513 replies to this topic

[xXBagheeraXx]

Actually the Cbill victor is a better poptart. The dragon Slayer requires you to syncronise your torso and arm mounted weapons. The (9B i belive) cbill victor has 2 energy mounts in one arm and 3 ballistics in the other arm. So the only aiming required is the small arm mounted weapon circle on your hud. Your ppcs and autocannons are always aiming at the same point on the target.

As far as clan mechs go. The only one I feel completely unfair driving is the dire wolf, and only because it is the only assault in the game that can carry dual gauss atm, and can get ridiculous alpha strikes in with ammo and heatsinks to spare....but the dire wolf is THE most well armed mech out there until we start getting marauder II's, Fafnirs and the like in game. and even so the Dire wolf can get its rear end handed to it by a spider, or a Jenner....hell a well driven Victor can run circles around the things, they are VERY slow and VERY sluggish. They do not have good torso twist range, and even mastered cant even keep pace with a decked out Atlas.

Summoners are meh, Madcats are to me bigger, meaner catapults. Decent missile/laser platforms (with a ballistic option, but less available weight to put into them than a catapult K2) but nothing to write home about. Ryokens are pretty decent for mediums, but again, its just a medium mech. One or two well placed swats and he's in trouble.

A Jenner or Cicada can EAT most clan lights...

Where exactly is this pay to win coming from? I dont feel very pay to win losing 4 or 5 games in a row in my clan mechs. Honestly the only hero mechs that are hands over foot better than the cbill counterparts are the Muromets and the Misery...and the Misery cant missile b0at, it simply has a ballistic alternative the other stalkers dont have.

[Tesunie]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

You realize this isn't evidence, right? It's just a hypothetical scenario with a false conclusion. Why did you decide that player B beats player A, or vice-versa? Were we supposed to assume they had equal skill, or not? What does this demonstrate? I don't think I'll be refining my debate skills using your example, sorry.

His point was, with his hypothetical situation (which is the base definition of P2W by the way), is that a lesser "skilled" player can "pay" to win against more skilled free players. Buying clan mechs (or even heroes) does not provide an advantage that increases a lesser skilled player's chances to win against a superior skilled player. A player might see better performance in a clan mech, but that inherently doesn't make it P2W either.

If we go by your own logic, then the Hunchback 4J stock is too powerful, because I can preform very well in it (I've had 600+ damage matches in it). I'm taking on customized "better" mechs in my lowly stock mech, and somehow winning. Thus, the Hunchback 4J, by your definition of "as long as one does well in it" being applied, is OP. All because I do well in it.
This logic is flawed...

[N a p e s]

Can we just let this thread die...?

This has been going around in circles for the better part of the day and is getting absolutely nowhere. If OP believes that MW:O has become full P2W let him have his opinion. Anyway he's obviously not interested in changing his stance on the subject so lets just let this thing go and leave him alone in his corner.

[Tesunie]

Napes339, on 25 June 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

Can we just let this thread die...?

This has been going around in circles for the better part of the day and is getting absolutely nowhere. If OP believes that MW:O has become full P2W let him have his opinion. Anyway he's obviously not interested in changing his stance on the subject so lets just let this thing go and leave him alone in his corner.

But it's fun to poke him with a stick and see him snarl...

[Atheus]

Spades Kincaid, on 25 June 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

Pay to win has nothing to do with how good a particular player is with a weapon (mech). It has everything to do with if that weapon (mech) is outright better than any version of weapon (mech) that doesn't require $ to obtain. Pay-to-win is in the superiority of the item(s) in question. Not in suiting a player's preferences, playstyle or skillset.

This is a quagmire, because what you wind up with is something that can be endlessly debated, and what you'll wind up with is that basically the IS PPC, the IS AC/5 or UAC/5, and the Clan Gauss rifles are the best weapons in the game. Then you try to figure out what mechs you can mount them on, which makes you compromise, since you can't put a clan gauss rifle on an IS mech. But then what about lasers? What about missiles, which aren't part of competition play at all, for the most part, yet these things are common in the mid/low range. It is a total quagmire, and the only conclusions you can draw are useless to reaching an overall conclusion, like the IS medium laser is 100% inferior to the C-ERML, or the IS-Gauss is inferior to the C-Gauss. If there is any hope of coming to a reasonable conclusion on the issue, you have to steer around this whole mess and just look at the results players are getting fro whatever they are trying.

Spades Kincaid, on 25 June 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

If Joe really likes the Gridiron, and he does really well with it. Better than with any other mech in the game. That does not in itself make the Gridiron pay-to-win.

If Joe split into two identical Joes, the Joe in the gridiron would have an advantage over the Joe stuck with some other mech. Joe Gridiron paid to get a mech that better suits his skills. You can't just assume that there is nobody else out there that is competing with Joe that would benefit from the same advantages. He may not have an advantage over everyone, but he's working with a larger set of options to get an advantage.

Spades Kincaid, on 25 June 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

If your definition of pay-to-win involves player skill/preferences in any fashion, then you have a functionally crippled definition of pay-to-win.

Player skill is always removed from the discussion. Player X and Player Y are = in skill is the default premise worked from. Player Y is Player X's clone if you prefer. If Player X and Player Y are both given options A, B, C, D (free) and E (only for $), is an advantage conferred to one of them if they use E? That is the definition of pay-to-win.

So in order to assert pay-to-win for the Clan mechs, yes, you DO have to assert that the Clan mechs confer a direct advantage over IS mechs in and of themselves. And you'd be expected to state your case in quantifying that advantage.
(As you did for the DS in your OP. Agree or disagree, you made an arguable case.)

Unfortunately while I agree with the premise that you should try to exclude skill, it invariably gets drawn into the discussion. The reason is that a player who is deadly with an IS-AC/20 isn't necessarily going to be as deadly with a Clan AC/20 of some sort. The parameters shift in multiple directions, and it comes down to the player to figure out whether they're going to be able to capitalize on the pros and minimize the cons of the different system. In the end, you're back to just try it and see. You can make pretty good predictions in certain scenarios, like what happens when a HBK-4P pilot upgrades to a Storm Crow or a Nova, but the results aren't exactly guaranteed either. Clan mediums have to figure out how to deal with some lower mounted weapons. I would be shocked if a HBK-4P pilot couldn't squeak better performance out of a storm crow/nova, but I can't provide anything other than my opinion of its massive heat, damage, range and mobility superiority until someone comes forth with a whole heap of data to verify it.

This is why I'm focusing on the simplest data to estimate. Players can tell when they've jumped into the cockpit of a mech that works really well for them. The weapons are easy to use, they do more damage than they're used to doing, they have more good matches and fewer bad ones. Is it somewhat anecdotal? Yeah, but it's the most reliable metric they'll have until they've got a good amount of match data to percolate.

[Grey Black]

FupDup, on 24 June 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

Which is why the underlying causes of their advantages should be remedied.

Agreed. We should remove players from the equation!

[Atheus]

N0MAD, on 25 June 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

I gues the simple question is..
Can i use Clans to win, answer is yes.. is that a false statement?
Can i buy Clans with ingame currency, answer is no.. is that a false statement?(question is not can i buy them in future)

You've oversimplified the first question. It doesn't matter whether you win or not. If you perform better in Clan, then you're working with an advantage. You're going to continue to lose matches regularly and die regularly, just less often than you would in IS. (until ELO realizes you're stronger, bumps you up and nullifies your gains)

But yeah, it's just about that simple.

[Triskelion]

FupDup, on 24 June 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

Hero mechs: Currently, the only ones that can even remotely qualify are the Dragon Slayer, Misery, and Ember. In those cases, their respective strengths are mostly due to coincidentally exploiting certain flaws in the game's design (i.e. convergence for the first two, fairly hard to sustain 6 MLas Jenners for the third one). If the game were better balanced, they wouldn't be generally better than their C-Bill counterparts.


Clan mechs: The only one that qualifies is probably the Mad Cat, which is only for the trending 2 CERPPC + CGauss loadout. The others are generally at least slightly worse than the best IS mechs in their classes, or roughly on-par.

Pretty much exactly what I've been noticing.

[Sandpit]

I'll let you guys continue the good fight lol

bottom line, mwo (as many things as it is and is not for better or for worse) is NOT p2w, it's really that simple. Guys like the op have been giving the same circular argument about the exact same thing since the yen lo and have yet to provide any kind of proof whatsoever.

I will still continue to read the thread though as it's humorous at this point and no amount of logical explanation or requests for any substantial proof will go unheeded in favor of "because i said so" lol

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

You're going to continue to lose matches regularly and die regularly, just less often than you would in IS.

unless you're one of the ones that don't lol

[Tesunie]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

This is why I'm focusing on the simplest data to estimate. Players can tell when they've jumped into the cockpit of a mech that works really well for them. The weapons are easy to use, they do more damage than they're used to doing, they have more good matches and fewer bad ones. Is it somewhat anecdotal? Yeah, but it's the most reliable metric they'll have until they've got a good amount of match data to percolate.

So... basically you're argument is based on "a player who finds a mech that better matches their skill sets". For the record, that has nothing to do with OP items, or P2W. Cause, honestly, I would suck in a Mystery, but I do amazing in my Stalker 3F. I would suck in a Grid Iron, but I do very well in a Hunchback 4J or 4SP.

Also, there are balances to a lot of the clan tech you are saying is "out right better". Those lasers, longer beam duration (more splash damage) and more heat. I could do the same for other clan weapons. Even clan mechs are limited in a way. They are limited to their pod space, the amount of armor they can take, the size of their engines, where their ammo can go (but free CASE)... I could go on. (I mean, some mechs even have hard fixed heat sinks and weapons! Adder having the fixed flamer for one example.)

Basing your "proof" on "just one" is not an accurate debating point. You need more data, cause otherwise, all of the free to play mechs are just better for me (personally) than the Pay for (hero) mechs. (Only one I might find moderately useful for myself could be the Cicada X-5.)

[Corralis]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

When I bought my six Clan Mech's, I did not buy them because I thought I would be able to WTFPWN everything in sight. I bought them because for me MWO was getting stale and boring and I wanted to play the game differently. I bought them because they look bloody cool and are the most iconic mech's in Battletech lore. Now I primarily pilot the Warhawk with 2 ER Large Lasers and 2 Large Pulse Lasers, it's a simple build but I like it. Probably no one else will like it but I don't care about anyone else because when I pilot that mech I have fun. I have had matches in that mech where I have scored over 1000 damage and got several kills but does that mean I have paid for an advantage? No not really because I can get that same score with many different IS Mech's. I can jump into and Atlas RS and have the same build, or a Stalker or several other mech's. I have not paid money for an advantage, I have paid my hard earned money to play this game in a mech that I like the look of.

OP you need to be very careful when you say things like 'Everyone who has bought Clan Mech's has paid to win' (especially when you yourself has admitted in this very thread to have bought Clan mech's) because you are basically calling me (and everyone else) a cheater.

[Deathz Jester]

[Triskelion]

Corralis, on 25 June 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

OP you need to be very careful when you say things like 'Everyone who has bought Clan Mech's has paid to win' (especially when you yourself has admitted in this very thread to have bought Clan mech's) because you are basically calling me (and everyone else) a cheater.

Oh? I didn't notice that one (I'm pretty wiped).

In that case, I'd like to thank him for funding the game. Let him think what he wants of it, everyone who cares has already seen what IS meta builds do to the best attempts at clan meta builds (since that should be all he cares about given his argument). Cheers mate.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Corralis, on 25 June 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

I can't believe this thread is still going.

When I bought my six Clan Mech's, I did not buy them because I thought I would be able to WTFPWN everything in sight. I bought them because for me MWO was getting stale and boring and I wanted to play the game differently. I bought them because they look bloody cool and are the most iconic mech's in Battletech lore. Now I primarily pilot the Warhawk with 2 ER Large Lasers and 2 Large Pulse Lasers, it's a simple build but I like it. Probably no one else will like it but I don't care about anyone else because when I pilot that mech I have fun. I have had matches in that mech where I have scored over 1000 damage and got several kills but does that mean I have paid for an advantage? No not really because I can get that same score with many different IS Mech's. I can jump into and Atlas RS and have the same build, or a Stalker or several other mech's. I have not paid money for an advantage, I have paid my hard earned money to play this game in a mech that I like the look of.

OP you need to be very careful when you say things like 'Everyone who has bought Clan Mech's has paid to win' (especially when you yourself has admitted in this very thread to have bought Clan mech's) because you are basically calling me (and everyone else) a cheater.

Very much this.

The mech i drive the most out of the La carte packages I bought is my quad er ppc warhawk....You know why?

Ive driven a triple ppc er large Awesome 8Q and a 2erppc gauss K2 exclusively for months now leading up to the clan mechs dropping...Ive had tons of practice with those configs and can pretty much get surgical at 800+ meters with ppcs now. I drive my warhawk for ppc spamming fun. The only advantage it has over my 8Q are extra heatsinks. Ive actually gotten myself in a lot more trouble with my Warhawk than I do in my 8q because I dont play it as consatively. But i still have a blast doing it...I can very easily hop back in my 8Q and have just as much fun, albiet a little warmer running fun

[Corralis]

Triskelion, on 25 June 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

Oh? I didn't notice that one (I'm pretty wiped).

In that case, I'd like to thank him for funding the game. Let him think what he wants of it, everyone who cares has already seen what IS meta builds do to the best attempts at clan meta builds (since that should be all he cares about given his argument). Cheers mate.

No problem, this is the OP's quote from page 4 of this thread - "I built a dire wolf today that can churn out 249 damage from 450m in 6.25 seconds and then keep shooting. I built a (50 ton) Nova with a highly usable and ghost heat free 64.5 point alpha, a 55 ton LRM60 Stormcrow with 10 tons of ammo, and a Timberwolf with a 94 point alpha and high sustained DPS."

He's basically a hypocrite and his idea of what P2W is in his head is completely different from everyone else's view.

[Atheus]

Tesunie, on 25 June 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

So... basically you're argument is based on "a player who finds a mech that better matches their skill sets". For the record, that has nothing to do with OP items, or P2W. Cause, honestly, I would suck in a Mystery, but I do amazing in my Stalker 3F. I would suck in a Grid Iron, but I do very well in a Hunchback 4J or 4SP.

Well good. You've identified 2 mechs you could probably buy without being guilty of paying for an advantage. Good luck doing that with the entire Clan invasion pack.

Tesunie, on 25 June 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

Also, there are balances to a lot of the clan tech you are saying is "out right better". Those lasers, longer beam duration (more splash damage) and more heat. I could do the same for other clan weapons. Even clan mechs are limited in a way. They are limited to their pod space, the amount of armor they can take, the size of their engines, where their ammo can go (but free CASE)... I could go on. (I mean, some mechs even have hard fixed heat sinks and weapons! Adder having the fixed flamer for one example.)

...yeah, I know. That's exactly what I was saying in the last post, so obviously you don't need to point it out to me. Still, some weapons are straight line upgrades with no drawbacks. SRM's, ER medium lasers, ER small lasers to name a few. LRM's probably come out pretty far ahead in the pros vs. cons if you're boating 'em, and while you can put cons on individual clan weapons, much of the time you can just mount more of them and cool them faster, which compensates for most of the drawbacks you can imagine. This isn't what the purpose of this thread is, though. I recognize that the weapon debate is a quagmire, and intentionally focus on the results individual player expect, and the results they accomplish using clan tech.

Tesunie, on 25 June 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

Basing your "proof" on "just one" is not an accurate debating point. You need more data, cause otherwise, all of the free to play mechs are just better for me (personally) than the Pay for (hero) mechs. (Only one I might find moderately useful for myself could be the Cicada X-5.)

Finding one player that benefits from upgrading to clan tech is symbolic. There are no totally unique players in MWO. Everyone has the ability to aim a laser, lead a ballistic, fire an LRM, manage heat, find a good position, torso twist — to some degree everyone has all of those skills. If you can find one guy who will use ballistics if he has to, but really loves to use lasers, you'll find dozens just like that guy. Likewise if you find one guy who wants to just hang back and lob LRM's, but wants to pack some backup lasers just in case, you'll find dozens just like that. So if you find one guy that says he is performing better in Clan mechs due to the unique loadout it provides, then there will most likely be dozens just like him who would receive similar benefit.

[xXBagheeraXx]

94 point alpha timberwolf?

Bullshit.

he would only get those kind of numbers with some manner of missiles which do not focus damage on a single section of the mech.

Smurphys links or GTFO in that case.

[Triskelion]

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

94 point alpha timberwolf?

Bullshit.

he would only get those kind of numbers with some manner of missiles which do not focus damage on a single section of the mech.

Smurphys links or GTFO in that case.

It's a LRM build, I've seen it thrown around NGNG earlier. It's pointless and badly contextualized mathcrafting.

(and I've seen it used, and it performs pretty much exactly as you'd expect it to)

Edited by Triskelion, 25 June 2014 - 08:56 PM.

[Corralis]

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

94 point alpha timberwolf?

Bullshit.

he would only get those kind of numbers with some manner of missiles which do not focus damage on a single section of the mech.

Smurphys links or GTFO in that case.

Yea I did think the same thing when I read that. It might be possible if you remove all the armor on the mech but I can't think of the combo you would need off hand. In fact any combo of that nature would have to include SRM's or Streak SRM's and they don't count cause the damage is all spread out.

[Atheus]

Corralis, on 25 June 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

I can't believe this thread is still going.

When I bought my six Clan Mech's, I did not buy them because I thought I would be able to WTFPWN everything in sight. I bought them because for me MWO was getting stale and boring and I wanted to play the game differently. I bought them because they look bloody cool and are the most iconic mech's in Battletech lore...

Cool. I'll point out again, the purpose of this thread isn't to try to shame the players who prepaid for Clan. The point is to get the fact that this game has P2W elements out of the way so whenever someone wants to talk about some P2W system, they don't have to deal with a gazillion indignant posts insisting that this game has no P2W. If you didn't choose Clan because you thought it would provide some advantage, then you did not choose to pay for an advantage, you paid for mechs that you thought looked cool, or whatever. That does not mean you didn't get an advantage, though.

Corralis, on 25 June 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

OP you need to be very careful when you say things like 'Everyone who has bought Clan Mech's has paid to win' (especially when you yourself has admitted in this very thread to have bought Clan mech's) because you are basically calling me (and everyone else) a cheater.

Triskelion, on 25 June 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

Oh? I didn't notice that one (I'm pretty wiped).

In that case, I'd like to thank him for funding the game. Let him think what he wants of it, everyone who cares has already seen what IS meta builds do to the best attempts at clan meta builds (since that should be all he cares about given his argument). Cheers mate.

Corralis, on 25 June 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

No problem, this is the OP's quote from page 4 of this thread - "I built a dire wolf today that can churn out 249 damage from 450m in 6.25 seconds and then keep shooting. I built a (50 ton) Nova with a highly usable and ghost heat free 64.5 point alpha, a 55 ton LRM60 Stormcrow with 10 tons of ammo, and a Timberwolf with a 94 point alpha and high sustained DPS."

He's basically a hypocrite and his idea of what P2W is in his head is completely different from everyone else's view.

Actually, I built those mechs in Smurfy's mechlab. I don't own the clan pack. I regret the fact that I bought the Phoenix pack, but I'm glad I bought the Founder's pack. I don't resent the players who bought the Clan pack, but I do wish that it wasn't so hard for most of them to accept that Clan tech probably represents a significant P2W element across the entire ELO landscape.