22 replies to this topic

[Tragic_Pain_Glove]

For my LRM heavy Timber: I don't have room for all listed below.
I also realize they differ in weight & slot count, but in terms of causing greatest damage, which of these has the least impact on average of total damage done (ie:which should I sacrifice to allow room for the others):

Tag
Missile count (tons)
Tube count (eg: 50 vs 55)
Artemis

I would say I have LoS at most 40-50% of the time.

Edited by Odd Thomas, 23 June 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Dragonfett]

What do you mean by Tube Count?

[IraqiWalker]

tube count, and artemis in my opinion. Tag isn't necessary, so it can be shifted. However, in all honesty. It does have it's uses.

[Barkem Squirrel]

What I look at is artemis is a bonus. If you use 4 LRM 10s maybe. If not use 2 LRM 10s and 3 LRM 15's. I normally use a 36 volley rule for any launcher. So with 4 LRM 10s that is 8 tons, but 10 tons with the LRM 15's.

I would go with what I have on the Battlemaster 2 LRM 15's and 2 LRM 5's 3 ml, BAP, Atemis and TAG.

So you would have 2 LRM 15 and 5's, TAG, Artemis, 8.5 tons of ammo, one JJ, 3 ERML and CAP.
If you want the two MG's drop .5 tons of ammo and the jumpjet. Note: two LRM 20's are one tons heavier, but need two less tons of Artemis controls so you could just remove a half ton of ammo for the MGs with LRM 20's. This is using the S variant.

Now on some smaller mechs with a few LRM 10s the artemis is deadly. A few centurions I have run with two LRM 10s with artemis and TAG. The benefits are just too high.

Edited by Barkem Squirrel, 23 June 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[Tragic_Pain_Glove]

Dragonfett, on 23 June 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

What do you mean by Tube Count?

eg: LRM15(15 missile tubes) vs. LRM10 (10 tubes) - how many missiles fired per salvo.

Edited by Odd Thomas, 23 June 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Tube count is sorta irrelevant with the clan mechs seeing as how they ripple or stream fire all the LRM's anyway. Ammo amount is dependent on the amount of support you plan on putting down and how much you are shooting. If you are running out often make room for more. The opposite, drop that for something else TAG and Artemis will only help the missiles you do use to ensure they hit their targets and are not wasted as much.

[xMintaka]

I'd drop tube count in order to mount Artemis and a Tag.

What build are you running? It might be worth dropping the tube count further, to gain DPS and heat efficiency.

Ghost heat free LurmWolf. ALRM40 might be a bit too low for you, but I thought I might put this out there. You can drop the ERML to ERSL and use the tonnage for more ammo.

Edited by Lunatech, 23 June 2014 - 10:21 AM.

[Dragonfett]

Odd Thomas, on 23 June 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

eg: LRM15(15 missile tubes) vs. LRM10 (10 tubes) - how many missiles fired per salvo.

The reason I had asked that is that it did not seem clear to me whether the volley size or the number of available tubes on a 'mech were being asked about, which are two totally different things. One is controllable by the type of LRM you get, the other is controlled by the 'mech in question.

[PhoenixFire55]

Odd Thomas, on 23 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Tag

Not expendable.

Odd Thomas, on 23 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Missile count (tons)

Depends on how many you got and how many you shoot per salvo.

Odd Thomas, on 23 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Tube count (eg: 50 vs 55)

If its a question between 50 and 55, sure sacrifice it. If between 20 and 25, no.
Plus, take ghost heat into account.
Plus, take the 'chassis tube count' into account as well. If you are shooting your LRM20 out of 2 tubes you really are better off with an LRM5.

Odd Thomas, on 23 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Artemis

Expendable. The more so the more your 'tube count' is.

Odd Thomas, on 23 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

I would say I have LoS at most 40-50% of the time.

Improve that to 80% and you'll need twice less ammo. Partially because you'll be surely hitting, partially because you'll live less time on average. However, being an LRM boat and alive vs 3 remaining enemies instead of taking some damage and thus keeping your 2-3 teammates alive, isn't really gonna help you win.

[Pekiti]

What LunaTech and PhoenixFire said.

It sounds like you would get better results by adjusting your positioning (get more direct LOS time) and play style (play a bit more aggressively), rather than altering your build much.

You absolutely do not want to drop TAG on a dedicated LRM unit. You need to be able to get your own locks, in today's ECM environment. CAP is debated hotly by some, but I'm a believer in it and always fit it. I'd drop a laser before I'd give up CAP.

Artemis is fitted for two things - speed up locks and improve grouping of your missile swarm. I don't fit it on mechs that are carrying only LRM5 or LRM10s because those launchers already have a tight group. With LRM 15 and LRM 20 though, Artemis helps...until you reach a certain point where sheer volume of missiles will kill/cripple regardless of grouping. So if you are going light LRM salvoes, drop the Artemis. If you are going massive LRM salvoes, drop the Artemis. Otherwise, keep it.

Look at Luna's suggested build using a combo of LRM 15 and 5s to save tonnage and avoid ghost heat. Personally, I use Terciel's rule of thumb on LRM ammo (carry 1 ton of ammo per 5 tubes I fit to my mech) and that's been a really effective amount of ammo for me. I rarely end a match with lots of left over ammo, and I rarely run out until the match is pretty much finished.

Fire discipline is the biggest way to improve your LRM mech - don't fire blind, play closer to your front line mechs so you can dump missiles with LOS to your target, study the maps and know which areas are hard to get solid hits (urban maps are tough).

[Bobzilla]

Personally, ammo is a big deal. It does depend on how much you already have tho. But remember, one ton of LRM ammo is only going to get you 100 dmg if you are really really good.

[Mechteric]

Gotta have TAG (also BAP), otherwise ECM covered mechs are pretty much immune and you can't be having that happen.

I'd still recommend Artemis however over not having, it was a choice between 45 LRMs with Artemis or 55 LRMs without Artemis, I'd go with for sure. But if its a bigger gap, perhaps not.

[GLIZZY GULPER]

I think the TW's got that odd tubesize thing where it changes depending on the launcher in the slot.

Arty can go next.

[Caviel]

Odd Thomas, on 23 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

For my LRM heavy Timber: I don't have room for all listed below.
I also realize they differ in weight & slot count, but in terms of causing greatest damage, which of these has the least impact on average of total damage done (ie:which should I sacrifice to allow room for the others):

Tag
Missile count (tons)
Tube count (eg: 50 vs 55)
Artemis

So here's a breakdown on each, specific to the Mad Cat you are running with:

TAG - Going to give you a tighter grouping on missiles, although requires LOS within I believe 650m now. Not always easy for an LRM boat to get and maintain for the full flight of missiles

Missile count - No ammo, no damage, simple as that

Tube Count - More important on Inner Sphere mechs. For Inner Sphere mechs, if you put an LRM 15 in a section with 10 tubes, it will fire a group of 10 and a group of 5. For Clan mechs this is totally irrelevant since Clan LRMs "stream" fire as opposed to the Inner Sphere LRM cluster fire.

Artemis - Again, tighter grouping on missiles, and stacks with TAG. Per the Battletech books, requires LOS. LOS requirement for Artemis was in MWO, then out, and possibly still out.

Quote

I would say I have LoS at most 40-50% of the time.

Remember this means TAG (And possibly Artemis) is only usable 40-50% of the time.

For non-grouped public queue matches, being an LRM boat can be extremely frustrating. You are VERY heavily relying on your teammates to target and maintain target locks on mechs for you to be effective, most of which could care less about how well you are doing in a match as they are worried about their own performance.

If you think you are going to be able to just hide behind a hill and lob LRMs at remote targets from safety, prepare yourself to be frustrated 75% of the time with low damage totals, or getting eaten alive by fast mechs that you will have a hard time defending against.

[Roosterfish]

For me I would dump Art if I was not running 15 or 20 racks.

Then I'd look at tube count, especially if it was only a drop from 55 to 50.

Tag works, it's better to have it than not have it.

Ammo really isn't negotiable, without ammo the racks are useless.

[Macksheen]

Odd Thomas, on 23 June 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

For my LRM heavy Timber: I don't have room for all listed below.
I also realize they differ in weight & slot count, but in terms of causing greatest damage, which of these has the least impact on average of total damage done (ie:which should I sacrifice to allow room for the others):

Tag - Always ... sometimes you want to be able to target someone, and TAG rocks for that. You can't always get around ECM otherwise.

Missile count (tons) - 6 to 10 tons of ammo, usually.

Tube count (eg: 50 vs 55) - 25-40 is my happy place

Artemis - yep, I basically always run it - not for the grouping, but for the lock time

Now, for the tube and artemis answers, mind you I NEVER BOAT. I skirmish LRMs, and think boating them is a coin toss towards great success and/or horrible failure.

Quote

I would say I have LoS at most 40-50% of the time.

My TBR LuRMisher runs between 30 and 40 tubes (15s and 20s), artemis, TAG, 6xERML and the rest in ammo and heatsinks (one jump jet). I like builds like that better, as they are more useful if LRM rain isn't working.

The 40 tube version
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f843178eafea116

The 30 tube version - bit more ammo, heatsinks
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3601668f03c59be

Edited by Macksheen, 26 June 2014 - 05:09 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 June 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

take the 'chassis tube count' into account as well. If you are shooting your LRM20 out of 2 tubes you really are better off with an LRM5.

This advise is correct for Inner Sphere Mechs (I once did an experiment with a CDA-X5 and an LRM20, it was ready to fire again before it had finished firing the first salvo) but not for Clan Mechs.

As with all current Clan Mechs there is no Tube limit for the Timber Wolf, if you put on an LRM20 and you fire a stream of 20 missiles over about a second.

[Ballimbo]

Pekiti, on 25 June 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

CAP is debated hotly by some, but I'm a believer in it and always fit it. I'd drop a laser before I'd give up CAP.

What is CAP?
Or do you mean BAP?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Ballimbo, on 27 June 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

What is CAP?

They don't call it the BAP - just the Clan Active Probe

[1453 R]

An alternative idea for a Lurmwolf.

Clan 'Mechs don't care about tube count for their launchers - they care about launcher count. The only way to increase missile density for Clan LRMs is to launch LRMs concurrently from several separate launchers at once, which is difficult to do without running into hardpoint limitations/Ghost Heat.

Two tens over two fives gives you thirty LRMs, which is a reasonable salvo size for a mobile LRM Lurmisher as opposed to a bloatboat. More importantly, it allows you to cycle your launchers faster (though the TImber-S side torsos hinder this), and also doubles your missile density over just two launchers for the first twenty missiles out of your thirty. This gives you better penetration vs. AMS, which is a HUGE problem for Clan LRMs. This is also why you've got two C-ERPPCs as well as the missiles - on top of PPCs' ability to interfere with ECM, those guns offer you solid direct-fire support for your tubes.

I kept the TAG, but couldn't find weight for Artemis, which sucks. Your lock times and groupings will suffer, but with the smaller launchers it shouldn't be a devastating issue. Between the CAP, TAG, and the C-ERPPCs, ECM shouldn't often be an issue. You fire less total missiles, but what you do have gets through AMS better and cycles faster. Better for making close fire support attacks from the front, where you can leverage that TAG and also hammer them with PPC fire.

Edited by 1453 R, 27 June 2014 - 12:25 PM.