31 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

Calamus, on 30 July 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

I think this is a great idea Cimarb.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's do-able with how PGI set the game up. It seems as though immersive ideas like this are beyond what PGI has created. Hell, they've already had to take several steps backwards, and completely re-write their backend code just to give us what we currently have. Here's why I say that.

For the salvage option especially, which is such a big part of the other Mechwarrior games, if I wanted a Dragon, all I would have to do it set up a match with someone who has a Dragon. I would be easy to set matches up with other players in order to get the mechs that I want. I think to do this properly, limiting exploitation as much as possible, they would have to implement PvE matches. Sort of like in other MMOs that have raids, or dungeon missions. That way you have to beat the raid in order to unlock the mech through salvage.

For that reason, I think that planetary control is more in keeping with what PGI has already created. I think this idea makes sense for how the game is right now. I'd prefer salvage AND planet control, but I just don't see it happening.

Those are good points, but I do not think it would be all that difficult to implement. It would just all be tied to the achievement system, with a "pretty" front end screen in the mech lab.

Essentially, there would be a meta-achievement for each chassis variant, composed of individual achievements for each component in a particular section (RT, for instance). Earning salvage in a CW match, which is not a private match that you can just coordinate and farm, would give you an achievement for that particular component.

On the front end, you would have a mech selector just like the current mechlab, but it would be for CW unlocks. Just like trial mechs, any mech that is "open" for your particular faction would be unlocked already, but anything that is not available to your faction would be greyed out to begin with. As you earn achievements for that chassis variant, the unlocked sections of the variant light up to give you a visual of what you have achieved. Once the entire mech is unlocked, you earn the meta-achievement and are then free to use the mech in CW (as long as you have purchased it, of course).

Repair/Rearm would still be considered "out-of-faction", and therefore far more expensive than in-faction mechs, but it at least gives you the opportunity to pilot the mech you want without having to make a bunch of separate accounts or a lot of faction hopping.

I am going to add that part to the original post for clarity, so thank you for pointing it out.

[Calamus]

I see what you're saying. I'm still not sure how they would lock down the obvious exploit of dropping in collusion with other players in order to get the salvage you want. If it couldn't be exploited like that, I'm all for it.

[Cimarb]

Calamus, on 30 July 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

I see what you're saying. I'm still not sure how they would lock down the obvious exploit of dropping in collusion with other players in order to get the salvage you want. If it couldn't be exploited like that, I'm all for it.

Yeah, there is always that issue. In fact, that is pretty much the only way to get that illusive "Deathstar" achievement currently, which I am sure many large groups have already done.

[slide]

I generally agree with your proposals, but I don't agree with the idea of MC for repairs and ammo. Doing this will side step any type of economic balance that might be achieved by introducing income from none game sources. Buying a mech doesn't have the same sort of influence but for repairs and particularly ammo it would ruin it, by allowing people to do what ever they want without consequences. I voted no for that.

As for the rest I approve of the concepts and voted as such.

As I see it there are 3 reasons for R&R, not all will agree.
1. Immersion, fans care about this a lot, casual players not so much
2. To introduce some sort of active economy
3. balance builds by costs, either expensive repairs (XL engines) or high ammo costs (LRM boats)

All of those reasons have their advocates and detractors and it is not possible to please everyone but that is life.

For me I would like to see an active economy that increases the price of popular items and decreases the price of unused items based on player usage and demand. Example if the meta were to suddenly shift back to Guass Rifles then the 600,000 Cbill cost goes up as players start purchasing as well as the cost of Guass ammo as well. All of a sudden it becomes less profitable to run those Guassapults thus encouraging people to look elsewhere.

This would introduce an interesting dynamic to CW as well. We have been told that faction specific mechs will be cheaper if playing for that faction, so why not extend that to faction specific equipment and factories as well. So if ECM comes out of a Liao world they will be (much) more expensive to replace if you are Davion. If Davions were to capture that world then ECMs just got cheaper. The possibilities are endless. As well as the motivation to make groups go after things/planets.

In addition Salvaged items would become that much more valuable, and a PGI controlled black market where you can sell unwanted items would make for an interesting mini game with in the larger framework of CW. There would of course be the potential for abuse here but it could be monitored.

Oh but the new player gets screwed by R&R? The simple answer to this is insurance in some way shape or form. This was essentially what we had with the minimum 75% reloads etc that some people exploited in the previous incarnation. Insurance costs Cbills in the same way as consumables do now and covers you for that match. It should be something in the order of 50-60% of your match income. Your a bank account will grow slower but it will grow. But with the caveat that you ALWAYS pay for ammo. Insurance only ever covers repairs and you can choose to take it or not. Having to pay for ammo will reduce (not eliminate) missile and AC spam or at least make people consider their shots more. Insurance could also become a bargaining chip in merc or faction specific contracts. Ie if you get free insurance on a contract you get less salvage or vice versa. If you want to encourage more MC use then premium time could provide free or discount insurance.

New Player Cadet Bonus. I just recently played trough a new account and frankly I didn't find it that difficult but I have the experience of 3 years of play I would say that the Champion Shadowhawk is particularly good for new players. A new person will not have this. So to give them a bit more of a leg up into the game. I would suggest that the Cadet bonus is doubled and extended to 50 games, at which time they become rookies and get free insurance for the next 50. If they haven't got to a point where they can stay cashed up on their own then they probably never will.

FWIW I think clanners need a different system altogether. The Clans would never (at least not in the current timeline) have a use for Cbills or the black market or anything else related to the IS or Com Star. I don't know what that is at the moment. Maybe reputation points or similar as well as salvage. Trials of possession. I don't know. Clanners using Cbills just seems wrong to me.

[Cimarb]

I completely agree with all that, Slide. It is doubtful 100% of this will be added to the game, but I hope PGI sees the need for it and the profit and happiness that can come from its proper implementation. CW truly needs it, and we all need CW to succeed for the health of the game.

[Threat Doc]

I like, and 95% agree with the OP. It allows the lore to remain intact, but also gives CW faction players the ability to unlock 'Mechs, rather than having them all but denied between Clan and IS major factions. It has been said that history is to be re-written by us in this game, so why not have it possible for players to gain 'Mechs they've already purchased, or would like to purchase, back.

My only problem is that I would want to see this on a per-variant basis, not just per-chassis.

[Cimarb]

Kay Wolf, on 31 July 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

My only problem is that I would want to see this on a per-variant basis, not just per-chassis.

My thoughts exactly. Sorry if the OP did not make that clear.

[Domoneky]

I like the idea of repair and rearm being in CW. I think its an important component to the functionality to the game. I also have an idea about it so certain planets are largely contested. Why not have a few planets that have a bonus for any faction cause R&R to be 30% cheaper like a discount? This would almost certainly make this few planets be hot commodities and have a good reason to be fought for.

[Cimarb]

Domoneky, on 03 August 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

I like the idea of repair and rearm being in CW. I think its an important component to the functionality to the game. I also have an idea about it so certain planets are largely contested. Why not have a few planets that have a bonus for any faction cause R&R to be 30% cheaper like a discount? This would almost certainly make this few planets be hot commodities and have a good reason to be fought for.

I agree. For CW to be successful, it has to matter if you control certain planets. Tying certain planets to certain mechs, both for purchase, repairing and rearming, you make them matter. I would not have certain planets give a bonus for the whole faction, unless it was maybe a capital world like Luthien (so controlling that would maybe give a +10% faction bonus to LP or something), but having them tied to certain mechs would make some planets (such as those for Cataphracts, Victors, Shadowhawks, etc) a lot of importance, while other planets would give bonuses to less used mechs, but still have importance to those that play the respective mech(s).

[Zephonarch II]

Well I haven't formulated logical reasons on how PGI could make salvaging and repairing mechs functional in-game along with intertwining it with the CW dynamics. But, currently in point-form, here is how I believe salvaging and repairing could work along with CW:

MW:O for new players guide

• Sign Up
  
• Choose Faction
  
• Your faction will have specific mechs( different Trial Champion Mechs )
  
• Eventually buy your own mech with unlimited ability to customize Mechs(with what things you can buy for free)
  
• Upgrade, Elite, Customize Mechs
  
• Buy more Mechs through the Black-Market, or through your Faction's Salvaged Mech Supply.
  
• Repairing should not be a Pay2Win feature, so it should be available for Cbill functionality as well

Choosing a Faction should be more than just checking a box off in Profile settings. It should prompt us with a decision that is similar to making a purchase; asking us if we are sure with the Faction we wish to align with. So give us an updated bio on the Faction's political alignment, stock Mechs, current planets under military control, past leaders, leaderboard, Sub-Faction leaders(actual players leading units), tourney statistics, relations with other Factions; who their currently at War with, all for ex. (To give us a vibe of how fragile relations are in a universe where humanity has colonized and expanded itself across space).
And Faction-changes require a CB, MC fee. B/c presumably, turncoating shouldn't be easy at all. After-all; this started as a role-playing game.

Champion Mechs: Faction-specific mechs that are given as Trial mechs, but can still be purchased for custom-use.

Salvaging Mechs:
Hero Mechs cannot be salvaged to emphasize they're only in-game to appear as rare hybrid prototype Mechs sold for MC. Same for (C) Mechs but say they cost less MC to purchase-salvage them from your House's inventory than Hero Mechs. Mechs bought for free by opposing teams/Factions that are salvaged after battle can be purchased by F2Players through a collective Faction Mech supply. And through that, players should be offered a discount on Mechs in great supply for what Mechs their Faction has a lot of through salvaging.
(NOTE: This would change the currency and economy of the whole game. This transition would change how you play the game with what Mechs you have. Back to the way it used to be.)

Now. For repairing mechs. I cannot this see this happening unless if PGI revamp everything so that the game would work so that we would no longer have the same Mech in our Mech labs if we died last match after from a CT crit @ 7%. Owning your own Mechs would be a thing of the past (unless if you've unlocked all upgrades for a specific mech; mentioned below). But in MW, it's always been like that. Instead how about:

The only sure thing about what players own, are Faction Mechs. Your own Faction owns an Infinite supply of their Mechs. You'll never need to have C-Bills to fight for your Group, just your Faction Mechs. But for Vets of the game, howabout after Eliting/Mastering Mechs </em>you earn a big discount on a specific variant so... you can still own your own Mechs. Think of it like Prestige. You've unlocked the 2nd/3rd tier, now you can unlock your Mech so you don't have to salvage it anymore. So this means Vets will make up Faction's/Team's hard-hitting and experienced players in uncommon mechs among their Faction's/Team's stock mechs.

Kay Wolf, on 05 August 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Just use the general editing tools that come with the forum, please?

I'm rarely on the forum, so I apologize. I didn't even notice the formatting had an error in it.

Edited by Zephonarch II, 05 August 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Threat Doc]

Just use the general editing tools that come with the forum, please?

[Threat Doc]

Zephonarch II, on 05 August 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

And Faction-changes require a CB, MC fee. B/c presumably, turncoating shouldn't be easy at all. After-all; this started as a role-playing game.

I couldn't agree with this more. If you turncoat, that's problematic. Now, with Merc Corps', it should be a bit easier, depending on the reason one is leaving. Merc Corps are, after all, full of multi-House folks. Perhaps a questionnaire as to why someone's leaving, and a record of the various units they've tried out and left on a whim, should be increasingly expensive, per unit, to do.

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Salvaging Mechs:

Hero Mechs cannot be salvaged to emphasize they're only in-game to appear as rare hybrid prototype Mechs sold for MC. Same for (C) Mechs but say they cost less MC to purchase-salvage them from your House's inventory than Hero Mechs.

Don't forget Phoenix and Founder's 'Mechs.

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Mechs bought for free by opposing teams/Factions that are salvaged after battle can be purchased by F2Players through a collective Faction Mech supply. And through that, players should be offered a discount on Mechs in great supply for what Mechs their Faction has a lot of through salvaging.

This I sort of disagree with. The proposed Merc economy is one in which each MechWarrior keeps their earnings, as with PUG games, but then pay tribute to the Merc Corps, which is completely bass ackwards. The Merc Unit should get ALL of the money, and then be responsible to ensure everyone gets paid a fair share. This should also be true with salvaged 'Mechs: they should go to the unit pool to be repaired, and then dispossessed, or new, players can select from what is available in that stable, and then outfit the 'Mech, customize it, from the merc unit pool of parts and supplies that have not already been used up. The merc unit should be the center of all that is taking place in the merc unit, and the MechWarrior's should be on hire status, having limited access to goods and services provided by the merc unit, NOT the other way around.

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(NOTE: This would change the currency and economy of the whole game. This transition would change how you play the game with what Mechs you have. Back to the way it used to be.)

Not only could I handle that, but I know for a fact I would enjoy it a lot better.

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Now. For repairing mechs. I cannot this see this happening unless if PGI revamp everything so that the game would work so that we would no longer have the same Mech in our Mech labs if we died last match after from a CT crit @ 7%. Owning your own Mechs would be a thing of the past (unless if you've unlocked all upgrades for a specific mech; mentioned below).

Ummm, I own every 'Mech I have in my MechBays, I paid for the Catapult founders, the Sarah's Jenner, and one of my BattleMasters, but I have earned the other two Jenner's I recently sold off, after Mastery, all three of my Wolverine's, of which the 6K useless POS 'Mech is now gone, and I await a Hero to replace it, my other two Catapults, and my other two BattleMasters. Make no mistake, though, that those are my 'Mechs, and a lot of people have a lot of other 'Mechs. You can't grind for hours and hours on-end to purchase new 'Mechs and then have them just go away because someone beat you. I like the idea, but I'll guarantee you that you're going to catch flack from many many others. The 'Mechs I earned through grinding, I would be willing to give up in this way. However, the 'Mechs I paid MCs for, including my Founder's, my Sarah's, I would want to see those time-ransomed back to me, say not being able to play with them for the rest of the evening, while Champion's and Hero's would be returned within, say, an hour. I've got enough 'Mechs to play through multiple drops, so I'm not worried about it.

Now, all of this comes with a caveat... whomever wins the battlefield, gets to keep their 'Mechs, and the losers stuff is up for salvage splitting and time-ransom, so players on the other team are not entirely without just because they didn't win.

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The only sure thing about what players own, are Faction Mechs. Your own Faction owns an Infinite supply of their Mechs.

NO!!! Same rules, period. Unless it's the Champion 'Mechs... those don't get modded, anyway, they're trials, so I could see a Faction owning an infinite supply of those. It would also allow players to continue building up their cash so they could repair/rearm, apply salvage, or otherwise get their own 'Mechs back.

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Think of it like Prestige. You've unlocked the 2nd/3rd tier, now you can unlock your Mech so you don't have to salvage it anymore. So this means Vets will make up Faction's/Team's hard-hitting and experienced players in uncommon mechs among their Faction's/Team's stock mechs.

Prestige is something that should be won on the battlefield, perhaps also quantified to allow someone to exchange a measure of their prestige for C-Bills or MC, so they could perform upgrades to their 'Mechs, such as changing a hard point from one type to another, adding another hardpoint to a location, or changing a hardpoint from a small or medium or large to any other type... IF PGI ever gets these things squared away.

There are some GREAT ideas being had, here, but not all of them go quite far enough.