31 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

For a nice long discussion on this topic that picked up more steam than mine, see http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

During a discussion, we were talking about how CW (Faction queue) will be implemented, and I feel a hard line between Clans and IS is a horrible way to do it. Instead, it should be a line drawn between EVERY faction, and the lines should be as malleable as the borders. This means that, if my unit wants to "unlock" the Dragon, but is a Marik unit, we have three ways to do so:

• Pay MC through the "Black Market". This would mean an instant unlock, but repair/rearm would also cost MC until one of the following other methods was accomplished.
  
• Gotta Collect Em All! This is the Pokemon approach to unlocking cross-faction equipment, where you earn salvage for defeating particular mechs in particular ways. This is a random dispersal, much like "loot" in other games, and adds that component to your inventory OR unlocks it if you have not already unlocked that chassis for use in CW. While IS mechs don't use Omnipods, the same method can be used by section, but only for the unlock. Once you collect all 8 sections, the mech chassis is unlocked in stock form, minus equipment. This can be tracked just like mech skills, but with a paper doll showing which parts are (un)locked. You are only eligible to unlock a component that meets the following criteria:
  
  • Must win match.
    
  • Component must not be destroyed.
• ​Planetary Ownage. Hold the planet the mech/component is manufactured on for a minimum of (7) days. Once this initial time has been met, you can then purchase (x) number of components/parts per day - such as a Dragon Left Arm, Gauss Rifle or 1 ton of LRM ammo - where (x) can be a fraction (resulting in only one being purchased every 5-6 days, for instance).

Repair/rearm. This is pivotal to a working CW. Making it dependent on planetary control or through salvage makes every fight and planet important. You can avoid this restriction through the use of MC, giving a method for PGI to make money through micro transactions as well as providing a method for every player to get any mech they desire if they are willing to pay for it. While MC purchases are currently available already, extending the MC store to include repair/rearm, as well as individual component purchase, also gives additional money flow opportunities without being "pay2win".

Salvage, on the other hand, allows those that do not have real money funds available to support the game through lots and lots of matches and a semi-random loot process. It is semi-random because you must disable the mech somehow to earn the salvage (conquest/assault wins would only get salvage off of mechs that were disabled before the end of match, for example), but whether you do it through a headshot, torso destruction or legging determines what salvage is possible. This makes it a mini-game, as well, as you actually have a reason for going after certain mechs in certain ways to earn a chance at the specific salvage you are trying to get.

Edit for further clarification:
Salvage would be tied to the achievement system, with a "pretty" front end screen in the mech lab.

Essentially, there would be a meta-achievement for each chassis variant, composed of individual achievements for each component in a particular section (RT, for instance). Earning salvage in a CW match, which is not a private match that you can just coordinate and farm, would give you an achievement for that particular component.

On the front end, you would have a mech selector just like the current mechlab, but it would be for CW unlocks. Just like trial mechs, any mech that is "open" for your particular faction would be unlocked already, but anything that is not available to your faction would be greyed out to begin with. As you earn achievements for that chassis variant, the unlocked sections of the variant light up to give you a visual of what you have achieved. Once the entire mech is unlocked, you earn the meta-achievement and are then free to use the mech in CW (as long as you have purchased it, of course).

If it helps, think of this like the current pilot skills, where you unlock each one, and then move on to the next tier after they are all unlocked.

Repair/Rearm would still be considered "out-of-faction", and therefore far more expensive than in-faction mechs, but it at least gives you the opportunity to pilot the mech you want without having to make a bunch of separate accounts or a lot of faction hopping.

So many possibilities with a system like this...

Thoughts?

Edited by Cimarb, 30 July 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

on the whole I like the concept but there are a few problems I can see,

It seems like you are suggesting that if a player purchases a mech which only has 1 varient available for their faction they would need to headshot/double leg one of those mechs to salvage it or pay MC to buy it from the black market, this is fine for Comunity Warfare but what about PUGs, should everyone automaticaly be pulled into CW, what about Lone Wolves, would they even be able to purchase anything as an unalligned player?

what about us veterans who already have a large stock of mechs, would we have to unlock them to be able to use them in CW? e.g. I am a member of a Davion alligned Merc corp, and my favorate mechs are the Jenner (Kurita produced), and the Cicada (Liao produced), so to keep playing them I would need to keep headshotting enemies of the same model (to get as many intact parts as possible) or paying MC to maintain spare parts for those mechs

[Prawfutt]

Love the idea. And I would really like to see salvage and repair/rearm back in the game. HOWEVER. What your idea does not take into account is the reason repair/rearm was taken out in the first place.

Lets pretend for a moment. I am a fresh new player. My first 25 matches get me tons of cbills (thanks cadet bonus) and i save them all up to buy a shiny new Atlas. Ouch now I only have (100,000) cbills left, oh well its ok because I make about 750,000 per match (thanks cadet bonus).

Next match (#26) my atlas is shredded, ammo exploded, only piece remaining was my cockpit "eye" match was a loss, earned 50,000 cbills (where did you go cadet bonus!!!) repair/rearm cost in the millions. (we will say 1mil just to be nice)

Now, with your solutions you can pay MC to repair the mech, but this is a free to play game, I am new to the game and just got that mech! and it died way to easily to a mech that I never even saw!
<------ *cough*
I dont want to spend money on a game that I am not even really into yet!! GG close I quit.

Another solution would be to jump into another mech (noob me does not have one yet though) or trial mechs to grind the money needed to fix my Atlas. But say I as a complete noob go on a string of losses and average 50,000 cbills per match. if my atlas repair is 1mil that means i have to play around 20 matches to repair my atlas just to play him again. And if a fully destroyed atlas is LESS than 1mil to repair then something is very wrong. Should it take 20 matches just to get the mech that i own operational again?!?! GG close I quit.

Again OP I would LOVE to see a salvage/repair/rearm system in the game. I even posted my idea for it as well, however I was unable to come up with ways to work around the Low income/ low available cbills / mech destroyed problem that initially removed repair/rearm. If you have a valid workable solution to the problem I would love to hear it and I believe PGI would as well because they may be as stumped as the rest of us.

Edited by Prawfut Bludskin, 23 June 2014 - 07:39 AM.

[Cimarb]

Rogue Jedi, on 23 June 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

on the whole I like the concept but there are a few problems I can see,

It seems like you are suggesting that if a player purchases a mech which only has 1 varient available for their faction they would need to headshot/double leg one of those mechs to salvage it or pay MC to buy it from the black market, this is fine for Comunity Warfare but what about PUGs, should everyone automaticaly be pulled into CW, what about Lone Wolves, would they even be able to purchase anything as an unalligned player?

what about us veterans who already have a large stock of mechs, would we have to unlock them to be able to use them in CW? e.g. I am a member of a Davion alligned Merc corp, and my favorate mechs are the Jenner (Kurita produced), and the Cicada (Liao produced), so to keep playing them I would need to keep headshotting enemies of the same model (to get as many intact parts as possible) or paying MC to maintain spare parts for those mechs

It would all be based upon some sort of balance, so specifics are obviously not what I am worried about. That being said, the idea is to give a reason for planetary control and salvage (i.e. CW) while also giving PGI a monetary stream for those that do not have the time to unlock mechs for use in CW.

As it currently looks, we will be locked out of all non-faction mechs for use in CW. I am simply trying to kill two birds with one stone by giving a means to unlock those mechs over time while giving a purpose to CW as a whole. Hopefully PGI is already working on a system such as this, but if you don't offer the idea, you can't expect anyone to have it themselves.

The goal, though, is to make salvage, manufacturers and planetary control MEAN something. For those of us with 50+ mechs (lost count after I ordered the Clan package), CW will mean nothing if we don't have repair/rearm, as we already own everything we want. If new mechs are so expensive that we can't afford them, imagine how poor the new player experience will be.

Prawfut Bludskin, on 23 June 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Love the idea. And I would really like to see salvage and repair/rearm back in the game. HOWEVER. What your idea does not take into account is the reason repair/rearm was taken out in the first place.

Lets pretend for a moment. I am a fresh new player. My first 25 matches get me tons of cbills (thanks cadet bonus) and i save them all up to buy a shiny new Atlas. Ouch now I only have (100,000) cbills left, oh well its ok because I make about 750,000 per match (thanks cadet bonus).

Next match (#26) my atlas is shredded, ammo exploded, only piece remaining was my cockpit &quot;eye&quot; match was a loss, earned 50,000 cbills (where did you go cadet bonus!!!) repair/rearm cost in the millions. (we will say 1mil just to be nice)

Now, with your solutions you can pay MC to repair the mech, but this is a free to play game, I am new to the game and just got that mech!!! i dont want to spend money on a game that I am not even really into yet!! GG close I quit.

Another solution would be to jump into another mech (noob me does not have one yet though) or trial mechs to grind the money needed to fix my Atlas. But say I as a complete noob go on a string of losses and average 50,000 cbills per match. if my atlas repair is 1mil that means i have to play around 20 matches to repair my atlas just to play him again. And if a fully destroyed atlas is LESS than 1mil to repair then something is very wrong. Should it take 20 matches just to get the mech that i own operational again?!?! GG close I quit.

Again OP I would LOVE to see a salvage/repair/rearm system in the game. I even posted my idea for it as well, however I was unable to come up with ways to work around the Low income/ low available cbills / mech destroyed problem that initially removed repair/rearm. If you have a valid workable solution to the problem I would love to hear it and I believe PGI would as well because they may be as stumped as the rest of us.

Note that this is JUST for CW. All of your mechs are unlocked for public and private matches. The separation between the two may be an issue that needs to be addressed, but I don't think it would be a difficult one. You can still "farm" money in public matches as you do now, and whether R&R is implemented in public matches doesn't really mean much to me except for possible loop holes that can be exploited.

As I mentioned, all of this will need balancing, I agree.

As a mercenary, I expect to see a highly detailed contract and summary of costs/expenses and earnings after every match (or contract completion if it covers multiple matches), including any salvage that was earned. Whether this is by lance, by company, or by unit, I have no idea as I don't know how any of that will be set up, but it is imperative that it be detailed out and show us what is happening with the cash flow. That way, even if we only collect 50,000 cbills in cash, we can also see that we got ten tons of ammo, a Gauss rifle and a Banshee 3E Left Leg unlock, all of which can very well be much more valuable than the actual money earned.

Some universal items, such as armor, could be done as a straight cbill cost. Component destruction, though, would have to be replaced with a new part. If you don't own the manufacturing plant/planet, that cost may be excessive or you may need to replace it with something that you DO have available, thereby making it important to stock up on components even if you don't use them at that time.

All of this is to make an actual economy, which we currently do not have at all. It will make CW thousands of times more interesting.

Note that I believe one of PGIs biggest issues with implementing repair and rearm was that they tried to automate the process too much by just making it a couple line items. I think a full list of what you earned with actual benefits involved in items (rather than just a cbill value), will make an immense difference.

[Prawfutt]

So your work around is a public que that does not use rearm/repair. (IE what we currently have)
This is a workable Idea but maybe not the best idea for several reasons.

1: PGI has stated multiple times that "every match, every mech, every pilot counts in CW" or something similar to that. They WANT everyone participating is CW and I doubt they will make split ques.

2: as you mentioned yourself

Cimarb, on 23 June 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

possible loop holes that can be exploited.

3: What is the purpose of participating in CW for the average player. There are no downsides to the Non-CW que and many many downsides to the CW que. Look at it like in Diablo 3. there is Softcore (dieing is no big deal) and Hardcore mode (dieing is permanant) Yes there are a few very few people who cry HARDCORE FOREVER and Hardcore is more thrilling because of the dangers! but the majority of people play softcore because there is 0 downside.

So if they do split ques why the hell would average joe ever play CW? What incentive other than "because its funner to have consequences for your actions" is offered by CW?

Cimarb, on 23 June 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

All of this is to make an actual economy, which we currently do not have at all. It will make CW thousands of times more interesting.

^ 1 billion times this. I WANT an economy. I WANT to be one of those guys screaming CW and consequences are funner! the problem however is not me but average joe and complete noob who do not care about CW and will see no reason to join CW where bad stuff can happen when there is a que where nothing bad ever happens.

BTW: My Salvage / Economy Idea if you interested

[Cimarb]

Prawfut Bludskin, on 23 June 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

So your work around is a public que that does not use rearm/repair. (IE what we currently have)
This is a workable Idea but maybe not the best idea for several reasons.

1: PGI has stated multiple times that &quot;every match, every mech, every pilot counts in CW&quot; or something similar to that. They WANT everyone participating is CW and I doubt they will make split ques.

2: as you mentioned yourself - "loop holes"

3: What is the purpose of participating in CW for the average player. There are no downsides to the Non-CW que and many many downsides to the CW que. Look at it like in Diablo 3. there is Softcore (dieing is no big deal) and Hardcore mode (dieing is permanant) Yes there are a few very few people who cry HARDCORE FOREVER and Hardcore is more thrilling because of the dangers! but the majority of people play softcore because there is 0 downside.

So if they do split ques why the hell would average joe ever play CW? What incentive other than &quot;because its funner to have consequences for your actions&quot; is offered by CW?

^ 1 billion times this. I WANT an economy. I WANT to be one of those guys screaming CW and consequences are funner! the problem however is not me but average joe and complete noob who do not care about CW and will see no reason to join CW where bad stuff can happen when there is a que where nothing bad ever happens.

BTW: My Salvage / Economy Idea if you interested

As long as they can set the "status" of the mech independently between CW and the rest of the queues, it is a very workable system. You would use the public queue for all of the solo or "casual" stuff, playing just like we do now, and if you wanted to do something "worthwhile", you would switch over to the CW side and start roleplaying. Obviously, I have little to no information about how CW will work, so it's all speculation right now...

1. Yes, they want everyone participating, but they are not going to force everyone to participate. They have said everyone is ABLE to participate, but that just means there is a way for everyone to participate, whether they are casual, hardcore, faction, merc, or lone wolf. It does NOT mean that everyone can participate however they feel like, though, as they have already said that the CW queue is going to be like private matches with PGIs own restrictions - it is actually one of the few recent things they have let slip about it.

2. There are always going to be loop holes, so they just have to do their best to cover them as they are found. Nothing is immune to that, no matter how big or small the company is.

3. The entire benefit of CW is to have a MEANING to playing matches. It is about having a goal beyond the 5-15 minute match.

Please do not compare this game to Diablo 3. That horrendous game should never have been made... Huge fan of 1 and 2, SOOOOOOOO disappointed with that "thing" they called 3.

CW is not about consequences. It is about working towards something long-term and the sense of accomplishment from defending your planet from invasion, working for a week to push through enemy lines and finally assault that planet that manufacturers your beloved Cataphract so you can stop paying for repairs out of your food stipend, or pushing the filthy Spheroids off of Terra itself!

Nothing bad may happen in the public queue, but nothing good happens there either. It is just a means to casually pass the time while earning a bit of money in the process.

[Revis Volek]

I say they implement someones coat tails for the Lone Wolves, New guys, etc. to ride on. If you are NOT allied or a member with a faction, clan, merc unit then you run as an "Independent Merc". This would be a arbitrary title and would have a small RP value to it but almost as if you played half campaign and half CW. You drop in the same battle (solo queue) but you get a screen before and after each match asking you what you would like to do aka what match is this solo new player looking to drop in?

Using the percentage values at the top which displays likelihood of getting a match easily this player can see where he is needed the most but display it to him as "JOBS" or "MISSONS" and the game could recoup the value for him "joining" a side and doing a good or bad job by giving him either a boost to cbill and exp gained like a normal match does already. Or as a little "Misson Accomplished" flag flies at the end it says something to the likes of....

Congratualtions Mechwarrior!

Victory is yours! Aiding the XXX Clan or XXX Merc Corp. on their attack and fulfilling your contract to full has allowed X% of either cbill added, Mechs parts/repairs, ammo available, etc. etc. Also this would allow him Salvage abilities with a better group then himself and possibly keeping the player interested even if his only mastered mech is thoroughly trashed.

This is a super rough draft as this idea came to me not but seconds ago while reading all these posts....but i think it is viable option just needs much more work!

[Revis Volek]

Cimarb, on 23 June 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

.

Please do not compare this game to Diablo 3. That horrendous game should never have been made... Huge fan of 1 and 2, SOOOOOOOO disappointed with that "thing" they called 3.

Not to go off topic but ^^^YES!

Cimarb, on 23 June 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

CW is not about consequences. It is about working towards something long-term and the sense of accomplishment from defending your planet from invasion, working for a week to push through enemy lines and finally assault that planet that manufacturers your beloved Cataphract so you can stop paying for repairs out of your food stipend, or pushing the filthy Spheroids off of Terra itself!

and YES! ^^^

[Cimarb]

I am definitely interested in how they will fit Lone Wolves into CW, but that part doesn't really apply to this topic. I think having it be that easy to switch factions, essentially, would make for a lot of abuse, though.

For salvage, it all depends on who is on the losing side, so I don't mind that aspect of what you explained. You could even give a button on the after-action report to "sell all salvage". Like I said, there is a lot of possibility for PGI here.

[Cimarb]

I see that MC purchases are to as popular as the other components. Anyone that voted against MC purchase, can you elaborate on why you don't like them? I'm always open to modifying that section.

[Geeks On Hugs]

Need an option like:

Yes but open to implementation / I've got ADD / I didn't read the post

[Geeks On Hugs]

"I feel a hard line between Clans and IS is a horrible way to do it. Instead, it should be a line drawn between EVERY faction, and the lines should be as malleable as the borders"

Had not really considered that, but damn you are totally right bro...glad you mentioned it. Probably for the devs it would be technical easier to have a 2 sided IS vs Clan war but in a perfect world it should def be as you suggested. Indeed in the lore over the long run IS factions and Clan faction both drew far more blood from each other than they did from the opposing sphere.

"Gotta Collect Em All! This is the Pokemon approach, where you earn salvage for defeating particular mechs in particular ways. This is a random dispersal, much like "loot" in other games, and adds that component to your inventory. While IS mechs don't use Omnipods, the same method can be used by section, but only for the unlock. Once you collect all 8 sections, the mech chassis is unlocked in stock form, minus equipment. This can be tracked just like mech skills, but with a paper doll showing which parts are (un)locked. You are only eligible to unlock a component that meets the following criteria:
Must win match.
Component must not be destroyed."

I think that needs some refinement to make clear the point of the feature...is this for the ability to use the mech? You can modify only unlocked components? As it stands I think this sounds very bad and I'm not clear on the point or function really.

Without a better choice I initially put yes but different implementation. After reading through your post until I ran out of attention span I feel it's the right choice. You are DEFINITELY correct with the gist of your ideas and MAY be correct with the implementation...so regardless thanks for contributing. Hope this is noticed.

[Cimarb]

Geeks On Hugs, on 23 June 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

"Gotta Collect Em All! This is the Pokemon approach, where you earn salvage for defeating particular mechs in particular ways. This is a random dispersal, much like "loot" in other games, and adds that component to your inventory. While IS mechs don't use Omnipods, the same method can be used by section, but only for the unlock. Once you collect all 8 sections, the mech chassis is unlocked in stock form, minus equipment. This can be tracked just like mech skills, but with a paper doll showing which parts are (un)locked. You are only eligible to unlock a component that meets the following criteria:
Must win match.
Component must not be destroyed."

I think that needs some refinement to make clear the point of the feature...is this for the ability to use the mech? You can modify only unlocked components? As it stands I think this sounds very bad and I'm not clear on the point or function really.

I tried to refine the OP a bit for clarification. Please take a look and see if that makes more sense.

Essentially, salvage is used both to get equipment, as well as unlock equipment that you cannot use otherwise due to faction or lack of planetary control. Say you want to pilot a Victor, but you are Clan Ghost Bear. You have tried and tried to get control of the planet Quentin, where it is produced, but just cannot take the planet. You have two choices: pay MC or unlock it through salvage.

Every time you unlock a chassis section, it shows on the paper doll as "unlocked". Once you have all the sections, you can then "build" the mech, just like if you purchase it with cbills currently.

[Silverlance]

Re-arm yes. This will bring a massive hammer on top of the heads of LRM boats and dakka boats. Repair, eh. Not so much. Up the re arm costs, drop the repair costs and have your salvage bonus lessen the repair costs but not re arming. Shouldn't be able to salvage detonated ammo from an ammo explosion or a portion of a mech's components that was blown off or cored.

Edited by Silverlance, 23 June 2014 - 07:31 PM.

[Cimarb]

Silverlance, on 23 June 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

Shouldn't be able to salvage detonated ammo from an ammo explosion or a portion of a mech's components that was blown off or cored.

Definitely. Salvage is only possible on mechs, sections and components that have not been destroyed.

[Powder Puff Pew Pew]

Seriously why doesnt this game reward you loot like weapons salvaged from kills or chassis? It was 1 of the only ways to obtain weapons from previous mw games and was actualy fun. I was excited to see what kinda loot I would get and picking apart mechs so not to totaly destroy them to get as much salvaged weapons as possible. It makes no sence not to, and more sence to.

[Cimarb]

Sure cannot wait to hear how CW will work, so we can see if a salvage system, or repair/rearm, will be implemented. I really don't see it being successful without such a system.

[Cimarb]

For a nice long discussion on this topic that picked up more steam than mine, see http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Calamus]

I think this is a great idea Cimarb.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's do-able with how PGI set the game up. It seems as though immersive ideas like this are beyond what PGI has created. Hell, they've already had to take several steps backwards, and completely re-write their backend code just to give us what we currently have. Here's why I say that.

For the salvage option especially, which is such a big part of the other Mechwarrior games, if I wanted a Dragon, all I would have to do it set up a match with someone who has a Dragon. I would be easy to set matches up with other players in order to get the mechs that I want. I think to do this properly, limiting exploitation as much as possible, they would have to implement PvE matches. Sort of like in other MMOs that have raids, or dungeon missions. That way you have to beat the raid in order to unlock the mech through salvage.

For that reason, I think that planetary control is more in keeping with what PGI has already created. I think this idea makes sense for how the game is right now. I'd prefer salvage AND planet control, but I just don't see it happening.

[Modo44]

R&R tied into game mechanics will do two things: hurt new players who will not understand all of its quirks, and provide exploits for veterans. This needs to be fluff and/or very non-interactive, or things will break. You can see the issues in other FTP games. You get either serious grind issues, or R&R is some automated background thing you do not ever worry about.