could have sworn i posted this list) (twice, which makes this the third time...)
a better npe - meaning new players not getting stomped by vets
a better way to mitigate more roflstomps - meaning continuously reducing them
better communication tools for pugs - meaning lobbies so they can match up and coordinate prior to dropping
(i'll leave out weight class matching since you disagree that it could use improving)
better mech variety - meaning coming up with ways to see more "unpopular" mechs on the field


I don't know how else to state it dude. This is the third time I've listed this and asked for discussion regarding how to improve a system that needs improving in certain areas.

[MischiefSC]

Fundamental issue is population. I think its about as good as it can get.

[GRiPSViGiL]

ROLFStomps will never be eliminated. The nature of this game isn't one where games can be turned around much although rarely can happen. Once the first mech goes down it just becomes a domino effect. Not only do the numbers advantage extrapolate that but the psychological effect further knocks down more domino's.

We should not be focusing on the elimination of Stomps in my opinion. Even in the competitive scene you often see high level teams get stomped. Such is life in this kind of a game. One life means you have to think about what you are doing because one mistake can start the domino's falling in the wrong direction. I think the MM changes have been outstanding and the game is in a much better state currently.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 10 July 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[Karamarka]

GRiPSViGiL, on 10 July 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

ROLFStomps will never be eliminated. The nature of this game isn't one where games can be turned around much although rarely can happen. Once the first mech goes down it just becomes a domino effect. Not only do the numbers advantage extrapolate that but the psychological effect further knocks down more domino's.

We should not be focusing on the elimination of Stomps in my opinion. Even in the competitive scene you often see high level teams get stomped. Such is life in this kind of a game. One life means you have to think about what you are doing because one mistake can start the domino's falling in the wrong direction. I think the MM changes have been outstanding and the game is in a much better state currently.

A stomp happens when 1 team has 2 cadets and the other team doesn't

Or 1 team has 2 trial mechs who are new.

They are a nature of the game due to no respawns, but to negate the Elo fact is bad. New players have Average level Elo so they do show up, if 3 new cadets charge in and die, of course it's going to be a stomp.

[MischiefSC]

Karamarka, on 10 July 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

A stomp happens when 1 team has 2 cadets and the other team doesn't

Or 1 team has 2 trial mechs who are new.

They are a nature of the game due to no respawns, but to negate the Elo fact is bad. New players have Average level Elo so they do show up, if 3 new cadets charge in and die, of course it's going to be a stomp.

No. They happen due to the nature of 12 v 12 teams - two people die, for any reason, the superior concentration of firepower starts to creep in.

I would say *most* really competitive 12man matches end up as stomps. The stomp may take 10 minutes to happen, but it's often a stomp. Back when it was all 12mans that was always the case, even with two teams of very good people stacking literally 12 highlanders and victor poptarts.

Good players get killed early all the time. All the time. The first guy to die is not always a nub. Sometimes great players with high Elo decide to level up Quickdraws, or drag their old Dragon build out, or try to get a Battlemaster build that works for them.

Stomps are an inevitable aspects of this sort of game. No matter the Elo or tonnage or team makeup.

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 10 July 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

so before I get started on this, you think the MM is perfect then? There's nothing about it to improve? Because that's exactly what I'm asking for a discussion on, how to improve the MM. Not a discussion on whether it's "good" or "bad" so unless you feel the current MM is perfect and could use no adjustment and improvement, then there's obviously room to improve it.

(i could have sworn i posted this list) (twice, which makes this the third time...)
a better npe - meaning new players not getting stomped by vets
a better way to mitigate more roflstomps - meaning continuously reducing them
better communication tools for pugs - meaning lobbies so they can match up and coordinate prior to dropping
(i'll leave out weight class matching since you disagree that it could use improving)
better mech variety - meaning coming up with ways to see more "unpopular" mechs on the field


I don't know how else to state it dude. This is the third time I've listed this and asked for discussion regarding how to improve a system that needs improving in certain areas.

Yes, but here's the thing - the causes of those issues are not the matchmaker.

Better new player experience is a lobby or outreach system, or a multiplayer training ground.

Stomps have little to do with the matchmaker. They are an inherent aspect of team games like this. You've played 12mans, you know this. The most competitive matches between the most competitive teams still often end up as 12-0, 12-1, 12-2.

Better communication tool? I dunno, better school education for western civilizations? I will never use a VOIP system for this game - most people won't. If someone wants that we already have TS and the like available. Some easier and more intuitive targeting tools would be great. I've discussed NARC improvements for, essentially, information sharing/information warfare. Nothing MM related though.

More mechs on the field? Would freaking LOVE a complete balance pass - though sweeping and comprehensive changes in mech, weapon and equipment balances are a completely different topic.

The matchmaker though? Quite pleased with it. It does extremely well now with the resources available to it.

[AssaultPig]

I would be interested in more data about how effectively the 3/3/3/3 rule is being 'enforced' currently. I appreciate that the MM is now trying, but it seems impossible to do if the queue is regularly 75+% heavy/assault and there is any type of 'release valve' at all. It's easy to see in practice as well, as solo queues regularly include fewer than 6 light/medium mechs.

The group queue is enforcing it to some extent, but as long as groups don't have to include a proportional number of lighter mechs it won't really work properly.

[PappySmurf]

I think right now the pug/solo/casual MM FFA 12v12 matches are the best they have ever been so I say leave it alone.If anything just add more game mode options and maps.

3/3/3/3 should actually be just a game mode plus they should just add a stock trial mode also for fun and a IS VS Clan game mode as well.It would spice up the game quite a bit from the only 3 game modes we have now.

Game mode list
Assault
Capture
Skirmish
3/3/3/3
Stock/trial
Clan Vs IS

The group queue in the recent announcement looks like it is being worked on so 1v1-12v12 match ups are going to be a viable option. Which should be better for balancing out groups.


If Cw is going to be like say the old NBT or MWL leagues werre I think it will work out just fine for MWO.

http://www.netbattletech.com/nbt-hc/

Edited by PappySmurf, 10 July 2014 - 07:11 PM.