31 replies to this topic

[Lordred]

Updated with new chart


Please, let me explain before you all get angry at me, I will be making comparisons to table top, but please, bare with me.


IS Mechs are currently able to equip tons of engines that they otherwise would not be able to if we had a more true to the core of TT rule set. While engine size and movement was limited to a hex grid value and the lowest max speed you could have was 2 hexs (60m in 10 seconds, or 21.6km/h)

When it came to building custom mechs you had only so much weight you could work with, if you were trying to fit a very high payload, you had to greatly sacrifice speed to achieve this, as it stands in MWO you can simply make half that sacrifice.

We decided to adhere to TT for the clans, where you have fixed Endo and Fero hard points, and a fixed engine, so perhaps we should tighten the leash on the IS mechs just a little, this coin goes both ways, we would need to raise the speed cap on a few mechs to allow them to install a larger engine.

Remember, the max engine size is 400.


Now for the boring tech stuff.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Light Mechs:
20 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 20 = 21.6km/h, 40 = 32.4km/h, 60 = 54.0km/h, 80 = 64.8km/h, 100 = 84.6km/h, 120 = 97.2km/h, 140 = 118.8km/h, 160 = 129.6km/h, 180 = 151.2km/h, 200 = 162.0km/h, 220 = 183.6km/h, 240 = 194.4km/h

25 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 25 = 21.6km/h, 50 = 32.4km/h, 75 = 54.0km/h, 100 = 64.8km/h, 125 = 84.6km/h, 150 = 97.2km/h, 175 = 118.8km/h, 200 = 129.6km/h, 225 = 151.2km/h, 250 = 162.0km/h, 275 = 183.6km/h

30 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 30 = 21.6km/h, 60 = 32.4km/h, 90 = 54.0km/h, 120 = 64.8km/h, 150 = 84.6km/h, 180 = 97.2km/h, 210 = 118.8km/h, 240 = 129.6km/h, 270 = 151.2km/h, 300 = 162.0km/h, 330 = 183.6km/h

35 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 20 = 21.6km/h, 70 = 32.4km/h, 105 = 54.0km/h, 140 = 64.8km/h, 175 = 84.6km/h, 210 = 97.2km/h, 245 = 118.8km/h, 280 = 129.6km/h, 315 = 151.2km/h, 350 = 162.0km/h, 375 = 183.6km/h

Medium Mechs:
40 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 40 = 21.6km/h, 80 = 32.4km/h, 120 = 54.0km/h, 160 = 64.8km/h, 200 = 84.6km/h, 240 = 97.2km/h, 280 = 118.8km/h, 320 = 129.6km/h, 360 = 151.2km/h, 400 = 162.0km/h.

45 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 45 = 21.6km/h, 90 = 32.4km/h, 135 = 54.0km/h, 180 = 64.8km/h, 225 = 84.6km/h, 270 = 97.2km/h, 315 = 118.8km/h, 360 = 129.6km/h

50 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 50 = 21.6km/h, 100 = 32.4km/h, 150 = 54.0km/h, 200 = 64.8km/h, 250 = 84.6km/h, 300 = 97.2km/h, 350 = 118.8km/h, 400 = 129.6km/h.

55 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 55 = 21.6km/h, 110 = 32.4km/h, 165 = 54.0km/h, 220 = 64.8km/h, 275 = 84.6km/h, 330 = 97.2km/h, 385 = 118.8km/h.

Heavy Mechs:
60 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 60 = 21.6km/h, 120 = 32.4km/h, 180 = 54.0km/h, 240 = 64.8km/h, 300 = 84.6km/h, 360 = 97.2km/h.

65 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 65 = 21.6km/h, 130 = 32.4km/h, 195 = 54.0km/h, 260 = 64.8km/h, 325 = 84.6km/h, 390 = 97.2km/h.

70 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 70 = 21.6km/h, 140 = 32.4km/h, 210 = 54.0km/h, 280 = 64.8km/h, 350 = 84.6km/h.

75 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 75 = 21.6km/h, 150 = 32.4km/h, 225 = 54.0km/h, 300 = 64.8km/h, 375 = 84.6km/h.

Assault Mechs:
80 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 80 = 21.6km/h, 160 = 32.4km/h, 240 = 54.0km/h, 320 = 64.8km/h, 400 = 84.6km/h.

85 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 85 = 21.6km/h, 170 = 32.4km/h, 255 = 54.0km/h, 340 = 64.8km/h.

90 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 90 = 21.6km/h, 180 = 32.4km/h, 270 = 54.0km/h, 360 = 64.8km/h.

95 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 95 = 21.6km/h, 190 = 32.4km/h, 285 = 54.0km/h, 380 = 64.8km/h.

100 ton Mechs, Engine / Speed:
Fusion 100 = 21.6km/h, 200 = 32.4km/h, 300 = 54.0km/h, 400 = 64.8km/h.

Just a thought, thanks for reading.

Edited by Lordred, 21 June 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[gilliam]

The reason you can only fit certain engine sizes in the TT is because each engine rating results in a different speed (or rather engine rating is calculated from the desired speed) and you can't have fractional MP. Since we have no such restriction to move in exact 3 m/s increments there is no real reason to restrict ratings.

Edited by gilliam, 20 June 2014 - 02:55 PM.

[Lordred]

gilliam, on 20 June 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

The reason you can only fit certain engine sizes in the TT is because each engine rating results in a different speed (or rather engine rating is calculated from the desired speed) and you can't have fractional MP. Since we have no such restriction to move in exact 3 m/s increments there is no real reason to restrict ratings.

I understand that reason, and respect it.

[Koniving]

gilliam, on 20 June 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

The reason you can only fit certain engine sizes in the TT is because each engine rating results in a different speed (or rather engine rating is calculated from the desired speed) and you can't have fractional MP. Since we have no such restriction to move in exact 3 m/s increments there is no real reason to restrict ratings.

Many are aware. But it'd also make a big difference in loadouts. Many of the meta builds rely on aloof engines or certain sizes that are faster than other sizes but weigh exactly the same. Others tend to be at a certain range that wouldn't otherwise be available to them as it's either too big or too small.

Right now it's a bit unrealistic to have so many options, too. We're in a age where most of the technology is gone or lost, with only a bunch recently restored. To have every engine magically fit every mech is pretty proposterous, especially when only certain brand engines, certain ratings, etc. would fit inside of a mech. For example the Vlar 300 for the Atlas is an engine that is supposed to take up more than 80% of the pelvis space, it obviously wouldn't be ideal for a Jenner.

One example might be the Victor. At 80 tons the engine options likely to be used are the LTV 160, Pitban 240, Pitban 320 or the LTV 400. This also means a boost for the Awesome, because 300 isn't even an option.

Of course more than just those could be allowed, like a max cap engine for example. Say 380 for the Awesome, 340 for the Victor or what-have-you. You notice the brands also changed.

We go to 75 tons, and the brands are GM, Vlar, Vox. For 70 tons, GM, Vox, Leenax, Magna. For 65 tons, Nissan, Magna, Vox. But not the same sizes as those for the 70 tons or the 75 tons; even when the same sizes are available the brand names changed.

For 30 tons we get into Hermes and Dav as well for brand names.

In the Victor's case, if it wants a 320 it'd have to pack its meta rig very light on heatsinks and ammo, and might not be able to carry its jumpjets. Or with the 240, it'd be too slow to travel much so it'll have trouble relocating after it poptarts.

I believe this would make a lot of changes in meta, as well as be slightly restrictive to loadouts to prevent exploitations that lead to unnecessary ghost heat additions and clauses.

Not to mention some mechs would benefit from this.

[gilliam]

Well I had originally hoped there would be some restriction on massive changes to a mech (added refit costs and/or can't use it for a number of games, etc.). Changing structure or engines or upgrading to double heatsinks requires the mech to visit a factory (presumably because it requires at least partially disassembling the mech), and even changing the armor and number of heatsinks or the jumpjects requires a good maintenance facility, but that ship has sailed.

I guess I can see some restriction on engine ratings, but I don't see a good reason to restrict it to just tt ratings, and I have even seen suggestions for house rules to fit engines for fractional MP ratings to bump the run speed up in certain areas (being able to fit a 6/10 for instance rather than having to go 6/9 or 7/11). The tt rules may be a baseline but they don't have to be a complete restriction. Also to my knowledge a lot of engines of a brand come in a majority of ratings, and manufacturer is just fluff anyways.

I should note that with clan mechs the adherance to rules is a BIT loose, in MWO omnis can change the amount of armor for instance.

tl;dr restrictions on engines may not be a bad idea, but it doesn't necessarily have to follow exactly the allowable ratings from Battletech.

[Lordred]

gilliam, on 20 June 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

tl;dr restrictions on engines may not be a bad idea, but it doesn't necessarily have to follow exactly the allowable ratings from Battletech.

Its mostly an idea to make choosing an engine more of an impact on how you plan to use the mech, Having to make a tough choice between all big weapons, or perhaps mixing your build up a little and using a combo of different weapons.

Edited by Lordred, 20 June 2014 - 05:24 PM.

[Barkem Squirrel]

When I started playing just after closed beta, I was surprised at the range of engines we could add. What was expected was maybe the weight of the mech up in down based on the engine it came with.

So a 55 ton mech with a 275 could add up to a 330 and go 6/9 or drop to a 220 and go 4/6
a 35 ton mech with a 245 could add up to a 280 and go 8/12 or drop to a 210 and go 6/9
a 35 ton mech with a 175 could add up to a 210 and go 6/9 or drop to a 140 and go 4/6
a 65 ton mech with a 260 could add up to a 325 and go 5/8 or drop to a 195 and go 3/5
a 70 ton mech with a 280 could add up to a 350 and go 5/8 or drop to a 210 and go 3/5
a 85 ton mech with a 255 could add up to a 340 and go 4/6 or drop to a 170 and go 2/3 (talk about a slow stalker)
a 85 ton mech with a 340 could add up to a 400 and go almost 5/8 or drop to a 255 and go 3/5
a 20 ton mech with a 160 could add up to a 180 and go 9/13 or drop to a 140 and go 7/11

This would have made a greater variation to the different mech chassis and weight classes. Larger mech would need to make a trade, more speed at the cost of weapons. Lights would have been slowed down, but have more weight for weapons. Think, jenners in the 120s and ravens in the 100's. No medium mechs going over 100 until speed tweak. Some light assaults going 80.

Here is a good question: Are the legs designed for a greater load while running? Gives new meaning to legging yourself. Or a way around this would be to increase the internal structure of the legs to take increased stress from moving faster than the mech is designed for.

When you look at clan mechs, what speed sticks out in your head for heavies and some mediums, 5/8. right now, most IS mediums move 80 or faster, IS heavies move in the 70's. Assaults need to move 60, most IS lights move 130- 150. The IS mechs are more mobile than the Clans. The one issue is if IS mechs were limited to one engine like the clans, they would get steamrolled almost every time.




Then again, I was expecting 10 heatsinks in all engines also.

[Koniving]

I got sick a bit earlier, took a pain pill that was a prescription to someone else and yeah it didn't cooperate with me at all.

But while I was laying down I got to thinking.. I've had an armor concept which of course had plans to overhaul engine limits (not restrict engines but just reduce how much higher they could be to maybe 6 ratings above stock. So if 255 is the stock, then 260, 265, 270, 275, 280, 285 would be its new max. If 320 stock then 325, 330, 335, 340, 345, 350 would be the new max).

The reason for this is because of some little b.s. going on, where if the mech starts with a 245 engine (Jenner) and has a stock speed of 113.4 (these are without speed tweak), it tops out at 300 with 138.9 kph where Firestarter and Raven 3-L starts with 210 (97.2) but tops out at 295 at 136.5 kph without skills.
At stock speeds of 97 and 113.4 (difference in speed of 16.2 greater speed for Jenner), in the end they have a difference in speed of 2 kph...
I see a problem there. Especially in cases that make it worse. Locust, stock speed 129, but tops out at 153. Commando, starts 97, tops out 155... Something just isn't right. Cicada, by all rights should be as fast as a Locust and Spider (129 stock speed), tops out 133.7 kph because it's "leet." That's not even funny. That... that's just sad.

Anyway, rambling and further armor explanation.

Spoiler

So the idea as part of the armor overhaul was an engine overhaul that would put in more standardized limits. First by lowering the limits (since the armor would use stock to determine armor, preserving armor differentials. Say if an Atlas D has 480 points of armor higher than most Locusts and a Jenner D at stock; then at maximum armor that difference should still be there, so that an Atlas D is still intimidating. Even though the Jenner and Locust are now buffed to 96 points more armor [as everything soon is] for its new max.

Where currently the armor, the armor difference between said mechs is 480 at stock. But when the Jenner and Atlas is maxed, that difference is 276....and you wonder why Atlases seem to be made of paper? When the Locust and Atlas is maxed, the difference is 476, so the Locust feels like paper.

But if the difference is always 480, then the Locust and Jenner D feel like they can compete with each other. What would then be the difference? Under the armor, the Jenner will live considerably longer with slightly more structure health than armor. (Locust: 75 structure health. Jenner, 125). Jenner has jumpjets, as well as high armored versions (at the cost of hardpoints). In comparison, the Locust has significantly greater speed at stock that translates to equally greater speed at max. (Not to mention 128 armor stock + 96 = 224 standard max armor. Said Atlas would have 704, though. 704 - 224 = 480; stock armor level difference preserved; the feeling is preserved.)

So while awesome, Lordred's idea here brings up another point and I see Gilliam had a similar idea.

What if we used the tabletop increments as a base. Then, for certain variants that need it, allow other increments.

Specifically I was thinking of the problem I had with my armor concept. Since it uses stock everything to determine everything, the idea naturally balances out most issues. For example most meta mechs are automatically armor nerfed because meta mechs had great weapons at the sacrifice of armor when stock. Cataprhact 3D for example, lowest armor of the Cataphracts. And this makes good sense. There's a reason it's currently meta, it's because it has all the benefits of the other Cataphracts plus jumpjets plus better hardpoints. All those things came at the sacrifice of armor which MWO doesn't reflect.

There was another thing though, in TT the Cataphract 1X is also a meta mech, as large lasers are effectively superior to ballistics in TT and lore. In MWO unless you've got a Clan mech, lasers being superior is a load of crap especially with ghost heat. The lasers came with a sacrifice in armor to stack in the heatsinks.

But the Cataphracts 3D and 1X had the same engine size, except the 3D had an XL.. It cheated its way through the system. No speed penalties, no this, no that. Bringing me to what I was thinking of while laying in bed sick. What if the 1X got more intervals or engine options? Say without having to fit in the ballistics or jumpjets, it got more options and thus less limitations.

For example the 3D in TT has 210, 280, and 350 for choices. It appears the intervals are 70 (70, 140, 210, 280, 350)
By extension in TT the 1X would have the same choices. but what if the Cataphract 1x got intervals of 70/2 = 35.

So 35, 70, 105, 140, 175, 210, 245, 280, 315, 350.

With ballistics literally being the most powerful thing you can bring, keep them on the TT limits. This means sacrifices of ammo or heatsinks in order to have speed. This is good. It's reward (ballistic overpoweredness) versus risk (go slow, have plenty of ammo or go fast and sacrifice something such as the size of the AC or the ammo count or the heatsinks). Meanwhile highly energy focused variants could get more options.

This would greatly help the Awesome and energy-focused mechs even without the armor concept.
If the Victor has intervals of 80. 80, 160, 240, 320, 400..
Then as another 80 tonner, the Awesome by default would have those. But the energy focused builds like the 8Q, perhaps allow intervals of 40. 40, 80, 120, 160, 200, 240, 280, 320, 360, 400.
This gives the Awesome(s) and perhaps the Victor K (for its energy-strong variant) more options than the others, which can increase their appeal when before they were overlooked as inferior in every way.

Just food for thought.

Edited by Koniving, 22 July 2014 - 08:35 AM.

[Sable Phoenix]

This is an excellent way to combat the meta (which really was killing the game before the Clans came along, Clan mechs and weapons are the best thing to ever happen to this game) as well as giving each variant more, well, variation. Currently the only thing that differentiates variants is hardpoints, and this means that there are certain variants that are literally never used because their hardpoint layout is just plain inferior (from a meta perspective). If those "inferior" mechs were inherently more flexible, it would make people think a lot harder about what to bring and why.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

I agree that fixing the engines in IS mechs would probably completely obsolete them for many players in the face of the Clans. However, I think sticking to the TT multiples-of-mech-tonnage for engine ratings (or easy fractions thereof, as in Kon's post regarding the CTF above) would help add a little variety in what we see. If not in chassis, at least variants.

We can but hope, I suppose.

[Lordred]

Updated with new chart.

[Lordred]

Seems rather split so far.

[ATM87]

I agree with this with one requirement; PGI needs to fix the problem with "required" heatsinks taking up weight when you have an engine smaller than 250. Right now, if you equip a smaller engine than a 250, you have to install up to the required 10 heat sinks, which is fine, but it eats up tonnage on a mech that need all the weight they can get. In tabletop, those heatsinks take up internal space but don't weigh anything extra.

As the pilot of an "urbanmech" spider, it's frustrating that I'm paying a 6 ton "tax" to be slow as molasses.

[Just wanna play]

lol so would me stalker with a std 100 be one of the "aloof impossible" engine builds?

[ChapeL]

While I agree with the intent of the OP, I'm afraid Pandora's box can't be closed anymore.

[Lordred]

Bull Frog, on 27 June 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

While I agree with the intent of the OP, I'm afraid Pandora's box can't be closed anymore.

You are likely correct.

[Malleus011]

I'm for engine restrictions, probably more restrictive than the general community would be happy with.

A more sharply limited max would be fine, but I'd allow most IS 'mechs to drop engine sizes fairly freely; it's much easier to put a 10 ton fusion reactor in a 14 ton space than an 18 ton fusion reaction in a 14 ton space. This would allow some overpowered 'mechs (Banshee, Battlemaster, Quickdraw, just to pick three) to be modified more heavily at the cost of very valuable speed.

Limited max engine size (even to the point of saying that most 'mechs simply can't carry an engine larger than the stock one) would do a lot to balance out the IS 'mechs. Though I'm not sure how that would affect their balance versus the Clans.

[Lordred]

I have spent the past week playing useing the restricted table. I recomend it for anyone worried about it gimping IS mechs. If anything I think I have crafted some of my finest builds thus far.

Edited by Lordred, 27 June 2014 - 03:09 PM.

[gtyida]

my say is only when is mech equips clan engine if not is not feasible...

[GenghisJr]

One of the most enjoyable aspects of the game is the customization of mechs, different engine sizes are crucial to this. I should be able to sacrifice payload and armour for a higher speed just like a race car sacrifices its interior for speed.
I have no knowledge of the TT game, Lore or anything before this but a selling feature of this game was being able to experiment with different builds and this keeps the game fresh and keeps me, and others I expect, playing.
The game has obviously evolved from both the TT and Lore but these ancestors did not have to take into account the playing style of this game. If people want all the mechs to be the same there is always the original TT game where all the pieces were the same, its called Chess and its that popular it has lasted thousands of years.