16 replies to this topic

[N a p e s]

This is more an observation of the lore than anything but it seems weird and even contradictory to me that Clans would develop weapons with extended range. Granted, some of the Clans only loosely followed the rules of Zellbrigen but if I'm not mistaken even those Clans preferred dueling to all out brawls.

So basically, why do you develop weapons with increased range when you believe the only honorable fight is the one where you can see the whites of your opponent's eyes?

[Hellcat420]

the clans don't really follow zell when their enemies do not, especially after the battle of tukayyid.

[TamCoan]

Increase in technology generally leads to such benefits. Use your longer range weapons to take out an arm, close and take em out in melee.

[Ultimax]

Napes339, on 01 July 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

So basically, why do you develop weapons with increased range when you believe the only honorable fight is the one where you can see the whites of your opponent's eyes?

They're fighting with giant robots, not dueling at 20 paces.

What is inherently dishonorable about fighting at range if you are both fighting at range?


I think you are taking your preconceived notions of what is "honorable" and applying it to this fictional society.

Quote

Depicted as a means to reduce collateral damage to their fragile and limited infrastructure, soon after their founding the Clans developed rules of ritualized combat and warfare to avoid damaging vital resources and harming civilians. These rules are a key feature of BattleTech lore. The most important aspect of Clan combat doctrine is that they prefer to fight one-on-one duels, and actually disdain attacking numerically inferior enemies as dishonorable.

Seems like being honorable, meant they had to honor the terms of the duels (and not attack inferior numbers).

Not that they had to be "lawful stupid".

[Escef]

Napes339, on 01 July 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

So basically, why do you develop weapons with increased range when you believe the only honorable fight is the one where you can see the whites of your opponent's eyes?

A better question: From where do you get this bizarre take on clan honor?

[Suko]

Napes339, on 01 July 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

This is more an observation of the lore than anything but it seems weird and even contradictory to me that Clans would develop weapons with extended range. Granted, some of the Clans only loosely followed the rules of Zellbrigen but if I'm not mistaken even those Clans preferred dueling to all out brawls.

So basically, why do you develop weapons with increased range when you believe the only honorable fight is the one where you can see the whites of your opponent's eyes?

I remember reading an interview a year or two back with the guy who was developing the Btech TT game at the time of the Clan releases. I might not get it 100% right, but he was saying how if he could do it all over again, he'd change a LOT about the OP Clan tech. He mentioned almost exactly what you did; up close, brutal close-in fighting tech. He gave examples of most weapons doing much greater damage, but at reduced ranges (compared to IS) and maybe even increased heat. So, you're not far off from what the view of the game's creator is now.

[RAM]

ShadowVFX, on 01 July 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

I remember reading an interview a year or two back with the guy who was developing the Btech TT game at the time of the Clan releases. I might not get it 100% right, but he was saying how if he could do it all over again, he'd change a LOT about the OP Clan tech. He mentioned almost exactly what you did; up close, brutal close-in fighting tech. He gave examples of most weapons doing much greater damage, but at reduced ranges (compared to IS) and maybe even increased heat. So, you're not far off from what the view of the game's creator is now.

You are barely 10% right as your memory is completely wrong. He was not the game's creator nor was he around when the Clans were being developed & invading. His ONE weapon example was the Heavy Laser.


RAM
ELH

[Suko]

RAM, on 01 July 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

You are barely 10% right as your memory is completely wrong. He was not the game's creator nor was he around when the Clans were being developed & invading. His ONE weapon example was the Heavy Laser.


RAM
ELH

I didn't say he was the game's creator. I said he was the one developing the game at the time. That is NOT the creator. There's been numerous "line developers" for Btech over the decades, so I don't know why you'd assume I meant the original creator.

Also, got any links? Right now it's just your word against mine, but you seem to think your word is more honest for some reason. Cool bro.

Edit: I found this link, which has no more "proof" than my own comments. Even then, it just reiterates what I said about close-up weapons with more heat and damage.

http://bg.battletech....html#msg829880

I spoke with the original creator of Battletech and the current (as of 2012) line developer for Btech at PAX in person. No, I didn't record it in any way because I'm not a reporter, but we spoke on this subject (and many others) related to Battletech. So, I might not have a URL to prove it, I know what I was told straight from the lead dude, so I'm going to keep believing it. Also, one of the head guys at Catalyst (which is in Lake Stevens and very close to where I live) owns a local shop at the Everett Mall (10 min drive from my house) and I've had conversations with him about Battletech repeatedly. Again, I'm not a creepy stalker who's recording these casual conversations for a blog, but I do get to pick their brains a bit and what they have to say is often very interesting.

Edited by ShadowVFX, 01 July 2014 - 09:43 AM.

[N a p e s]

I'm no lore buff, so my take on the whole thing is pretty casual but I did read the write-up on Sarna about Zellbrigen. And this is not about starting a flame war or being opposed to the in-game balance of how the TT rules play out in a FPS environment. I'm just wondering if I was the only one who thought this...

ShadowVFX, on 01 July 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

I remember reading an interview a year or two back with the guy who was developing the Btech TT game at the time of the Clan releases. I might not get it 100% right, but he was saying how if he could do it all over again, he'd change a LOT about the OP Clan tech. He mentioned almost exactly what you did; up close, brutal close-in fighting tech. He gave examples of most weapons doing much greater damage, but at reduced ranges (compared to IS) and maybe even increased heat. So, you're not far off from what the view of the game's creator is now.

That seems like it would make sense regardless of how accurate it is in light of RAM's follow-up post. Does that even matter anyways?

Edited by Napes339, 01 July 2014 - 09:25 AM.

[SeaRider]

It depends on the source writers, an issue with having multiple voices tell the story is, well you get multiple versions of said story. The Aiden Pryde Trilogy and the novel "Roar of Honor", i think, talks about how clanners prefer to fight at a distance as it takes more skill to destroy an enemy at range. there's lore fluff that supports both the in close and at range arguments. I don't think FASA, Wizkids, or Catalyst Games Lab ever gave a definitive answer, though I can always be way off. My two, take with grain of salt.

[Joseph Mallan]

Napes339, on 01 July 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

This is more an observation of the lore than anything but it seems weird and even contradictory to me that Clans would develop weapons with extended range. Granted, some of the Clans only loosely followed the rules of Zellbrigen but if I'm not mistaken even those Clans preferred dueling to all out brawls.

So basically, why do you develop weapons with increased range when you believe the only honorable fight is the one where you can see the whites of your opponent's eyes?

You are mistaking the rules of engagement. Zellbrigen is I call you out, I do not have to see you face to face You just need to be on my radar. Once I call you out, it is on. Now if I have 800m Range and kill you at 795m I have proven I am a superior gunner, I have conserved my resources (armor) which is a bonus, in a Spartan Society like the Clans.

As an Infantryman in the Marines we tried very hard to engage the enemy AT range. Cause the closer they got, the more of us died. SO I worked very hard at head capping at 500m. You can't get back up with a bullet in your brain pan.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 01 July 2014 - 09:40 AM.

[N a p e s]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 July 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

You are mistaking the rules of engagement. Zellbrigen is I call you out, I do not have to see you face to face You just need to be on my radar. Once I call you out, it is on. Now if I have 800m Range and kill you at 795m I have proven I am a superior gunner, I have conserved my resources (armor) which is a bonus, in a Spartan Society like the Clans.

As an Infantryman in the Marines we tried very hard to engage the enemy AT range. Cause the closer they got, the more of us died. SO I worked very hard at head capping at 500m. You can't get back up with a bullet in your brain pan.

Thanks for the clarification.

Rereading the article on Sarna, the one area where I can see the extended ranges actually help to satisfy the honor code is the mention of "intentionally moving out of maximum range". Having these long range weapons actually gives a pilot more flexibility about the range of engagement even though he must also not break line of sight which may be trickier when you consider that an ERLlas has a range of more than 800m.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

The Clans are big on honor. But honor does not mean giving your opponent equal footing. An example of an honorable victory to the Clans is defeating a numerically superior force with fewer, more advanced units.

[RAM]

ShadowVFX, on 01 July 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

I didn't say he was the game's creator. I said he was the one developing the game at the time. That is NOT the creator. There's been numerous "line developers" for Btech over the decades, so I don't know why you'd assume I meant the original creator.

I spoke with the original creator of Battletech and the current (as of 2012) line developer for Btech at PAX in person. No, I didn't record it in any way because I'm not a reporter, but we spoke on this subject (and many others) related to Battletech. So, I might not have a URL to prove it, I know what I was told straight from the lead dude, so I'm going to keep believing it. Also, one of the head guys at Catalyst (which is in Lake Stevens and very close to where I live) owns a local shop at the Everett Mall (10 min drive from my house) and I've had conversations with him about Battletech repeatedly. Again, I'm not a creepy stalker who's recording these casual conversations for a blog, but I do get to pick their brains a bit and what they have to say is often very interesting.

The developer at the time of the Clan release WAS the creator. Hardly numerous given you can count them on one hand.

Randall made the Heavy Laser quote
Herb was the Line Developer in 2012
Lorne's involvement with the rules is limited at best, and non-existent when the Clans were introduced


RAM
ELH

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Napes339, on 01 July 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

This is more an observation of the lore than anything but it seems weird and even contradictory to me that Clans would develop weapons with extended range. Granted, some of the Clans only loosely followed the rules of Zellbrigen but if I'm not mistaken even those Clans preferred dueling to all out brawls. So basically, why do you develop weapons with increased range when you believe the only honorable fight is the one where you can see the whites of your opponent's eyes?

Effencency. not to mention scientists get bored and go "hey, so those lasers, think we can make them shoot farther and do more damage?"

Seriously that's what it boils down to. As for the clans and Zell duels, just think, up until the fight with the inner sphere. Clanners only FOUGHT WITH ONE ANOTHER. Meaning that their tech was the same. They all had the same toys, they didn't think about how much weaker the IS were other than "hey, we can go take back the homeland and make sure everyone is happy under our version of the Star League."

[xXBagheeraXx]

Clans were all about jacking them up at range. Why their long range weapons are all superior.

[Bobzilla]

Because there's honor in skill and shooting at distance takes skill?

That and long range doesn't have to be used as sneaking up, and ridge humping or poptarting.