335 replies to this topic

[DeathlyEyes]

Alpine are two problems with the large maps we have currently. The first is that there aren't good paths around the maps. Alpine is the worst, there aren't paths for brawlers to get close especially if they don't have jump Jets. The second is that you don't know what map you are going to get. This means if you take an Direwolf hoping to get a small map and get alpine you get to travel several kilometers at 48kph. That's not very fun either. They need to clean up the existing maps. River City, forest colony, frozen city and to a lesser extent caustic Valley all need to be expanded. Alpine and Tera Thermal need their layouts drastically improved with better routes. Tera Therma desperately needs more access to the center a long with more cover in the center. Alpine needs more terrain features. Canyon was the closest to perfect until Hill climb basically screwed most ground bound mechs. Tourmaline was the closest to perfect until the new spawns. One Lance is generally screwed on most game modes since it spawns off to one side near theta and in order to regroup has to cross an open area.

[Pygar]

xhrit, on 20 June 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

....Alpine is bad...

Alpine is a huge map with very little cover, and very little varity in terrain. There are open snow fields, rocky snowfields, gentley rolling hilly snowfields, and steep mountainous snow fields.

Disagree.

There are plenty of other maps that are almost overcrowded with terrain that make using long range weapons difficult at their full range (or even impossible)...and really, flat featureless terrain is more common in the real world than places where 10 meter tall battle robots would actually be able to creep around and play hide and seek/sneak and brawl.

Edited by Pygar, 20 June 2014 - 02:07 PM.

[Votanin FleshRender]

Random drop locations would change the feel of the current maps + fix the pop tart meta. If There's a chance your Lance is going to spawn next to an enemies lance you'll see a huge resurgence in brawling.

Might be crazy.

Might be crazy fun!

[Roland]

We played hour long battles in Mechwarrior 4 that would have been impossible with maps that were as small as MWO's.

Until you have dramatically bigger maps, scouts will essentially be useless.

In mechwarrior 4, our scouts actually scouted.. you needed them to find the enemy.

[GreyGriffin]

Monky, on 20 June 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Tourmaline is alright, needs a MAJOR terrain geometry pass as shots that -should- hit will almost always impact invisible walls if they are fired near or at an opponent near the crystaline structures.

BLLAAAHGUGHGHL!

[Suko]

I actually agree with him. In fact, I have since before Alpine was introduced. All the hardcore guys say they want these stupid large maps, but they're a waste of space. I think Caustic is just right in size. The map is a bit boring, but the size is good. I think more maps should be that size. Large, but not so large that it takes 3 minutes to walk from one end to the other in a typical heavy mech.

[Sephlock]

Sandpit, on 20 June 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

Ok, I know a lot of players don't follow twitter so

https://twitter.com/bryanekman @bryanekman @Paul_Inouye I think we could go bigger but honestly I dont think people have shown to like them so far in MWO

Russ Bullock (@russ_bullock) https://twitter.com/...731313021177857 June 19, 2014

The problem is that "bigger maps" = Alpine, Tourmaline, and Mordor in their minds.

And they are correct in that we did not like the Mech Hiking simulator at all.

[Wolfways]

I dislike the small maps. My wife hates Forest Colony (which in closed beta i assumed was a placeholder ).

Bigger maps encourage:
Longer matches (i would love 30 minute {no respawn} to 1 hour+ {respawn} matches)
Scouting
Lances splitting up to capture objectives, or just not being huddled together next to the same small piece of cover
Flanking
Teamwork
Would make faster mechs (lights, mediums) more popular

My biggest gripe about MWO maps is that they seem to be designed with one single concept in mind and don't allow for various playstyles.
For example. Throw some shapes together for a small arena and you have HPG manifold (yes i hate that map). A big mountainous map...snow and some hills.
Maps just seem to have two kinds of areas. Most of the map is cover (buildings, hills, etc.) and some of it (the generally unused bit) is water with no cover at all.
Alpine could have done with having Frozen City dropped on it somewhere imo.

If Crimson Straits had open land with hills or a couple of small buildings, and a stream with bridges instead of just open water it would be better.

[Belorion]

I like the bigger maps, but I think Russ is right, I have heard nothing but complaints about the bigger maps being... big.

In fact in the beginning I heard lots of complaints about the maps being too small, but when the big ones were put in, the crys of nerf the big maps came much stronger than the people complaining there weren't big maps.

[Alistair Winter]

People who argue that we don't need big maps because Alpine & Terra Therma are terrible maps show a lack of critical thinking which is nothing short of astounding.

Let me tell you what makes those maps terrible:

• A huge terrain feature near the center, which dominates gameplay in nearly every match
  
• Lack of viable routes. This is slightly better with the new drop zones, but it's still pretty much "do we go left or do we go right" most of the time. The matches on these maps are fairly predictable.
  
• Big hills makes for very boring fights, most of the time, because every engagement is either a bottle neck or a long range artillery-fest. You don't really need to think on your feet, you just need a good aim and know the exact moment to peep around the corner or above the hill.

Let me tell you what doesn't make those maps terrible.

• Their size.

[DeathlyEyes]

Votanin FleshRender, on 20 June 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

Random drop locations would change the feel of the current maps + fix the pop tart meta. If There's a chance your Lance is going to spawn next to an enemies lance you'll see a huge resurgence in brawling.

Might be crazy.

Might be crazy fun!

Yay let's further increase the game of rock paper scissors. This game just needs balanced spawns and paths through the maps that cater to the 3-4 different game types.

[Sephlock]

Alistair Winter, on 20 June 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

People who argue that we don't need big maps because Alpine & Terra Therma are terrible maps show a lack of critical thinking which is nothing short of astounding.

Let me tell you what makes those maps terrible:

• A huge terrain feature near the center, which dominates gameplay in nearly every match
  
• Lack of viable routes. This is slightly better with the new drop zones, but it's still pretty much "do we go left or do we go right" most of the time. The matches on these maps are fairly predictable.
  
• Big hills makes for very boring fights, most of the time, because every engagement is either a bottle neck or a long range artillery-fest. You don't really need to think on your feet, you just need a good aim and know the exact moment to peep around the corner or above the hill.

Let me tell you what doesn't make those maps terrible.

• Their size.

Let me tell you how PGI does large maps:

As you described.

Let me tell you how PGI does not do large maps:

Well.

Unless that changes, we are right in rejecting the idea of large maps from PGI.

[Deathlike]

ShadowVFX, on 20 June 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

I actually agree with him. In fact, I have since before Alpine was introduced. All the hardcore guys say they want these stupid large maps, but they're a waste of space. I think Caustic is just right in size. The map is a bit boring, but the size is good. I think more maps should be that size. Large, but not so large that it takes 3 minutes to walk from one end to the other in a typical heavy mech.

Alpine is boring.

Think about it for a second.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...peaks&m=assault

Turn on the heatmaps on that map. Turn on movement, as this highlights a problem.

I would hazard a guess to say that AT LEAST 20% of the map goes unexplored (it's closer to 30% IMO). Of the routes generally taken on that map, I would say 20% of the movement is RELATIVELY UNCOMMON.

This suggests that the map design is not where it needs to be. Whether it be Conquest, Assault, or Skirmish... it has little to no variety in the routes taken. If there were multiple valid routes, there would be more action in the areas of interest. Instead, we know that H9-I10 is where the action is at most of the time on Assault/Skirmish with the occasional tower route assault route.

That's a problem with mapmaking not size.

[Alistair Winter]

Sephlock, on 20 June 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

Let me tell you how PGI does large maps:
As you described.
Let me tell you how PGI does not do large maps:
Well.
Unless that changes, we are right in rejecting the idea of large maps from PGI.

I'll go one further.
Most of the maps in MWO are far inferior to what I'm used to in other FPS games.
That doesn't mean I want them to stop making maps.
They will get it right, at some point. And eventually, players will be able to select maps, according to what Russ Bullock has said previously.

It will happen when CW is implemented.

In the year of our lord 2034, probably.

And we will get a free mechbay for our patience.

[Davers]

Most people don't like big maps. Outside of 12 man drops, most of EVERY map is under-utilized. Most players will march off to the same locations every match, even if if is to a disadvantageous position, because 'that's where the enemy is'.

Now some of this is because of poor communication tools. But I really think a bigger part is people just want to fight, get their Cbills/exp, and repeat.

[Kell Commander]

Sandpit, on 20 June 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

I mean when you spawn and you're automatically within LRM range of the enemy team before you even move, that's kinda ridiculous in my opinion.

And since Clan weapons have shown up with far better ranges, the problem has been exacerbated.

[Sandpit]

xhrit, on 20 June 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

People don't like alpine because it is bad, not because it is big.
mountains, etc, etc...

I'd tend to agree

I personally think Russ' comments show he's out of touch a bit with his player base. I've seen NUMEROUS threads wanting more and bigger maps. I have not, however, seen people clamoring for smaller maps outside of wanting one or two for things like Solaris tournies.

[Davers]

Alistair Winter, on 20 June 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

[*]Lack of viable routes. This is slightly better with the new drop zones, but it's still pretty much "do we go left or do we go right" most of the time. The matches on these maps are fairly predictable.

[/list]

You go right. Everyone goes right all the time. If you go left you will run into the entire enemy team (because they all went right too).

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 20 June 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Most people don't like big maps. Outside of 12 man drops, most of EVERY map is under-utilized. Most players will march off to the same locations every match, even if if is to a disadvantageous position, because 'that's where the enemy is'.

Now some of this is because of poor communication tools. But I really think a bigger part is people just want to fight, get their Cbills/exp, and repeat.

Different matter entirely but I agree and I also thing PGI's catering to those players is why MWO is in the state it's in. (Personal opinion on whether that's a good or bad thing is irrelevant).

I think this is where we start diverging from "thinking man's shooter" to "run of the mill just like every other shooter out there"

bigger maps (and as someone else mentioned) longer match times would go a looooooooooooooong way towards making this an actual strategic game again. There's very little strategy to be utilized when you're within medium range (and can't move beyond that in many cases) within the first 2 minutes of the game every single time.

[NeonKnight]

I still say have two versions of the maps.

Imagine Alpine with the following two options. GREEN bases are as we currently have them. But imagine dropping and sometimes getting the RED bases as the objectives. Certainly not saying the map would be different, but it IS a start.