21 replies to this topic

[Kh0rn]

Hello every one we the Black Steel mercenary unit are looking into hosting a non meta tournament. This means that the meta builds and such are forbidden too be used in any length of the tournament. But before we even consider hosting this we need too see who would be interested in taking part any groups , clans or such. If you would like too speak too Carl or myself we are on Comstar TS in the BlackSteel channel. As for now this is just too fin out who would be interested.

[Joseph Mallan]

Inerested, but time and day will become an issue in a bit over a week as I will be Afternoons for the summer.

[Xeraphale]

And what exactly would constitute meta?

[Barantor]

It would probably be best if you define what meta builds are before you ask the interest, because that might be the deciding factor of some groups joining.

Also this is probably going to be moved since it is a community event.

[Kh0rn]

Here is a short list.

Victor with 2 PPC 2 AC5 , or Gauss
Highlander same as the victor.
Jager mech with double AC 20 or Double Gauss.
Cicada with double PPC
Cataphract with same build as the Victor and Highlanders.
Raven with 2 ER LL
Banshee with 3 AC5 and 2 PPC

We are looking at possibly allowing the Shadow hawk in since it can only mount 1 PPC and 2 AC5 but we will update if it changes. Also a side note no Artillery or airstrikes are allowed. This is still up for change tho so its not 100% final.

[Rhaythe]

Ravens with dual LL are meta? Common, yes, but I never really classified them as meta. I thought it was nice that the Raven finally had a viable alternative build that wasn't 3 mediums, 2 streaks.

Edited by Rhaythe, 04 June 2014 - 03:59 AM.

[Kh0rn]

As I stated this is still subject too change and not final.

[-Natural Selection-]

I am pretty sure our guys would.

[topgun505]

Agreed. I fail to see how 2 ERLL which are DOT weapons are in any way meta. The RVN and the CDA don't even have JJ so they can't pop.

Edited by topgun505, 04 June 2014 - 05:07 AM.

[Ihasa]

We've participated in your private matches like this before with you Carl. What we've learned is that eliminating all the meta led to overwhelming missile boating, which wasn't all that fun either. Get some more definitive rules sorted out and you can count Comstar Irregulars in.

[Mr D One]

p0rn, on 04 June 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

Here is a short list.

Victor with 2 PPC 2 AC5 , or Gauss
Highlander same as the victor.
Jager mech with double AC 20 or Double Gauss.
Cicada with double PPC
Cataphract with same build as the Victor and Highlanders.
Raven with 2 ER LL
Banshee with 3 AC5 and 2 PPC

We are looking at possibly allowing the Shadow hawk in since it can only mount 1 PPC and 2 AC5 but we will update if it changes. Also a side note no Artillery or airstrikes are allowed. This is still up for change tho so its not 100% final.

I fully support this Kh0rn. I'm with you.

With F8L.co we have no PPC or Ultra AC5's. You may have up to 2 x AC 2,5, and 10 caliber cannons an 1 X AC20 but you can't mount 2 of the same type in 1 location. This allows the original lore build of the Jager to participate, (2 x AC2, 2 x AC5).

Edited by Dar1ng One, 09 June 2014 - 06:16 AM.

[Carl Avery]

Current tentative list of builds/weapon systems which are not allowed in Black Steel's "No-Cheese Saturdays" (title and day still under consideration) follows. For the purposes of this list, "PPC" includes ERPPCs and "AC5" includes UAC5s. Adding weapons to one of these builds does not exclude it from the list (e.g. 2x PPC + 2x AC5 + 2x SL is still banned; the addition of the SLs don't exempt it). Please note that all consumables (airstrike, artillery strike, coolant flush, and UAV) are also disallowed. All non-consumable modules, however, are presently allowed.

2x PPC + 2x AC5
2x PPC + 1x Gauss
2x PPC + AC10
2x PPC + AC20
1x PPC + 2x Gauss
3x PPC + 1x Gauss
2x Gauss + JJ
3x Gauss
2x PPC + 3x AC5
2x PPC + 1x AC5
1x PPC + 2x AC5 + JJ
2x PPC + ECM
1x PPC + AC20 + JJ
NARC

We're also keeping an eye on the following builds/tech; we suspect that they may need to be banned in the future, but we're going to watch and see what happens in the absence of the previous builds.

2x Gauss
1x PPC + 1x AC10 + JJ
2x AC20
4x AC5
3x AC10
5x LRM5
2x ERLL + ECM
3x ERLL + ECM
TAG
ECM

I should like to point out that the intention is not to continually ban things until we're all fighting with only small lasers. I feel that we've got most of the over-powered weapon systems either already banned or else on the watched list. Well-reasoned suggestions are, however, welcome. (Ihasa, I've got my eye on LRMs in general, but they're too well-established in the lore and canonical builds to ban outright.)

Edited by Carl Avery, 12 June 2014 - 03:00 AM.

[xMintaka]

I find it hilarious that 3x Guass builds and NARC are banned.

It would be FAR easier to say "no pp alpha strikes above 25points" or another figure you prefer.

Triple Guass is a joke build and NARC + LRM is the most easily countered combo in the game.

The idea is good, but needs revising imho.

Edited by Lunatech, 12 June 2014 - 03:13 AM.

[Ihasa]

Carl Avery, on 12 June 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

Current tentative list of builds/weapon systems which are not allowed in Black Steel's "No-Cheese Saturdays" (title and day still under consideration) follows. For the purposes of this list, "PPC" includes ERPPCs and "AC5" includes UAC5s. Adding weapons to one of these builds does not exclude it from the list (e.g. 2x PPC + 2x AC5 + 2x SL is still banned; the addition of the SLs don't exempt it). Please note that all consumables (airstrike, artillery strike, coolant flush, and UAV) are also disallowed. All non-consumable modules, however, are presently allowed.

2x PPC + 2x AC5
2x PPC + 1x Gauss
2x PPC + AC10
2x PPC + AC20
1x PPC + 2x Gauss
3x PPC + 1x Gauss
2x Gauss + JJ
3x Gauss
2x PPC + 3x AC5
2x PPC + 1x AC5
1x PPC + 2x AC5 + JJ
2x PPC + ECM
1x PPC + AC20 + JJ
NARC

We're also keeping an eye on the following builds/tech; we suspect that they may need to be banned in the future, but we're going to watch and see what happens in the absence of the previous builds.

2x Gauss
1x PPC + 1x AC10 + JJ
2x AC20
4x AC5
3x AC10
5x LRM5
2x ERLL + ECM
3x ERLL + ECM
TAG
ECM

I should like to point out that the intention is not to continually ban things until we're all fighting with only small lasers. I feel that we've got most of the over-powered weapon systems either already banned or else on the watched list. Well-reasoned suggestions are, however, welcome. (Ihasa, I've got my eye on LRMs in general, but they're too well-established in the lore and canonical builds to ban outright.)

Hi Carl. Thanks for looking into my concern. I agree with you LRM's are too much a feature weapon system to put in full ban, but I also think the same about some of the cheese & meta builds. Perhaps restrictions would fare better than outright bans. What I was trying to get at earlier was that, with so many weapon combinations banned from before, all that left was lrm boating as the only remaining viable alternative. Choice is good. Give us, the players, a little choice, but just that, a little. Restrictions, rather than bans, will allow for a larger variety of builds and playstyles and every one will find a place to play to compete. Then that in turn will make it more fun. Best of luck, we're waiting to hear more details before giving in a roster but still interested.

Edited by Ihasa, 13 June 2014 - 07:07 AM.

[Carl Avery]

Lunatech, on 12 June 2014 - 03:06 AM, said:

I find it hilarious that 3x Guass builds and NARC are banned.

It would be FAR easier to say "no pp alpha strikes above 25points" or another figure you prefer.

I agree that the triple-Gauss Cataphract isn't that great of a build; the reason we're thinking of banning it is that we're trying to pull the emphasis away from HPPFLD gameplay. Simply banning ~30 PPFLD Alphas, however, would ban the triple-PPC Awesome. This is a problem, not only because this is a classic build (unlike any of the builds on the current ban list, to the best of my knowledge), but also because the triple-PPC Awesome is something of a joke. Again, so is the triple-Gauss 'Phract, but that isn't a canonical build, and so we have no reason to allow it.

[mr bear]

Hey Carl,
Bear here. Did some thinking about this and how about you just disallow "Meta" Mechs. eg. Dragon Slayers, 'Phract 3Ds etc.
Might be easier than having everyone rebuild mechs....

My $0.02.

[Carl Avery]

Hi, Bear. I think that's a reasonable idea; it would indeed be much simpler to disallow the "four cheese chassis." However, this would require banning the Madcat, too, and -- well -- but, Madcat! Besides this, some of our interested people enjoy playing some of the "cheese chassis" with non-cheese builds, e.g. LPL + SRM Victors and AC + LRM Highlanders, and I really wouldn't like to prevent them from using these.

Additionally, it has been brought to my attention that our current proposed ban list has some builds on it which may not be excessively powerful, relative to the average build. As such, I've decided -- for now, at least -- to shorten the ban list back to its original length and see how it goes for a few weeks. It'll also give us time to see what to do about Clan stuff. Things which emerge to be dominant can then, if determined necessary, be added to the ban list for subsequent matches. (I still have my eye on twin-Gauss, boated ACs, and NARC & LRMs.)

I should point out that, contrary to the thread title, this event is not quite a tournament; it is merely a weekly event consisting of private matches with a brief rule set. We may, at some point, host an actual tournament using the same or similar rules, but for now, it's just a regular "No-Cheese Thursday"-type thing. Again, day(s) not yet determined.

So, the current (non-finalized) ruleset is as follows:

Game mode: skirmish
View mode: first-person only
Modules: no consumables allowed*, all other modules allowed
Disallowed builds (adding weapons doesn't exempt builds, and -- for the purposes of this list -- "PPC" includes ERPPCs and "AC5" includes UAC5s):

2x PPC + 2x AC5 + JJ
2x PPC + 1x Gauss + JJ
2x PPC + AC10 + JJ
2x PPC + AC20 + JJ
1x PPC + 2x Gauss + JJ
2x Gauss + JJ
3x PPC + 1x Gauss + JJ
2x PPC + 3x AC5
2x PPC + 1x AC5 + JJ
1x PPC + 2x AC5 + JJ
2x PPC + ECM



* Allowing a single airstrike and/or artillery strike per team per match is still under consideration.

Edited by Carl Avery, 21 June 2014 - 01:47 PM.

[mr bear]

Hey Carl,
The way we run our 12s is to cap Arty/Air Strikes to 3 per team. It seems to work. Doesn't overpower things and makes it more tactical.

[Abivard]

How about simply banning all PP FLD weapons?

Or allowing only a single PP FLD weapon type per mech. This idea I find the most attractive...what would you choose? Gauss, ERPPC, PPC, AC20 something else?

[Ihasa]

Abivard, on 23 June 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

How about simply banning all PP FLD weapons?

Or allowing only a single PP FLD weapon type per mech. This idea I find the most attractive...what would you choose? Gauss, ERPPC, PPC, AC20 something else?

The only drawback I could see to this is it would promote the dual cheese builds like AC40 Jagers or Gausapults, etc.

Otherwise, have a like good sir!