513 replies to this topic

[-Vompo-]

Yeah I don't have many posts but don't judge me for it.

Ask yourself what mech would you use if you had all of them available to you. Maybe do a list of top 5. How many of those are clan mechs and why?

[qki]

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 12:37 AM, said:

So your concern is that players deliberately using ineffective weapon systems who boost their play by buying other, better ineffective weapon systems are going to be accused of P2W. Part of me wants to say that he's going to play what he's going to play, and there are others just like him who want to play that way too. If he's a laser guy, then there are other laser guys. If he's an SRM guy, then there are other SRM guys. The difference is that if the laser guys and the SRM guys are both better off with clan, then that's that. They won't get to experience the joys of ballistics, but they will get to experience the joys of blowing away the laser guys and SRM guys who didn't buy the clan versions.

Yes, they didn't get an advantage over everyone, but they got an advantage over some, and furthermore reduced the gap between them and the ones they didn't topple. If there were no cash only content, that would never happen. Satisfied?

No, because you are fundamentally wrong.

Your argument is based on the assumption that players will follow some non-existent rule that you made up, and that they know nothing about. It is entirely subjective, and relies on the absurd notion, that you (or player 1) should win.


Your whole argument was that while A is better than B, and B is better than C, the C guys started using premium D, to beat the B guys, and if they couldn't use D, they would have to keep using C and lose like they were supposed to.

That's just nonsense. Who says they HAVE to keep using a less effective tactic? They are free to use A at any time, which is even better than D.

In fact - if you were planning to win, your goal would be to beat the A guys, since for all you care, EVERYONE might be an A guy - there is no rule in the game that says they can't - just your assumption that they won't. And from the perspective of someone who is preparing to beat the A team, it matters not if the enemy is using A, or the premium B+ which is worse than A. Hell - as far as he is concerned, his "premium" opponents are using a tactic inferior to the one he was already prepared to beat - his job just got easier


And no - I'm not implying that everyone HAS to use the vastly superior A, when using B or C is much more satisfying to them. They are free to use B and C. The problem is with people, who knowingly, and deliberately use a weaker tactic, and EXPECT the resto of the world not to use the stronger tactic against them.

You get hung up on people using a premium tactic more powerful than the one they were using before, when all this time, they could have been using a vastly more powerful tactic, and you'd be doubly screwed, no lube.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

N0MAD, on 26 June 2014 - 12:34 AM, said:

So you post an example of the most Bugged/exploitable mech in game with all the bells and whistles traveling at 150kph with a NZ ping and you say its more effective?
Seems legit bro.

Doing fine in Jagers too so... yeah it does seem legit

The argument was about paying to win... you dont need to pay real world money for that raven.

Bro

Edited by Keira_NZ, 26 June 2014 - 01:42 AM.

[Kilo 40]

N0MAD, on 25 June 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

My argument is about P2W mechanics, not about clans.

I didn't say your argument was about clans.

Quote

I still maintain that in any game where you have items that are not cosmetic that are available for $ and not available for ingame currency are P2W. If that makes no commom sense to you so be it.

It makes no common sense. You basically just described "pay2bedifferent", not "pay2win".

Quote

BTW, do you own Clan mechs?

yes

Dunning Kruger Effect, on 26 June 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

Actually, what he said was this

so we are discussing the "some" then aren't we?

[Fut]

Rebas Kradd, on 25 June 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

What? That makes no sense. Of course it does. We're talking about whether Clans are more powerful, and the idea of IS mechs routinely coming out on top would seriously affect your supporting data. What on earth do you mean it doesn't contradict or erode?

This is the point I was dancing around earlier.
Then everybody jumped on me like I was an idiot and not reading the thread.

[R Razor]

Agree with the analysis of the DragonSlayer, it is only available for cash and it's obviously what the tryhards flock to because of the inherent advantages the chassis gives to the spacebar click crowd...............you are wrong about Clan Mechs though.

[Red King]

[WarHippy]

The op is Thomas Covenant all over again. This is the same silly debate from over a year ago about Hero mechs, but at least Thomas eventually gave up trying to persuade people on his ridiculous opinion.

Edited by WarHippy, 26 June 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

WarHippy, on 26 June 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

The op is Thomas Covenant all over again. This is the same silly debate from over a year ago about Hero mechs, but at least Thomas eventually gave up trying to persuade people on his ridiculous opinion.

To be fair, we had to point out the logical fallacies in his arguments for MONTHS though...and eventually just started calling him an idiot every time he opened his mouth.

He was the K-Town mascot for a solid 11 weeks.

[Crixus316]

Does any of this even matter?
Is this thread about P2W, Pay for an advantage, or pay for early access.

I do not own any clan mechs, so I cannot in good faith, say they are P2W or Pay for advantage. The one thing I do know, they die just like any other mech. I found out the hard way, taking out a side torso does not kill a clan mech. Quickly learned the CT's are easy to hit even when viewed from the side. So P2W, no.

Pay for advantage, no. You could spend your money upgrading a POS 2 button mouse to a game mouse, and get more advantage from it.

Pay for early access, yes. Since the same mechs will become available for C-bills.

Would I do better in a clan mech, don't know. I intend to wait until they are available for C-bills. I will save RL money for upgrades to my game rig.

[AlmightyAeng]

Mr Bigglesworth, on 26 June 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Does any of this even matter?
Is this thread about P2W, Pay for an advantage, or pay for early access.

The problem is that the OP can't seem to see the distinction between those.

[RussianWolf]

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 June 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

You are only using "raw data" and therefore only half assing it. Raw data is well and nice but until you cop a dire wolf prime. Slap a 2 erppc and 2 gauss meta build in it and drive this supposedly "OP" mech with its "OP meta build" in a pug game....and get wrecked by a jenner because you only go 48kph and your team left you behind to die for 3 matches in a row THEN you can come on here and talk to ME about pay 2 win.

You know what I drive the most out my clan mechs? This. Know why I wreck face in it? because i drove THIS for months and months before clan mechs dropped. I have something called EXPERIENCE with that build and therefore knew how that warhawk was going to perform before it even got here. Tell me what exactly is pay to win about this again? I can wreck dam near as hard in that Awesome as I can in my Warhawk. But if we went by just "raw data" instead of actual experience in said mechs both of those builds should be complete shat and i should only be driving my pay to win metabuild direwolf correct?

This build may be better though http://mwo.smurfy-ne...067a75d9386b0e9

[xXBagheeraXx]

Keira_NZ, on 25 June 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

see...
Clan Autocannons so far arent better than IS ones
Clan Lights are SLOOOOOWWWWW
Most Clan chassis fix weapons into arms only making them easier than an IS mech to disarm
Only one Clan mech gets ECM for shielding teammates and that mech only hits 97kph and cannot be made faster. IS ECM chassis can hit 150.2 plus
Clan Beam weapons are hotter and need a longer ON TARGET time to transfer all their damage potential.
Most clan mechs mount weapons below the shoulder so arent as protected by terrain if they want to return fire.

Clan machines get access to 1/2ton ammo
Clan Mechs have awesome Streaks
Clan mechs have an instant target break perk
Clan mechs get CASE as standard
Clan mechs dont die from XL side torso destruction
The Clan get one light mech that can carry 3 AMS systems

Those pros and cons are, at least for now, pretty balanced.
They are sparse on ECM and AMS, concentrate it all into one light slowish machine that, when it goes down takes the lot with it. IS teams can spread the gear around.
They are slow and easy to catch out in the open and out flank
They have a twin Gauss/Twin PPC machine BUT its ponderous and even though it has CASE thats USELESS as its the gauss weapon itself that goes bang, not the ammo and Gauss cannons go boom alot!

They really aren't, CURRENTLY, the super weapons required to make them a PAY to WIN because winning is NOT guaranteed because you have a clan mech... at times its quite the opposite!

My Raven "Ebon Crow" with 2 ERLL, max Double Heatsinks, ECM, Adv Zoom, Sensor Range, 360 Target Retention, Target Decay, 150.2kph speed and Matt black paint is WAY more effective than the Clan machines I've used or fought against so far.

Actually is mechs can get the radar deprevation right? As its a module.

Clan streaks actually kinda SUCK. They fire incredibly slow.

and firing clan lasers is like firing THESE

[AlmightyAeng]

xXBagheeraXx, on 26 June 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

Actually is mechs can get the radar deprevation right? As its a module.

Correct. It's on my IS mechs now.

[Mercules]

Mercules, on 25 June 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

I am sorry, but you apparently need to wander back through a Logics course. That was not a False Equivalence. I am comparing two very comparable classes to each other, Mechs and Mechs. You can compare IS Mechs to Clan Mechs just like you can compare a Fuji Apple to a Gala Apple. A Fuji apple is crisp and sweet with a bit of a pear flavor to it. Gala on the other hand is a more mellow sweet like a vanilla bean.

Despite clan mechs having slightly better systems they have less customization than IS mechs. In practice it works out that this balances them out against IS mechs. Notice I said "In practice". On paper, in Smurfy, they completely look like they outclass IS mechs but in actual use against me and by me I can anecdotal, but with experience since Close Beta, say that they are reasonably balanced.

Your theory is that Clan Mechs are pay to win. Your supporting statements appear to be:
P2W is access to something via money that grants you an advantage.
Clan mechs require you to pay to use them (for now).
Clan mechs give you an advantage.

This is a very VALID argument. The issue is that in order for your theory to be true your argument not only has to be valid, which it is, but the supporting statements also have to be true.

Clan mechs give you an advantage is not true. Especially if we consider what the definition of an advantage is in regards to this game. A 65 ton mech gives you an advantage over a 60 ton mech. But the advantage is not measurable enough to be significant enough to say that the game is out of balance. If ANY small increase is an advantage then camo and paint colors are P2W because on certain maps you will blend in an infinitesimal amount better than the next mech. So there is a threshold where an advantage becomes significant enough that we can state that it has made it easier for someone to win IN ALL REASONABLE SITUATIONS.

Clan Mechs Reguire you to pay to use them is a temporary truth. At this very moment you must pay money to utilize Clan Mechs. However that truth will fade very quickly as the weeks advance. This truth will become less and less true until it is negated. Because of that all paying for them does is allow some people to use them now, everyone will have access to them which mean you WILL Have access to them and so you do not in fact HAVE to pay to use them, you can wait and pay C-Bills

P2W is not defined as access to something via money that grants you an advantage. Your narrow definition is not the typical definition of P2W. Instead P2W is typically defined as, "Something bought in a game unavailable through means other than via premium currency, aka real money, that confers a significant advantage not accessible by other means." So, "I can't buy mech X." is not P2W if that mech does not confer a significant advantage, can not be accessed by means other than paying for it, OR does not have an equivalent comparable to it. Your definition is incomplete. So advantage becomes your Middle Term you are distributing between two supporting statements but the issue is that P2W is not JUST an advantage so while the distribution is fine the statement itself is false.

OP still hasn't bothered to respond to my post explaining where his conclusions were falling apart. That one got ignored with a "I didn't bother to read the rest of your post" reply.

[Bobzilla]

They'll be viewed by some as p2w until their cbill relase. Arguing about it won't have them acclerate their time line, it just makes future early realse packages seem more worth it. P2W talk will actually advertise and promote future sales of the same. The marketing team thanks you greatly for convicing others that they need to purchase future packages.

[qki]

@Mercules - I'm waiting too, get in line

[Roland]

Mercules, on 26 June 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

OP still hasn't bothered to respond to my post explaining where his conclusions were falling apart. That one got ignored with a "I didn't bother to read the rest of your post" reply.

I just read through that and it doesn't really seem to combat the notion of clan mechs being P2W, other than effectively making the suggestion that they do not convey an advantage. While that is certainly the case for the majority of clan mechs, there appear to be a few outliers which can be perceived as being advantageous compared to mechs which are currently available for in-game currency.

I applaud you in you though in your recognition that the idea of being available for in-game currency at some point in the future does not actually impact the determination of P2W currently. Many do not seem willing or able to grasp that idea.

[xXBagheeraXx]

VompoVompatti, on 26 June 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

Yeah I don't have many posts but don't judge me for it.

Ask yourself what mech would you use if you had all of them available to you. Maybe do a list of top 5. How many of those are clan mechs and why?

Fafnir

Cause heavy gauss.

[Koniving]

The real reasoning you see more Dragon Slayers than Victor 9S is pretty simple.
Dragon Slayers give a 30% cbill bonus.

Why play for chump change, when you can play for chump change + 30%?