335 replies to this topic

[Goose]

Flash Frame, on 21 June 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

Eh, I tend to have fun on it 9 times out of 10... and I've been having a ton more fights in the outskirts of the caldera than inside the middle these days.

Conventional Wisdom Poisoning

• Blob-it-Out
  
• Always go to Teh Same Damn Place (That's Where Teh Fight Is)
  
• Don't Lead PuGs, Follow Them
  
• There's Nothing to Be Aware Of: Stare in the Same Direction
  
• Recon is Suicide (See points one and two, above)
  
• Balanced Builds are Bad

ECM did a lot of damage to the playerbases' learning curve, almost as much as letting 1337s in PowerBuilds rove around outside of Lobbies. Not having an Elo per 'Mech is also all kinds'a bad …

The point is everyone has learned a lot of bad habits, even the guys on TeamSpeak, The few whom have broken out of this thought-box keep to themselves …

[Alex Warden]

well Russ compeletely doges the real core of the issue again...

it´s not that people won´t like bigger maps, it´s just that PGI designs them in a way that totally misses the potential of big maps...

also: if there was STUFF to do on those maps (yea the old outpost/ bases/ communication posts etc. topic), the space could be USED and thus the maps could be way more than just "longer ways to the point of engagement"...

so, unless PGI brings on some more game modes which support larger maps, or they design their maps other than large open spaces with no incentive to use that... yea, probably we are better off with medium size maps...

Edited by Alex Warden, 21 June 2014 - 09:14 AM.

[Wolfways]

Goose, on 21 June 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

Conventional Wisdom Poisoning

• Blob-it-Out
  
• Always go to Teh Same Damn Place (That's Where Teh Fight Is)
  
• Don't Lead PuGs, Follow Them
  
• There's Nothing to Be Aware Of: Stare in the Same Direction
  
• Recon is Suicide (See points one and two, above)
  
• Balanced Builds are Bad

Am i the only one who read that as?:

1 Stik together ladz.
2 Let's get to da fightin'.
3 Follow da Warboss!
4 Red wunz go fasta!
5 Stop messin' about an' get in da fight!
6 More gunz. Needz more dakka.

I'm sure most MWO players are Orks

Edited by Wolfways, 21 June 2014 - 09:20 AM.

[Sandpit]

Screech, on 21 June 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Sadly Russ is right on this one. People don't like larger maps. Caustic is easily the worse map but people complain 10x more about TT and Alpine. It is a symptom of 60-70% of the population driving heavies or assaults.

the responses to this thread would say otherwise

again, nobody here has said no more smaller maps, just that we want larger maps as well.

Wolfways, on 21 June 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

[/list]Am i the only one who read that as?:

1 Stik together ladz.
2 Let's get to da fightin'.
3 Follow da Warboss!
4 Red wunz go fasta!
5 Stop messin' about an' get in da fight!
6 More gunz. Needz more dakka.

I'm sure most MWO players are Orks

yes and no

I think what he's really getting at is the repetitive nature. Those are the ONLY tactics used as opposed to being one of the tactics and strategies.

[Scratx]

How about we get a normalization pass on the map sizes for Forest Colony, Frozen City and River City?

Seriously, 12v12 on them is... yeah.

Or give us 8v8 matches on those smaller maps, and wait for it... funnel newbies to play on those maps preferentially. This would help them get some experience under their belt on the easier to understand and memorize maps.

But I might just be crossing into off-topic here so I'll stop here.

[Wolfways]

Sandpit, on 21 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

yes and no

I think what he's really getting at is the repetitive nature. Those are the ONLY tactics used as opposed to being one of the tactics and strategies.

Yeah i get that. My point is that when i read it it just screamed "Ork!". Run towards the enemy and beat each other to death. Last one standing is the winner. Next fight do it again.

[Sandpit]

Scratx, on 21 June 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

How about we get a normalization pass on the map sizes for Forest Colony, Frozen City and River City?

Seriously, 12v12 on them is... yeah.

Or give us 8v8 matches on those smaller maps, and wait for it... funnel newbies to play on those maps preferentially. This would help them get some experience under their belt on the easier to understand and memorize maps.

But I might just be crossing into off-topic here so I'll stop here.

now THAT is a pretty cool idea to me actually.

Use 8v8 and smaller maps for a cadet queue to help new players get their feet wet with the game. Smaller scale is always easier to handle when learning something new. It's easier to learn in my opinion.

Still, I want bigger maps as well as small. I want medium as well. I want more variety period. It just seems like Russ and co. get these ideas in their heads like "players don't want this" yet here we are 11 pages into this thread and it's becoming quite apparent that the majority responding here DO want bigger maps.

Again, this is about variety for me, not exclusion. You don't have to exclude small and medium size maps just to include bigger maps as well

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Not a single map in this game is 'good.' They range from 'utter garbage' like Canyon to 'meh' like Tourmaline.

River and Frozen were 'okay' until 12v12.

I want better maps. MWLL maps were very good and varied enough to make all playstyles viable. MWO maps are a wash in that regard.

[Graugger]

They aren't interested in making new maps cause they can't figure out how to sell them for MC atm. Unless they make it so you have to have a premium account to get it?

[GreyGriffin]

Graugger, on 21 June 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

They aren't interested in making new maps cause they can't figure out how to sell them for MC atm. Unless they make it so you have to have a premium account to get it?

in b4 premium account access to new maps only.

[LordKnightFandragon]

ninjitsu, on 20 June 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Well, Alpine Peaks is super boring, so I don't think bigger is better.

Alpine is boring cuz its essentially one big mountain and open area around it. Maps are also boring cuz the only thing to find and kill is the other team. If big ass maps like Alpine had a purpose, like making use of the like 3 bases I see on it, it would be alot more fun.

I love bigger maps. Gives more wiggle room in moving around and NOT having 5 guns staring you in the face everywhere you go.

Every map in game now, you poke around a corner and there is sure to be someone looking there. Ya dont dare try to move cuz someone will be shooting you.

[Exilyth]

If there was a lance on lance (4 vs 4) gamemode on smaller subsections of the existing maps, with a shorter match time limit, all the action junkies could go there and have their instant action fun. And while they're out, we could have some serious discussion about improving tactical & strategic gameplay in the 12 vs 12 queue.

Bigger maps would be great, but they would need meaningful objectives and more sight cover than alpine.

Many maps in the mechcommander series had destroyable walls with high health/hitpoints, which provided cover but could be slowly destroyed (or, if JJ were equipped, jumped over). Sending in a JJ equipped mech to capture a door control could turn the tide of battle. Bases also had defense installations like regular and popup turrets... do you ignore them? Take out the linked power generator? Go and try to capture the turret control tower? Or just shoot the turrets to scraps? Lots of tactical choices right there. Ofc, there have been intentional weakpoints too... like a fueltank placed near a wall section, which would level the barrier upon explosion. Add to that sensor towers, minefields, e.t.c...

What would be really nice would be a map like that, but with one base on each side.

[Screech]

Sandpit, on 21 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

the responses to this thread would say otherwise

I am just basing it on what I see in matches. It seems that the majority of complaints are about the larger maps. I do not agree with them but I think they are the majority.

[Reitrix]

Exilyth, on 21 June 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

If there was a lance on lance (4 vs 4) gamemode on smaller subsections of the existing maps, with a shorter match time limit, all the action junkies could go there and have their instant action fun. And while they're out, we could have some serious discussion about improving tactical & strategic gameplay in the 12 vs 12 queue.

Bigger maps would be great, but they would need meaningful objectives and more sight cover than alpine.

Many maps in the mechcommander series had destroyable walls with high health/hitpoints, which provided cover but could be slowly destroyed (or, if JJ were equipped, jumped over). Sending in a JJ equipped mech to capture a door control could turn the tide of battle. Bases also had defense installations like regular and popup turrets... do you ignore them? Take out the linked power generator? Go and try to capture the turret control tower? Or just shoot the turrets to scraps? Lots of tactical choices right there. Ofc, there have been intentional weakpoints too... like a fueltank placed near a wall section, which would level the barrier upon explosion. Add to that sensor towers, minefields, e.t.c...

What would be really nice would be a map like that, but with one base on each side.

I'd love to see secondary objectives in maps, different per map, that could give you a good advantage by taking/holding them.
If you could send Lights to knock out the Turret Control System so your Assaults could storm their base while they were turtling, that'd be cool. But even more fun if your Lights could have the option of destroying it or capturing that TCS in order to turn their turrets back on them.

I'd love to see Communication Towers on the map that enabled/disabled shared targeting depending on whether or not you controlled it in certain areas.
You could also tie it into the Battlemap, needing to take those Towers in order to build the Map.

A problem with secondary objectives though is that for as long as "Kill them all" is a win condition, and it is faster/easier to do that, that is what people will gravitate towards.
Another problem is game time. At 15 minutes per match, There is very little window to complete secondary and tertiary objectives before simply running out of time.
So you would need not only bigger maps and the assets in place for those objectives, but also extensions to the timer to allow you to fulfill those objectives.
Problem with that? There are already players neurotic enough to complain about having to wait a few minutes to unlock a dead 'Mech that is currently ingame.

Such a mode/system would need to be totally separate to the current modes we play now. I'm one who would support hour long campaign type missions with multiple/dynamic objectives.
But i can't imagine the whole playerbase would get behind that.

[Reza Malin]

Roland, on 20 June 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

We played hour long battles in Mechwarrior 4 that would have been impossible with maps that were as small as MWO's.

Until you have dramatically bigger maps, scouts will essentially be useless.

In mechwarrior 4, our scouts actually scouted.. you needed them to find the enemy.

I would love this to be the case here, i would actually have a reason to use lights then.

I am definitely in favour of bigger maps. Its tiresome when the game starts and all the drones go to the exact same spots. There are other ways to play each map but no one considers it because half the players have the 'gogogogo' attitude.

I feel larger maps would change this as well as bring some further plus points such as what Roland said about actually requiring scouts and more tactical thinking.

Someone did mention perhaps having larger maps for a new game mode, possibly involving respawns. That might be good too, and would also help to remove that yellow streak a lot of players seem to have at the moment when it comes to a stand up fight.

Bottom line, i vote YES for bigger maps! Though i would just love a couple of new maps of anything right now to be honest!

Edited by Fade Akira, 21 June 2014 - 11:23 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Wolfways, on 21 June 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

Yeah i get that. My point is that when i read it it just screamed "Ork!". Run towards the enemy and beat each other to death. Last one standing is the winner. Next fight do it again.

Isnt that what this game is?

I mean, conquest is a pretty clear indication of it.

The team that tries to cap gets mugged in little 2 or 3 mech pockets by the one big ass zerg of 12. Then as the cappers try to move up to support they just get picked apart.

I just turn off conquest from my MM options, I seriously hate that mode. Then to boot it takes a year and a half to capture one base.

[Wolfways]

LordKnightFandragon, on 21 June 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Isnt that what this game is?

I mean, conquest is a pretty clear indication of it.

The team that tries to cap gets mugged in little 2 or 3 mech pockets by the one big ass zerg of 12. Then as the cappers try to move up to support they just get picked apart.

I just turn off conquest from my MM options, I seriously hate that mode. Then to boot it takes a year and a half to capture one base.

It's not like that in my Conquest games. Usually one lance will go to the closest cap and fight an enemy lance or two, while the other two lances join up and go for another cap. I always seem to be in the lance that goes off by itself

[LordKnightFandragon]

Wolfways, on 21 June 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

[/list]Am i the only one who read that as?:

1 Stik together ladz.
2 Let's get to da fightin'.
3 Follow da Warboss!
4 Red wunz go fasta!
5 Stop messin' about an' get in da fight!
6 More gunz. Needz more dakka.

I'm sure most MWO players are Orks

If only they were that smart.

We start as a blob then 1 by one someone feels the need to "Scout" the next ridge...all alone. He gets face planted by 6. Then another guy feels the need to "go help his buddy" so he goes off on his own and he gets rolled. Then another and another. So, the game is now 0-4. The remaining 8 start to fire back, they causes some damage, but are split up and stuff, so the 12 just roll the split up, isolated 8, 2 mechs at a time. and it ends in a 0-12 wipe.

When both blobs stick together it atleast then becomes a 7-12 loss.

[Rebas Kradd]

LordKnightFandragon, on 21 June 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

If only they were that smart.

We start as a blob then 1 by one someone feels the need to "Scout" the next ridge...all alone. He gets face planted by 6.

That sounds like clumsy scouting. If you're in a heavy, or you stand on top of the ridge forever, or you forget your ECM, then you're gonna get pasted. But that's not a knock against role warfare, that's just people giving it a bad name.

[Nathan Foxbane]

I believe alpine was a good start. Not the greatest map, but there is some potential there. I would like to see more large maps with very mixed terrain and something that makes people think before they grab the biggest 'Mech they can get their hands on. I have noticed on the larger maps ECM will hide a position, but on any of the larger maps without good scouting by the other team it is much easier to launch surprise attacks without it.