22 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

So with the Clanners invading the IS, they salvaged their tech and started reengineering it rather fast.
Why was it then so amazingly hard to do this with old lostech stuff, which the IS did had components of too?

[Nova Latios Storm]

No idea sadly to say.

[SnagaDance]

The IS had actually been busy with that since ~3025. Please note that ~3000 the IS was truly sliding into a dark age. Full feudal trappings with scarce mechs being handed down from parent to child.

Only things like the finding and spreading of the Helm memory core and the founding of the NAIS managed to turn this tide.

Things like DHS, the ERLL, MPL, FF etc. (in other words all of those advanced techs we now have in the game) started to spread around in the 25 year period of 3025-3050. With most stuff going to elite units. Manufacturing was also still catching up and was having trouble with not all of the techs being available to all factions. Iirc only the DC had access to DHS for instance.and the FS the ERLL (or maybe the other way around).

The arrival of the Clans lead to sharing of knowledge and crash course development programs, with an industry on full war footing to boot. The Clans also brought stuff that had never been contemplated before. An LBX in another calibre than 10? Streaks in larger quantities? etc. etc.
Though nothing truly revolutionary new, so the IS was able to further develop the stuff they had already been busy on, and thus make their own (inferior IS) versions of Clan Weaponry.

This still took a long time though. Most tech easily took 5 to 10 years to get into actual production. With the nation that made the breakthrough often largely hoarding all that tech for its own military.

[Lily from animove]

SnagaDance, on 17 June 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

The IS had actually been busy with that since ~3025. Please note that ~3000 the IS was truly sliding into a dark age. Full feudal trappings with scarce mechs being handed down from parent to child.

Only things like the finding and spreading of the Helm memory core and the founding of the NAIS managed to turn this tide.

Things like DHS, the ERLL, MPL, FF etc. (in other words all of those advanced techs we now have in the game) started to spread around in the 25 year period of 3025-3050. With most stuff going to elite units. Manufacturing was also still catching up and was having trouble with not all of the techs being available to all factions. Iirc only the DC had access to DHS for instance.and the FS the ERLL (or maybe the other way around).

The arrival of the Clans lead to sharing of knowledge and crash course development programs, with an industry on full war footing to boot. The Clans also brought stuff that had never been contemplated before. An LBX in another calibre than 10? Streaks in larger quantities? etc. etc.
Though nothing truly revolutionary new, so the IS was able to further develop the stuff they had already been busy on, and thus make their own (inferior IS) versions of Clan Weaponry.

This still took a long time though. Most tech easily took 5 to 10 years to get into actual production. With the nation that made the breakthrough often largely hoarding all that tech for its own military.

Ah ok, thx for this info

[3Xtr3m3]

Put the blame on Comstar.
They kept a strangle hold on communications. They used that to be aware of advances and to stifle technologies that could disrupt their own plans for the IS. When the Clans apeared in futuristic machines, Comstar had no choice but to open the archives and help the Great Houses get up to speed, technologically, to stop the Clans plans.
All according to the Words of some bloke named Blake.
Someone else may point out that the advances being made by the FedSuns, in spite of the efforts of Comstar, helped push forward the Clan timeline.

[Exilyth]

Fun fact: The helm memory core included technological advances like three-field crop rotation.

Let that go through your head for a moment... the IS forgot basic things like three-field crop rotation, stuff which is common knowledge for us since mediveal times.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Exilyth, on 19 June 2014 - 05:28 AM, said:

Fun fact: The helm memory core included technological advances like three-field crop rotation.

Let that go through your head for a moment... the IS forgot basic things like three-field crop rotation, stuff which is common knowledge for us since mediveal times.

Common knowledge - but not always common practice.

[3Xtr3m3]

And you wouldn't believe the historical precedents
Moors calculated the distance at Earths equator.. missed by 20 miles circa 2 Century B.C.?
VS
Some sailors with Columbus thought they would sail off the edge of the planet Circa 1492.

The Romans had a genius doctor whose notes were the basis of Medicine and surgery circa third century
VS
Modern Medicine finally went beyond those notes only after the invention of the X-Ray machine(Floroscope?) circa 20th century

Charles Dickens penned his stories using a goos quill pen, circa mid 19th century
VS
Archeologists found a functionally Bic Stic equivelant pen in Egyptian digs

A recent Nova/National Geographic special showcased a greek mechanical device that accurately tracked the positions of the sun moon and planets. Including Eclipses. Device was manufactured B.C.

TL:DR The massive loss of knowledge has historical precedent between 5th and 15th Centuries. (Dark Ages)

[Hex Pallett]

True. There's is this Chinese artifact, Sword of Goujian, that was forged sometime around 500BC. It was complete rust-free when discovered and could slice through a stack of A4 papers under its own weight. The forging technique used to made the sword was so ridiculously advance that NOBODY has managed to replicate that.

Similar stuff include chariots that include a MECHANICALLY controlled pointer that always indicates north and earthquake detectors. Man, speaking of technology loss, we had all sorts of stuff like that in China.

3Xtr3m3, on 17 June 2014 - 03:55 AM, said:

Put the blame on Comstar.

Comstar! It's like Comcast but in the future! Seriously, the whole net neutrality thing might be the first step toward this direction....

[Exilyth]

3Xtr3m3, on 20 June 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

A recent Nova/National Geographic special showcased a greek mechanical device that accurately tracked the positions of the sun moon and planets. Including Eclipses. Device was manufactured B.C.

This one: http://en.wikipedia....thera_mechanism ?

[Gremlich Johns]

Exilyth, on 21 June 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

This one: http://en.wikipedia....thera_mechanism ?

What usually keeps civilizations behind is Religion - So, Constar as the culprit is apt

[StompingOnTanks]

Gremlich Johns, on 21 June 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

What usually keeps civilizations behind is Religion - So, Constar as the culprit is apt

As much as I don't want to start a war... Haven't there been plenty of religious civilizations with advanced tech? Even America used to be pretty religious (not so much anymore for better or for worse) and we are one of the most advanced nations on Earth.

[3Xtr3m3]

Exilyth, on 21 June 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

This one: http://en.wikipedia....thera_mechanism ?

The very same, nice catch.

Gremlich Johns, on 21 June 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

What usually keeps civilizations behind is Religion - So, Constar as the culprit is apt

Depends on your definition of the word "Religion", On one hand to some people that means God and teachers of laws and followers, everything from top to bottom. To me when you say "Religion", it means human run organizations of leaders, laws, and buildings etc. but not necessarily God. If you mean something like what I think of when you say "Religion", then I agree. There is plenty of precedent to support that conclusion.

StompingOnTanks, on 22 June 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

As much as I don't want to start a war... Haven't there been plenty of religious civilizations with advanced tech? Even America used to be pretty religious (not so much anymore for better or for worse) and we are one of the most advanced nations on Earth.

Actually America is by law anti-Religious. the constitution establishes clear bounderies between Church and State. Fuzzing, or moving those bounderies has always invoked large concern amongst leaders and populous. But by law we also recognize and invoke God into all aspects of our nation, Governance included. Examples include mottos, the depiction of Gods eye on our currency,
No one Religion(Church) has ever held a solid lock on our nation as has ben the case in Europe at the time of our founding, and our Founders tried to insure that it never would.
If you are meaning times in our past when being God-Fearing was more important, then I agree.

Many, many large chunks of the laws written at the start of our Nation were directly based on our Founders understanding of the laws put forth in the Bible. From the Ten Commandments, to the definitions of Murder and its punishments. So, yes, in that aspect, America was founded as a "Christian" nation. Its shining moments can be shown as examples of it following that dictate. Its shamefull parts of its history can be shown in the light of Not adhereing to those principles.

To bring this back to Mechwarrior. A reason that the franchise has been around in its various forms for four decades, is the massive inclusion of all forms of knowledge, from culture to science to philosophy to religion, and on and on. The deeper you look, the more you see and learn about the game, and life. Everyone here has presented valid points, but not easily the whole picture. religion has had good and bad influences throughout history. For better or worse that is the truth.

My suggestion, go blow something up, in game of course, and leave the deep thoughts for another day.

[Hex Pallett]

StompingOnTanks, on 22 June 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

As much as I don't want to start a war... Haven't there been plenty of religious civilizations with advanced tech? Even America used to be pretty religious (not so much anymore for better or for worse) and we are one of the most advanced nations on Earth.

The religious status and the advancement of technology are, for the most part, two separate entities. Calling religion the reason that pushes technology forward is as much an overstatement as saying religion keeps a civilization behind. I'm pretty sure it is not God who made US dollar the dominant international currency, nor did he create atom bombs or win the Cold War for the western front.

But regardless, as atheist as I am, to deny religion as a major course of human history would be blatantly arrogant. I'm gonna take a wild guess that in earlier development of civilization, ignorance breeds religion, and a whole bunch of ignorant people entitle power to whatever church there is - not just political power, but also financial power and various kinds of resource. And it is the financial power/resources that pushed forward the earlier development of science and technology.

I'm pretty sure that nowadays both technology and economy system have developed far enough that religion could neither control nor sustain. Religion remains a major tie to hold the "lower, major half" of a country's population together - which is probably why every American president, the greatest public figure in many senses, is Christian - but if you ask me, it is money and science that made America what it is. Or China. Or Japan, or Russia, or any major international power.

You don't see Vatican being a part of major international commits, do you?

[Egomane]

Ok... this church and religion stuff better stops here.

This type of talk usually only results in bad blood on forums and I don't want to see it here. Please note that it is also against the code of conduct to discuss these things, for this very same reason.

[Vanguard319]

Lily from animove, on 17 June 2014 - 01:45 AM, said:

So with the Clanners invading the IS, they salvaged their tech and started reengineering it rather fast.
Why was it then so amazingly hard to do this with old lostech stuff, which the IS did had components of too?

I think part of it is that the clans had about 300 years to develop superior metallurgy and materials science. Just because Inner Sphere scientists can reverse-engineer clan tech weapons, and may even understand the properties of the materials used in their construction, it doesn't mean that they understand how to replicate the materials in large enough quantities for common use. (One reason Carbon fiber is still very expensive compared to say Aluminium is because no one has figured out a method of producing it for pennies per foot, it's the same reason you don't see too many structures made of Graphene, despite it being known as one of the strongest materials in existence.)

Edited by Vanguard319, 22 June 2014 - 01:17 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Lily from animove, on 17 June 2014 - 01:45 AM, said:

So with the Clanners invading the IS, they salvaged their tech and started reengineering it rather fast.
Why was it then so amazingly hard to do this with old lostech stuff, which the IS did had components of too?

Because comstar has a special division called ROM who sabotaged attempts to revive old star league stuff, so they'd have a monopoly on technology, while any mechwarrior on the frontlines could potentially take part in a successful battle, and simply have his techs replace the ancient medium lasers on his atlas with salvaged ER medium lasers.

[Lily from animove]

So basically the Comstar was maintaining the "Status Quo" with serveral methods for some own reasons (and balancing the inner sphere), until the clanners invasion anyways screwed their Status Quo and they couldn't care less anymoe about losing it anyways.

StompingOnTanks, on 22 June 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

As much as I don't want to start a war... Haven't there been plenty of religious civilizations with advanced tech? Even America used to be pretty religious (not so much anymore for better or for worse) and we are one of the most advanced nations on Earth.

[redacted]

Si the comstar would be something similar as the United Nations or NATO? If we would have to compare it to the real world.

Edited by Egomane, 23 June 2014 - 05:25 AM.
I told you all to leave the discussion of religion out of this thread

[Hex Pallett]

Egomane, on 22 June 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

Ok... this church and religion stuff better stops here.

This type of talk usually only results in bad blood on forums and I don't want to see it here. Please note that it is also against the code of conduct to discuss these things, for this very same reason.

Yeah...the last time religion was brought up to the table it didn't end well

HAIL THE EMPEROR

[3Xtr3m3]

Ouch, Message recieved Egomane.


To reiterate.
The IS was unable to advance technologically at the same pace as the followers of Kerensky because of Wars and the reasons for Wars.
Once a sufficient threat to the IS appeared in the form of the Clans, cooperation amongst the various IS Factions greatly increased.
Think of the analogy of the Largish bone being fought over by various dogs. None can gain a big enough advantage to claim the bone for themselves. But once the threat of a Wolf (or other large wild predator of you imaginations preference) appears, the dogs Unite and act to keep the new threat from defeating them all. This Synergy between the dogs, who individually could not secure the bone for themselves, is sufficient to deny the New Predator the bone.
I believe the term Force Majeur is a reference to this.