67 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

wanderer, on 01 July 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

The easiest solution would be restricting true FLD + pinpoint to the Gauss and leave it at that. Splash PPCs + burst AC's makes it rather tough to deliver efficient alphas short of monsters like a Dire Wolf.

Perhaps we should stop focusing on nerfing weapons and focus on developing damage spreading skills. If you take two average-above average players (not the master race referred to before, just somewhere between average and above average) and pit them 1v1 with a-hole meta pinpoint damage builds with jump jets and let them go at it, do you think either would walkaway (or die) with only damage to one component (pinpoint)?

If you answer no, then maybe there is more to this "pinpoint" damage everyone is so concerned about.

If you answer yes, then you are wrong. I can provide a video if needed, but I don't like to do things that could be construed as bragging. Just take my word for it please, I don't want to have to cut a video and post it here.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 July 2014 - 03:51 PM.

[anonymous161]

Why you even bother after taking a year off? I'd just focus on games with real content.

[Simbacca]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

Just because it is easy doesn't mean it isn't a terrible solution.

However, the solution does not nerf the weapons in any way - so they remain viable. The solution solves the issue of the meta.

[Gas Guzzler]

Simbacca, on 01 July 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

However, the solution does not nerf the weapons in any way - so they remain viable. The solution solves the issue of the meta.

A half second or less would achieve the same results though.

[DocBach]

Something that people forget is the fact that in battletech, even with BV to balance it, PPC/Gauss monsters were the top of the food chain -- the easiest way to get ridiculously high BV builds would be to have a gauss/PPC with jump jet -- They are meant to be terribly efficient death machines.

[Simbacca]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

A half second or less would achieve the same results though.

The goal is to de-sync the weapons - I could go for less than 2 seconds, but no less than 1 second for AC/Guass+PPC.

Edited by Simbacca, 01 July 2014 - 04:02 PM.

[Adran]

LordKnightFandragon, on 01 July 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

Yeah, its the same meta in comp play. Hell, that is starting to bleed into Puggie play to. Almost every other game I am met by a Dual PPC/GR Direwolf 2 shotting my Warhawk. And by 2 shot, I mean blowing off one of my arms, effectively reducing it to nothing....it blows off my arm, pretty much cores all my torso slots....

I gotta say the PPFLD really is making this game absolutely no fun, paired with the puggies and the 2-12 wipes...plus the horrid performance from this game.

WTF is PPFLD?

[Gas Guzzler]

Simbacca, on 01 July 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

The goal is to de-sync the weapons - I could go for less than 2 seconds, but no less than 1 second for AC/Guass+PPC.

The definition of de-sync is really any time delay greater than 0 seconds.

Two projectiles fired with a half of a second in between are completely de-synced and will not contact the same component unless you adjust for the second shot, which most will not be able to do.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 01 July 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

Man you guys and cooldown.

6 Tons of IS SRM 6s = 24 Damage for 8 heat
7 Tons of IS PPC = 10 Damage for 10 heat


The issue is in the delivery, not the cooldown.


For the clan the damage to weight ratio is even higher for SRMs.

6 Tons of cSRM 6s = 48 damage for 16 heat
6 Tons of cERPPC = 15 damage for 15 heat


But again, the problem with SRMs is in the delivery.


The best ideas I've seen are:

> Increase SRM flight speed
> Change to cone spread, so that the closer you are the tighter the spread

I think they need to have their heat scale penalties (ghost heat) loosened as well.


SRMs should be one of the premier close range spike damage tools, not DPS weapons - they still need tweaks so those damage numbers are real damage and not just inflated sandblasting - but the cooldown portion isn't actually the issue.

And those are good suggestions, but doesn't change the fact for the same tonnage, you get more effective damage.

Spread is a big issue, since spread initiates shortly after it leaves the tube, but it goes to maximum spread and stays parallel after that.

So, max spread at ~40M and the same spread at 260M. At 10 meters, you at least only hit two components on the Atlas, although sometimes 3.

So, 24 damage spread across multiple components even at 10M, very ammo hungry though for a very small amount less heat. Now, for 2 SRM6s you need at least 2 tons of ammo. 10 eDHS should handle a single PPC.

Which can reach out and still do 10 damage, to the same location, at 540M. With a much faster travel speed.

They also fire at the same rate. With twice the effective range, and 4 times the maximum range, it has a much favourable damage application. If you pack two in the same location, they also become a super PPC. Which will deal 20 damage for twice the heat. While with SRMs, you can never expect them to hit the same location. Even at 10M.


Of course, if you can get within 90M of said PPC mech, you will win. Getting there is the issue.

Adran, on 01 July 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

WTF is PPFLD?

Pin Point Frontloaded Damage.

Like isACs, PPCs and Gauss. They apply all their damage to a single location without any spreading mechanics.

Lasers are PP DoT while SRMs and LBx series are FLD spread.

[Sephlock]

DocBach, on 01 July 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

Something that people forget is the fact that in battletech, even with BV to balance it, PPC/Gauss monsters were the top of the food chain -- the easiest way to get ridiculously high BV builds would be to have a gauss/PPC with jump jet -- They are meant to be terribly efficient death machines.

Mmmm, Hellstars.

[N0MAD]

LordBraxton, on 01 July 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Im updating MWO for the first time in ages,
+ stuff

I also updated MWO last night, at the insistence of one of my sons.
I was going to make the next sentences more colorful, but let me just say that i couldnt tolerate that F...n UI2, after 15 minutes of very bad language i handed it over to Max.
After 15 minutes of Max at the helm of UI2 his sole comment while hitting the exit button was F that..

[badaa]

nothing will change until they deal with pinpoint.

[Angel of Annihilation]

You going to see it alot more PPC/Gauss with clan mechs because most of their weapon mechanics are so focused on Damage Over Time that I am having trouble killing enemy mechs with Lasers and autocannons. Basically I have been forced to build my Timberwolf around the ER PPC to remain competitive. (Note: hardly ever use PPCs on my IS mechs but they are required on my Timberwolf).

For example, it has been my experience with IS Large lasers that most people won't react to taking laser fire till about 3/4 of the way through a 1 second burst. This means that you can typical hold and concentrate a pulse for around 0.7 to 0.8 second before the enemy will start moving and twisting to avoid damage. This is great when you only have a 1 second burst because this means your typically going to be able to put 7-8 damage into say the CT with only 1-2 damage spread. On a Clan ER LL however, you have a 1.5 second pulse. Following the same example you only manage about half the pulse going into the CT while the rest gets spread so basically only 4-5 points of concentrated damage as compared to the IS weapons. This makes it hard to get a finishing hit.

Also lets take ACs. IS AC/20 is pretty easy to line up a CT for a solid 20 damage even while moving, jumping or dodging. The Clan UAC/20 however is burst so you might line up and lead perfectly but only the first shot hits CT for a whopping points of 5 damage, then you have 5 points hit a torso and maybe another 5 hit the arm or miss entirely. Of course you get the double tap with the UAC/20 so as you correct back on to the target you hit the arm again, then torso and finally if your lucky get another 5 points into the CT where you were aiming in the first place. Again about 1/2 as much damage as the IS version gets concentrated.

Then there is Clan LRMs with their streaming. First about 4 times as many missiles get taken out with AMS due to the streaming. Then of course as soon as the missile start hitting, the enemy begins to try to evade by twisting and turning which means even with Artemis, damage gets spread all over the mech. Also if the enemy happens to break lock half way through the stream, half miss. This is of course unlike IS LRMs which just all slam into the target all at once so again your have roughly have of the concentrated damage of IS weapons.

So what is left for a Clanner that wants more than to just do damage, more like actually being able to kill the enemy and put them down permanently? Why boat the only FLD weapons the Clans have, ER PPCs and Gauss.

As to the fix, I don't really know aside. Only real solution is to remove FLD and level the playing field I guess or make DoT/DPS weapons so good that there is really no difference in the end outcome of using them vs FLD weapons. Either solution is easier said than done.

[hercules1981]

EyeOne, on 01 July 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Meta is what folks use, but you certainly don't have to to win and do well. I have 56 mechs and zero of them have PPC/AC combos. They are enjoyable and successful.

Also, why do people uninstall? Are you that hardup for harddrive space or do you like enjoy making a statement?

People uninstall just to make it more difficult to waste there time playing a game they want to kinda stop playing, u got a half hour to kill u r saying to yourself eeehhh I'll play 2 matches then I'll go do whatever it was I had once the half hour is up. If u uninstall the game u ain't playing the game in that small window of time u will end up doing something else. Oh did I mention I'm right about at that point with the game too. I'll c 2morrow what happens with the patch then mayb ill hit that uninstall button once I figured out purity much everything will still be the same.

Edited by hercules1981, 01 July 2014 - 04:45 PM.

[anonymous161]

N0MAD, on 01 July 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

I also updated MWO last night, at the insistence of one of my sons.
I was going to make the next sentences more colorful, but let me just say that i couldnt tolerate that F...n UI2, after 15 minutes of very bad language i handed it over to Max.
After 15 minutes of Max at the helm of UI2 his sole comment while hitting the exit button was F that..

lol

[Pjwned]

There have been changes to discourage jump sniping meta, such as lowered AC5 projectile speed and all autocannons now only have 2x range instead of 3x range, which makes a fairly big difference. There have also been other things like buffs to pulse lasers, LRMs aren't a joke now and NARC got a nice buff to go with it, SRMs do more damage and won't disappear now, lower class jumpjets don't let you turn really fast in the air anymore, and importantly, further changes to jumpjets like proper heat and thrust values are coming soon and fall damage is going to make a lot more sense because lights won't take as much while heavies & assaults will take much more.

It's not perfect but the meta isn't in exactly the same state, and there are further (good) changes coming.

[Alexandrix]

DocBach, on 01 July 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

Something that people forget is the fact that in battletech, even with BV to balance it, PPC/Gauss monsters were the top of the food chain -- the easiest way to get ridiculously high BV builds would be to have a gauss/PPC with jump jet -- They are meant to be terribly efficient death machines.

That might mean something if we had some kind of BV balancing system in MWO.Since we don't,a bunny hopping gauss/ppc Timbertart is the same value as a MG/small laser twolf as far as the matchmaker is concerned.

If the enemy team got 1 clan medium and 1 IS heavy for every gauss/PPC monstrosity your team brought to the field,it might make a difference.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 01 July 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

And those are good suggestions, but doesn't change the fact for the same tonnage, you get more effective damage.

Yes that was the entire point of my post.

The 10 from the PPC is effective because it does not spread.

Although that being said, the clan version at 48 damage even if you get 1/4th on target is right there - but it needs to be better than that.

Mcgral18, on 01 July 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

Spread is a big issue, since spread initiates shortly after it leaves the tube, but it goes to maximum spread and stays parallel after that.

Right, I think that's what I was going on about.

That is part of delivery.

Mcgral18, on 01 July 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

They also fire at the same rate. With twice the effective range, and 4 times the maximum range, it has a much favourable damage application. If you pack two in the same location, they also become a super PPC. Which will deal 20 damage for twice the heat. While with SRMs, you can never expect them to hit the same location. Even at 10M.

Yes, I get that part I just disagree that nerfing PPCs into obsolecence through heavy handed double recharge times is the answer.

It will just outright remove the weapon from the field because it will suck.


Pinpoint needs to be dealt with, multiple weapon systems should not all land on a single tiny point.

Recharge needs to be left alone.

[AUSSIETROOPER4]

Correct. Lrm buff has reverted the game back to peak n poke. Eeverybody is afraid to move due to the Borg sight lrm attacks.

[Tripzter]

EyeOne, on 01 July 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Also, why do people uninstall? Are you that hardup for harddrive space or do you like enjoy making a statement?

It's to avoid the temptation. Deleting the shortcut is as simple as getting it back. Truth is I recently shredded WOT for that exact reason. My buddy calls me, "lets play WOT".. For the rest of the night, I'm in the game with an annoyed attitude because of the gold ammo spam and rng.