45 replies to this topic

[Fut]

R Razor, on 26 June 2014 - 03:49 AM, said:

I'm specifically talking about how it fires through tunnel roofs, building walls, in the garage on Crimson Strait etc...........

Came into the thread expecting to see more QQ about LRMs, and a call for an AMS Buff - but I've got to say, I can get behind this request 100%. AMS should not be shooting at impossible Missiles, make it work properly already, PGI.

[R Razor]

wanderer, on 26 June 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

I think you missed the point- that being that MWO doesn't detect solid objects over your head and treats weapons as if you had nothing there at all. AMS is the auto-fire version of why this causes problems, LRM pathing is another example of the same "Wut? There's a MOUNTAIN up there?" issue.

No, you missed the point Sir..........it is YOUR responsibility to know if there is a solid object over your head before you press the lurm button........you have a CHOICE. This thread is about AMS and how it fires whether there is cover or not and you have NO CHOICE about whether it fires or not. If PGI is not competent enough to rectify that coding issue then at least put a toggle (as others have suggested) so that those of us that do keep track of our surroundings have the option of turning it off when we're under cover like that.

l33tworks, on 26 June 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

Anyone else worried people will just toggle AMS when they hear incoming missle and turn it off for any other time, disregarding the protection of others on the team entirely.

Not really any different that what a lot of players do now anyway when they hide until the end hoping to rack up some easy kills or run from the enemy and leave their team at a disadvantage is it?

[Blacksoul1987]

l33tworks, on 26 June 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

Anyone else worried people will just toggle AMS when they hear incoming missle and turn it off for any other time, disregarding the protection of others on the team entirely.

I certainly won't do that, the only reason I even bring AMS is to support the team

[Wolfways]

I've never understood why AMS go through cover above the mech when missiles can't, so yes i agree it should be fixed or toggled even though i personally don't use AMS.

R Razor, on 26 June 2014 - 03:49 AM, said:

and the need for AMS to be carried by IS mechs to survive

Btw OP, it doesn't help your case if you state things like the BS i quoted above.

[Satan n stuff]

Willard Phule, on 26 June 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

Let's face it, LRMS simply are not fair in the PUG queue at this time.

Why, you may ask? Because there IS NO SEPARATION BY SKILL (ie: Elo) in the PUG queue at this time. In any given match, 80% of the people playing are new players. They don't know how to lock targets, they can't shoot without stopping and zooming in and have NO CLUE about using cover to avoid LRMs.

This game is geared toward the new players...people that have NO CLUE what Battletech the lore surrounding it is. It is completely unfair that a new player can't wander out in the open, completely zoomed in, without getting killed by LRMS.

It's time to nerf EVERYTHING that might possibly hurt a new player. They're the cash cows. They're the ones dropping big bucks on every cash grab PGI puts out there. Let's reorient the game toward THEM.

Don't know what you're seeing ingame but I rarely see new players even when there's hardly anyone online.

[Felio]

It still shoots down missiles it can't see, doesn't it? So it's fine if it fires at missiles targeting teammates above you on the garage.

It sounds like we want it to not fire at missiles that are going to miss. They'd have to add a system to try to predict the future, and I don't think they are going to do that, even if they pushed the computing client-side. There would always be cases of it failing anyway.

We have half-ton ammo now, just take a little extra. I almost never run out of ammo even with only 1 ton anyway.

[wanderer]

Quote

it is YOUR responsibility to know if there is a solid object over your head before you press the lurm button

Let me put this into elementary terminology for you, sir.

MWO has terrain detection issues that effect AMS and LRM- because MWO ignores them.

LRMs path in an arc determined strictly by range to target- that is, a flat arc from 299m-0m on a target (locked or not), and the high "indirect" arc from there on in. Fire LRMs at an indirect target under 300m, and your missiles will simply launch into the intervening terrain harmlessly.

Likewise, MWO will ignore a roof over your head, meaning any shot over 300m splatters harmlessly even if you have a direct LOS and don't need the high-arc of IDF to begin with. It's the lack of terrain detection that causes this problem- you can't even dumb-fire LRMs down a long tunnel because MWO simply derps and fires them into the ceiling, even if firing "flat" would deliver a hit. Likewise, AMS does it's roof-scrubbing (which, BTW does damage missiles passing by) routine because again, MWO doesn't into terrain recognition. Streaks suffer much the same way- intervening terrain that a missile could go over or in some cases under is ignored for the shortest path, causing the "automatic" system to fail.

[Madw0lf]

wanderer, on 26 June 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

Let me put this into elementary terminology for you, sir.

MWO has terrain detection issues that effect AMS and LRM- because MWO ignores them.

LRMs path in an arc determined strictly by range to target- that is, a flat arc from 299m-0m on a target (locked or not), and the high "indirect" arc from there on in. Fire LRMs at an indirect target under 300m, and your missiles will simply launch into the intervening terrain harmlessly.

Likewise, MWO will ignore a roof over your head, meaning any shot over 300m splatters harmlessly even if you have a direct LOS and don't need the high-arc of IDF to begin with. It's the lack of terrain detection that causes this problem- you can't even dumb-fire LRMs down a long tunnel because MWO simply derps and fires them into the ceiling, even if firing "flat" would deliver a hit. Likewise, AMS does it's roof-scrubbing (which, BTW does damage missiles passing by) routine because again, MWO doesn't into terrain recognition. Streaks suffer much the same way- intervening terrain that a missile could go over or in some cases under is ignored for the shortest path, causing the "automatic" system to fail.

And thats exactly how I would expect LRMs to behave in the BT universe (And our own, to an extent). Theres still a huge difference between an automated system firing when it wont be effective and wasting ammo, and a manual system, whos limits you full well understand, being fired when it wont be effective and wasting ammo.

Should the game also not let you fire your ballistics/lazors when theyll hit a hill?

[R Razor]

wanderer, on 26 June 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

Let me put this into elementary terminology for you, sir.

MWO has terrain detection issues that effect AMS and LRM- because MWO ignores them.

LRMs path in an arc determined strictly by range to target- that is, a flat arc from 299m-0m on a target (locked or not), and the high "indirect" arc from there on in. Fire LRMs at an indirect target under 300m, and your missiles will simply launch into the intervening terrain harmlessly.

Likewise, MWO will ignore a roof over your head, meaning any shot over 300m splatters harmlessly even if you have a direct LOS and don't need the high-arc of IDF to begin with. It's the lack of terrain detection that causes this problem- you can't even dumb-fire LRMs down a long tunnel because MWO simply derps and fires them into the ceiling, even if firing "flat" would deliver a hit. Likewise, AMS does it's roof-scrubbing (which, BTW does damage missiles passing by) routine because again, MWO doesn't into terrain recognition. Streaks suffer much the same way- intervening terrain that a missile could go over or in some cases under is ignored for the shortest path, causing the "automatic" system to fail.

If you wish to use terms like "elementary" then I suppose I have no resort but to respond on a pre-k level for you. YOU are responsible for determining whether you can effectively utilize your LRM's, not PGI. LRM's are the in game equivalent of a ballistic missile (think SCUD) whereas SRM's (which travel in the straight line you want your LRM's to use) are more like an ATG (think TOW, or Hellfire in the case of Streaks). None of that has anything to do with terrain. You know the arc your missiles take, it has nothing to do with terrain detection, it's a function of the weapon system design, long range missiles fire in arcs and not a straight line, you just seem to wish them to change so that you can use them as long range SSRM's..........tough.

Wolfways, on 26 June 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

Btw OP, it doesn't help your case if you state things like the BS i quoted above.

So you don't believe that the IS mech increases its survivability by utilizing an AMS system? Maybe I used a touch of hyperbole by saying it was necessary to survive, but it's not far off given the quantities of LRM's found on the battlefield since the clan drop.

In any case, the original point, being that AMS should not automatically fire through ceilings, walls etc, still remains valid.

Edited by R Razor, 26 June 2014 - 06:12 AM.

[Wolfways]

R Razor, on 26 June 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

So you don't believe that the IS mech increases its survivability by utilizing an AMS system? Maybe I used a touch of hyperbole by saying it was necessary to survive, but it's not far off given the quantities of LRM's found on the battlefield since the clan drop.

It depends on the ability of the pilot. I have seen no need for AMS for a long time now.
I am starting to think that this is a good reason to have a players ELO rating shown with every post they make, so instead of players automatically agreeing with someone who says something like "LRM's are OP" they can see the posters low ELO and maybe say to themselves "I'm in a similar situation so i should get better" instead of just agreeing with the complaining player.

But you specifically stated that IS mechs need AMS, inferring that IS mechs cannot do well against clan mechs, which is imo just wrong. I may have a clan tag but (for now at least) i only have IS mechs and they still do as well as they did before clans.

Quote

In any case, the original point, being that AMS should not automatically fire through ceilings, walls etc, still remains valid.

I agree with that completely.

[R Razor]

R Razor, on 26 June 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

If you wish to use terms like "elementary" then I suppose I have no resort but to respond on a pre-k level for you. YOU are responsible for determining whether you can effectively utilize your LRM's, not PGI. LRM's are the in game equivalent of a ballistic missile (think SCUD) whereas SRM's (which travel in the straight line you want your LRM's to use) are more like an ATG (think TOW, or Hellfire in the case of Streaks). None of that has anything to do with terrain. You know the arc your missiles take, it has nothing to do with terrain detection, it's a function of the weapon system design, long range missiles fire in arcs and not a straight line, you just seem to wish them to change so that you can use them as long range SSRM's..........tough.




So you don't believe that the IS mech increases its survivability by utilizing an AMS system? Maybe I used a touch of hyperbole by saying it was necessary to survive, but it's not far off given the quantities of LRM's found on the battlefield since the clan drop.

In any case, the original point, being that AMS should not automatically fire through ceilings, walls etc, still remains valid.

As I said, maybe I used a bit of hyperbole..........that doesn't change two basic facts.......

1, there are more LRM's on average in a match today than there were before clans and it is harder to avoid them now as they tend to arrive from multiple locations.

2. AMS should not be firing through roofs, walls etc.......

[xXBagheeraXx]

Would be REALLY awesome if IS mechs got 2k rounds per 1 ton like the clans do...yeah its not canon or whatever but.....its BADLY needed. And I dont think I would see any complaints...

[Wolfways]

R Razor, on 26 June 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

As I said, maybe I used a bit of hyperbole..........that doesn't change two basic facts.......

1, there are more LRM's on average in a match today than there were before clans and it is harder to avoid them now as they tend to arrive from multiple locations.

2. AMS should not be firing through roofs, walls etc.......

You do know you aren't supposed to be able to avoid LRM's right? But you can avoid them because PGI made nearly all the maps for close-range combat and nerfed LRM range and speed.
Also, if you are getting attacked from multiple directions you either pushed too far (your fault) or your teams flank collapsed (your teams fault). Being outplayed is not the fault of one weapon.

[Trauglodyte]

R Razor, on 26 June 2014 - 03:49 AM, said:

Given the preponderance of LRM's being carried into battle (seems like every clan mech carries at least 20 tubes haha) and the need for AMS to be carried by IS mechs to survive........are there any plans to fix the issues it has had for the past several months (or longer)?

I'm specifically talking about how it fires through tunnel roofs, building walls, in the garage on Crimson Strait etc...........

With all of the missiles flying around in game these days, a ton of AMS ammo is generally depleted before you ever really even get into battle.........as a case in point, I was in a Stalker Misery, in the parking garage on Crimson Strait, with zero missiles targeted at me the entire game however I ran out of AMS ammunition because my AMS was constantly firing through the roof trying to shoot down missiles targeted on team mates that were on top of the structure.

This has been broken for a long time, I would think that with the tweaks PGI has made to LRMs off and on over the past year this is something that they would have addressed.

I fully support this. I also fully support AMS firing at inbound LRMs when they're not targeting said mech (ie. AMS helping friends is a no go).

[Lyoto Machida]

LRMs? I pulled all of them off of my Clan mechs (except for my Warhawk . Don't find them to be that effective in comparison with IS LRMs. SRMs are way more fun now.

[Sean von Steinike]

It would be nice if the AMS behaved properly for sure.....

[Turboferret]

R Razor, on 26 June 2014 - 03:49 AM, said:

With all of the missiles flying around in game these days, a ton of AMS ammo is generally depleted before you ever really even get into battle.........as a case in point, I was in a Stalker Misery, in the parking garage on Crimson Strait, with zero missiles targeted at me the entire game however I ran out of AMS ammunition because my AMS was constantly firing through the roof trying to shoot down missiles targeted on team mates that were on top of the structure.

Wait, so you DON'T want your AMS to protect teammates as well?
Because your AMS is protecting teammates up top when it's firing like that.

[R Razor]

Azrael1911, on 26 June 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Wait, so you DON'T want your AMS to protect teammates as well?
Because your AMS is protecting teammates up top when it's firing like that.

I don't want my AMS firing through solid objects..........if my teammates are on the other side of that solid object then I feel for them but I shouldn't be able to reach them.

[TSB101]

I would not expect this to happen as I am not too sure how practical it is from a performance standpoint. Currently the code for AMS is something along the lines of:

Are any missile objects within 90 meters?

Yes? Shoot AMS at closest Missile object. Repeat.

No? Do not shoot AMS. Repeat.

-----

What you are proposing is:

Are any missile objects within 90 Meters?

Yes? Can you draw LOS to closest missile? Yes? Shoot. Repeat. Can't draw LOS to closest? Check next missile object. Repeat.

No? Don't shoot AMS. Repeat.

---

I think the part where you have to check for LOS to the closest missile is pretty processor/gpu intensive.
If there are 200 missiles in the air, each mech's AMS has to do this calculation, for each missile, for each 'tick' on the server. That is A LOT of calculations. It isn't so bad because you can weed out unnecessary calculations with if/else statements but it will still add some overhead.

From a programmer/performance standpoint I would probably add a on/off toggle for AMS and call it a day. LMAO.



Disclaimer: I program but I do not program 3D games. Might be talking out of my ass.

Edited by TSB101, 26 June 2014 - 08:30 PM.

[Madw0lf]

TSB101, on 26 June 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

I would not expect this to happen as I am not too sure how practical it is from a performance standpoint. Currently the code for AMS is something along the lines of:

Are any missile objects within 90 meters?

Yes? Shoot AMS at closest Missile object. Repeat.

No? Do not shoot AMS. Repeat.

-----

What you are proposing is:

Are any missile objects within 90 Meters?

Yes? Can you draw LOS to closest missile? Yes? Shoot. Repeat. Can't draw LOS to closest? Check next missile object. Repeat.

No? Don't shoot AMS. Repeat.

---

I think the part where you have to check for LOS to the closest missile is pretty processor/gpu intensive.
If there are 200 missiles in the air, each mech's AMS has to do this calculation, for each missile, for each 'tick' on the server. That is A LOT of calculations. It isn't so bad because you can weed out unnecessary calculations with if/else statements but it will still add some overhead.

From a programmer/performance standpoint I would probably add a on/off toggle for AMS and call it a day. LMAO.



Disclaimer: I program but I do not program 3D games. Might be talking out of my ass.

A toggle would be the fastest, most reliable to implement. Would add the least load on the servers/connections. Though im sure it would be too much to handle for some people....