Yes ECM is one of MWO mini games.
Yes it is a huge advantage generally.
4
Does The Team With The Most Ecm Always Win?
Started by Clydewinder, Jun 30 2014 06:17 PM
47 replies to this topic
#21
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Posted 30 June 2014 - 08:28 PM
#22
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Posted 30 June 2014 - 08:30 PM
Jalthibuster, on 30 June 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:
My impression is that it's not that important for victory how many ecm the teams have, except one team got none, regardless how many the other team has. Than you're pretty ****** most times.
If something is such a gamechanger than one side with just ONE of the item and the other with NONE means that the side with ONE has a huge advantage, then something is frigging wrong with the item itself. That should tell you all you need to know.
But you know, PGI just YOLO'ed the ECM implementation and HASN'T CHANGED IT SINCE.
Oh yes, you read that right, my friends. ECM has gone completely UNTOUCHED since its introduction to MWO.
Edited by ArmandTulsen, 30 June 2014 - 08:31 PM.
#23
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Posted 30 June 2014 - 08:40 PM
ArmandTulsen, on 30 June 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:
If something is such a gamechanger than one side with just ONE of the item and the other with NONE means that the side with ONE has a huge advantage, then something is frigging wrong with the item itself. That should tell you all you need to know.
But you know, PGI just YOLO'ed the ECM implementation and HASN'T CHANGED IT SINCE.
Oh yes, you read that right, my friends. ECM has gone completely UNTOUCHED since its introduction to MWO.
But you know, PGI just YOLO'ed the ECM implementation and HASN'T CHANGED IT SINCE.
Oh yes, you read that right, my friends. ECM has gone completely UNTOUCHED since its introduction to MWO.
That's actually inaccurate... there were nerfs to it... but not many.
For instance, ECM used to block you from showing your location to teammates... let alone letting you see where your teammates are. Once you are "enveloped" in the ECM jamming, you were for all intents and purposes "dead" (because usually lots of hell followed the ECM mech).
Also... the ECM hardpoint was created.
Paul was "just brilliant"... except not.
Old ECM Reference:
http://mwomercs.com/...f-guardian-ecm/
#24
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Posted 30 June 2014 - 08:48 PM
Deathlike, on 30 June 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:
That's actually inaccurate... there were nerfs to it... but not many.
For instance, ECM used to block you from showing your location to teammates... let alone letting you see where your teammates are. Once you are "enveloped" in the ECM jamming, you were for all intents and purposes "dead" (because usually lots of hell followed the ECM mech).
Also... the ECM hardpoint was created.
Paul was "just brilliant"... except not.
Old ECM Reference:
http://mwomercs.com/...f-guardian-ecm/
The change to allow ECM to see your teammates isn't a nerf, it's a buff! lol?
And the hardpoint restriction does nothing to the actual ECM functionality itself, hence it's not a nerf at all.
Yes, my comment was factually inaccurate (the changes didn't tone down ECM, though), but the message is still clear: ECM was made to be OP and PGI hasn't budged on the subject.
Edited by ArmandTulsen, 30 June 2014 - 08:48 PM.
#25
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Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:33 PM
Nope. Usually the team with the most c0j0nes, does.
Mass ECM on the other side, is usually only a big deal if you want to huddle together behind a hill and wonder why "LRMS NO WERK!!! GAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"?!?!?!?!?
Winning has more to do with superior coordination, and initiative. Always has, always will.
The team that spends the whole match reacting, or even worse, doing nothing, loses. Period.
Mass ECM on the other side, is usually only a big deal if you want to huddle together behind a hill and wonder why "LRMS NO WERK!!! GAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"?!?!?!?!?
Winning has more to do with superior coordination, and initiative. Always has, always will.
The team that spends the whole match reacting, or even worse, doing nothing, loses. Period.
Edited by Bishop Steiner, 30 June 2014 - 09:33 PM.
#26
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Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:39 PM
No, the team with the most ECM does not always win, though it is entertaining to see the perspectives of those who think PUGs are somehow fooled by it. Some are, sure, but there are veterans amongst PUGs who know better than to follow the ECM rabbits. The newer ones wouldn't know what to shoot at whether there is ECM or not.
The problem with ECM is that you have to stay in a bubble for it to work. This is a problem for LRM boats who can't aim manually and commanders who think the radar will do their job for them. But it is a blessing for commanders with good spotters and mechwarriors with AoE attacks like artillery.
One of the worst things that can happen to anyone in any kind of fight is to not know where there enemy is. ECM pilots know this and try to take advantage, believing that the enemy team will not react in time to call out their position. However,it takes far less time for veterans to say or type a grid coordinate than it does to escort a lance with ECM. Suddenly, the advantage becomes a disadvantage, because we know where the whole lance is, and best of all, that lance is at least short by a few tons because it has ECM, usually carried by a light or medium that is moving slowly.
That said, getting a PUG team to realize this takes some clever command and some fast typing if you're not on VOIP. This is where the real advantage of ECM lies. There are only so many places a multi-ton 'mech can be, much less a whole lance. It's like trying to hide a jumbo-jet in a parking lot. ECMs rely on the enemy not setting up an organized search pattern or sticking together. That's why they think they have an advantage over PUGs.
And so many PUGs oblige. They don't communicate, it's like they're either too afraid or too lazy to do something as simple as say hello to other human beings. And this is on the internet, where nobody gives a crap about who you are. Talk! Use your words, and when those fail, use your waypoints. PUG lances will follow, they haven't got anything better to do. Many of the newer ones are not familiar with the "R" key anyway, so radar doesn't mean much. If they won't talk, talk for them.
But of all things, don't blame the game developers for utilizing an aspect of warfare as old of the art of warfare. Deception has always been a part of warfare, it's not unbalanced or OP. It is the good officer who sees that he is being deceived and does something about it, it is the poor officer who surrenders to circumstance and blames his troops. If you see DDC Atlases, push an assault lance their way. They won't have the guns for a stand-up fight. Those are multi-tasking Atlases, who think they are immune to LRM fire. They will fall to concentrated short-range barrages, but your lance doesn't need to know that,they only need to know "Concentrate fire o my target." It took me less than two seconds to type that and I made an error, but everyone knows what it means.
Of course, you can short-cut this process by playing with an open mind and looking for new players who are good. Clans try to do this, but ultimately they only end up recruiting players who want to join a clan. So many more operate freelance, and if you play with them enough, there is no need to give them orders. They already know what you are going to do, and you know what they are going to do. No better way to beat an ECM company with a plan than to play as a unit that already knows how to compensate for all lack of battlefield intelligence. I know that Jules will rush and try to get behind the enemy, I know that Khan will support me in taking out the biggest target or the ECM and I know that "Chad" will be standing by with LRM support. I also know that I'm the primary target. Jump jets, do your thing, but there is no way an ECM lance is getting past us without serious hurt, and really, that's all you can do. Use your tactical instincts.
The problem with ECM is that you have to stay in a bubble for it to work. This is a problem for LRM boats who can't aim manually and commanders who think the radar will do their job for them. But it is a blessing for commanders with good spotters and mechwarriors with AoE attacks like artillery.
One of the worst things that can happen to anyone in any kind of fight is to not know where there enemy is. ECM pilots know this and try to take advantage, believing that the enemy team will not react in time to call out their position. However,it takes far less time for veterans to say or type a grid coordinate than it does to escort a lance with ECM. Suddenly, the advantage becomes a disadvantage, because we know where the whole lance is, and best of all, that lance is at least short by a few tons because it has ECM, usually carried by a light or medium that is moving slowly.
That said, getting a PUG team to realize this takes some clever command and some fast typing if you're not on VOIP. This is where the real advantage of ECM lies. There are only so many places a multi-ton 'mech can be, much less a whole lance. It's like trying to hide a jumbo-jet in a parking lot. ECMs rely on the enemy not setting up an organized search pattern or sticking together. That's why they think they have an advantage over PUGs.
And so many PUGs oblige. They don't communicate, it's like they're either too afraid or too lazy to do something as simple as say hello to other human beings. And this is on the internet, where nobody gives a crap about who you are. Talk! Use your words, and when those fail, use your waypoints. PUG lances will follow, they haven't got anything better to do. Many of the newer ones are not familiar with the "R" key anyway, so radar doesn't mean much. If they won't talk, talk for them.
But of all things, don't blame the game developers for utilizing an aspect of warfare as old of the art of warfare. Deception has always been a part of warfare, it's not unbalanced or OP. It is the good officer who sees that he is being deceived and does something about it, it is the poor officer who surrenders to circumstance and blames his troops. If you see DDC Atlases, push an assault lance their way. They won't have the guns for a stand-up fight. Those are multi-tasking Atlases, who think they are immune to LRM fire. They will fall to concentrated short-range barrages, but your lance doesn't need to know that,they only need to know "Concentrate fire o my target." It took me less than two seconds to type that and I made an error, but everyone knows what it means.
Of course, you can short-cut this process by playing with an open mind and looking for new players who are good. Clans try to do this, but ultimately they only end up recruiting players who want to join a clan. So many more operate freelance, and if you play with them enough, there is no need to give them orders. They already know what you are going to do, and you know what they are going to do. No better way to beat an ECM company with a plan than to play as a unit that already knows how to compensate for all lack of battlefield intelligence. I know that Jules will rush and try to get behind the enemy, I know that Khan will support me in taking out the biggest target or the ECM and I know that "Chad" will be standing by with LRM support. I also know that I'm the primary target. Jump jets, do your thing, but there is no way an ECM lance is getting past us without serious hurt, and really, that's all you can do. Use your tactical instincts.
#27
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Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:54 PM
Since ECM availability is not part of Match Making, yes, it wins games.
#28
Posted 01 July 2014 - 02:47 AM
ECM may impact match outcome, but its just one of very many factors. People like to blame their losses on other things, but really people just need to take some responsibility.
But nooooooo, its always someone/something else's fault they lost. Always.
But nooooooo, its always someone/something else's fault they lost. Always.
#29
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Posted 01 July 2014 - 02:54 AM
FupDup, on 30 June 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:
It's because of red triangles and target info, not Lurms (usually). No magical red doritos means that the pug overmind breaks down and loses its ability to focus-fire and shoot damaged body parts.
As usual, FupDup lays it down nicely.
Does the team with more ECM always win? Hell no.
Does ECM help towards victory? Heck yes. If you are playing a Spider or Raven without the ECM version, you are gimping your team.
Edited by El Bandito, 01 July 2014 - 02:57 AM.
#30
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Posted 01 July 2014 - 03:14 AM
No, in general the team with the most PP/FLD Timberwolves win.........at least recently anyway. Not every time of course, some TBR pilots just aren't that good, just as some IS meta pilots aren't that good, but on average..............yeah.
#31
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Posted 01 July 2014 - 03:24 AM
All other things being equal, ECM tips the scales for one of the teams in the majority of matches.
#32
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Posted 01 July 2014 - 03:32 AM
I did a drop (Skirmish on Frozen City) the other day in my ECM-equipped COM-2D, and I'm pretty sure my contribution to that match helped win it.
The other side were heavy on ECM (they had at least twice as much as we did), so I set mine to jam theirs and simply ran in and made them visible to my team, one after the other. And one after the other they got obliterated by massed direct and indirect fire.
It only took a press of the ECM mode toggle button to give my team the little red triangle they needed to know where the enemy was.
We won the game 7-12.
Me? I got 320 damage, 1 kills and 9 assists. 153k CB and 3.2k XP; not bad for a little Commando
Moral of the story: ECM has two modes. Don't forget the second mode.
The other side were heavy on ECM (they had at least twice as much as we did), so I set mine to jam theirs and simply ran in and made them visible to my team, one after the other. And one after the other they got obliterated by massed direct and indirect fire.
It only took a press of the ECM mode toggle button to give my team the little red triangle they needed to know where the enemy was.
We won the game 7-12.
Me? I got 320 damage, 1 kills and 9 assists. 153k CB and 3.2k XP; not bad for a little Commando
Moral of the story: ECM has two modes. Don't forget the second mode.
#33
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Posted 01 July 2014 - 04:13 AM
ArmandTulsen, on 30 June 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:
If something is such a gamechanger than one side with just ONE of the item and the other with NONE means that the side with ONE has a huge advantage, then something is frigging wrong with the item itself. That should tell you all you need to know.
But you know, PGI just YOLO'ed the ECM implementation and HASN'T CHANGED IT SINCE.
Oh yes, you read that right, my friends. ECM has gone completely UNTOUCHED since its introduction to MWO.
But you know, PGI just YOLO'ed the ECM implementation and HASN'T CHANGED IT SINCE.
Oh yes, you read that right, my friends. ECM has gone completely UNTOUCHED since its introduction to MWO.
Most of my games are like 0-12 or 12-0 or very close to it. Its' really bad matchmaking on top of ECM and meta sided pug drops
#34
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Posted 01 July 2014 - 04:23 AM
ECM doesn't stop bullets. Bullets stop ECM.
#35
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Posted 01 July 2014 - 04:31 AM
Deathlike, on 30 June 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:
Despite this being the case, ECM does need to be reworked... for various reasons.
Yes, because its a bandaid counter for OP LRMs, which in turn are a bandaid counter for pinpoint FLD meta. House of cards anyone?
Lynx7725, on 30 June 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:
... rendering teamwork in PUGs difficult.
Haven't seen any in a year or so ... ECM or not.
Lynx7725, on 30 June 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:
... but I'm fairly sure some of the chat gets blocked when you are alive but jammed...
No.
#36
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Posted 01 July 2014 - 04:35 AM
Bishop Steiner, on 30 June 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:
Nope. Usually the team with the most c0j0nes, does.
Mass ECM on the other side, is usually only a big deal if you want to huddle together behind a hill and wonder why "LRMS NO WERK!!! GAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"?!?!?!?!?
Winning has more to do with superior coordination, and initiative. Always has, always will.
The team that spends the whole match reacting, or even worse, doing nothing, loses. Period.
Mass ECM on the other side, is usually only a big deal if you want to huddle together behind a hill and wonder why "LRMS NO WERK!!! GAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"?!?!?!?!?
Winning has more to do with superior coordination, and initiative. Always has, always will.
The team that spends the whole match reacting, or even worse, doing nothing, loses. Period.
And even though it brings me pain to agree with Bishop, he speaks the truth.
#37
Posted 01 July 2014 - 07:09 AM
Clydewinder, on 30 June 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:
Seems to be the case more often than not. If one team has more ECM than the other and especially if they have LRM to back it up, it seems like it's a massive uphill fight to hold on unless your whole team is cheez snipers.
Maybe that is how the matchmaker forces a loss when it needs you to lose?
Maybe that is how the matchmaker forces a loss when it needs you to lose?
No, it's the team who can shoot the straightest and maneuver the best.
#38
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Posted 01 July 2014 - 07:17 AM
Clydewinder, on 30 June 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:
Seems to be the case more often than not. If one team has more ECM than the other and especially if they have LRM to back it up, it seems like it's a massive uphill fight to hold on unless your whole team is cheez snipers.
Maybe that is how the matchmaker forces a loss when it needs you to lose?
Maybe that is how the matchmaker forces a loss when it needs you to lose?
No not always but one thiing I can tell you is that the team with no ECM at all usually loses.
Regards
#39
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Posted 01 July 2014 - 08:28 AM
Clydewinder, on 30 June 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:
Seems to be the case more often than not. If one team has more ECM than the other and especially if they have LRM to back it up, it seems like it's a massive uphill fight to hold on unless your whole team is cheez snipers.
No, especially because I have made them priority #1.
Clydewinder, on 30 June 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:
Maybe that is how the matchmaker forces a loss when it needs you to lose?
This comment deserves this:
#40
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- The Hammer
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Posted 01 July 2014 - 10:11 AM
PhoenixFire55, on 01 July 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:
And even though it brings me pain to agree with Bishop, he speaks the truth.
Gah.
Next thing you know I'll be hoisting beers with Vassago in some ice rimed northern pub.
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