141 replies to this topic

[Agent of Change]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Clan ER Smalls are now blatantly inferior to Clan ER Mediums, unless you somehow have only 0.5 tons left over and don't want any more ammo. Using more than 1 CERSL is now pointless.

Maths:

2x CERSL:

• 1 ton
  
• 200m range
  
• 8 damage
  
• 4 heat

1x CERML:

• 1 ton
  
• 450m range
  
• 7 damage
  
• 5 heat

The Nerfinator has claimed another life, and now the CERSL has suffered the same fate as the Inner Sphere Small Laser.



Seriously, Paul, the weapon was reasonably balanced before. A pair of them gave a noticeably higher punch than 1 CERML, but you had the run the risk of getting into very short range to reap that higher damage (fights don't magically start at 180m, folks). But now, only a dumbass would ever use a CERSL after the patch.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but your evidence seems to support the fact that CERSL are actually on par with where tey should be. Your hyperbolic rage seems misplaced as we break it down.

2x CERSL 1x CERML
1 ton 1 ton = Even
200m 450m = ML has a longer range (as would be expected)
8 Damage 7 damage = SL does more damage
4 heat 5 heat = ML has more heat

I put forth that the CERML is NOT in fact better in every way than 2 CERSL what is actually the case is that CERML trade a small loss of damage and and increase of heat for more range. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Now would you care to explain why my math and your math using the same numbers come to different conclusions?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

StaggerCheck, on 02 July 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Large Pulse Laser needed attention so badly. I am very surprised they didn't get a tweak to make them viable.

Yeah, I mean if you have a steady hand, they are decent. But that beam duration is definitely long.

[El Bandito]

IS Medium laser has even more advantage over IS Small Laser when compared to Clan Medium/Small laser relationship, but people bring buttloads of IS SLasers to the match anyway. It is partly due to faster speed of IS Lights, but Clan ERSlaser has twice the range to offset that. Plus CERSlas has only 1/4 more burn time but 1/3 more damage than IS SLas.

Bottom line is, we shouldn't give up on the Clan Small Laser just yet. Wait for some faster Clan Lights and Mediums to join the fray (there will be some) and CERSlas might shine then.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 July 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[Koniks]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

DPS is largely meaningless in this game, especially when you consider that the beam duration just spreads it out anyways. The ability to damage enemies from afar is far more useful than a tiny DPs nudge.

Your argument is inconsistent. They slightly decreased the max damage but also increased optimal and max ranges. So compared to the pre-patch CERSL stats, you lose 2 points of damage between 0-180m. But it means you're still doing about the same damage at 200m. And doing significantly more between 360-400m because anything is greater than zero.

By your logic they made CERSLs a better weapon because the range is far more useful than a tiny DPS nudge.

I wasn't comparing the CSPLs to the CERMLs. CERMLs are all about range. CERSLs are all about DPS. Which is why I compared them to the CSPLs. This change was about giving pilots a reason to take CSPLs instead of CERSLs.

Edited by Mizeur, 02 July 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[Ursh]

This mostly affected one mech, the Nova.

Stupid change to so drastically reduce the damage.

Also, see anyone using clan large pulse lasers lately? Yeah, me neither. The CERPPC or CERLL is always the better choice due to the insanely long burn time of the clan large pulse.

[SpiralFace]

I would be hesitant to say that the ERSL is dead now just because its no longer the CLEAR winner compared to the ML's when you boat them on Nova's.

Still doing more damage, for less heat, on a much shorter cool down still makes me feel that they have a place. ERML's are probably still going to be better for poke and fade mechs, but ER smalls still seem like they win out in sustained knife fights due to their combo of shorter beam duration, more damage, less heat, and less cooldown.

They where a bit on the ridiculous side previously, and while I do feel these changes on paper seem to be heavy handed, it doesn't seem to have them COMPLETELY fall off the bus when it comes to viability, as 12 ER smalls will still out DPS by a good margin 6 ERML's of similar weight. And have better beam duration, and cool down abilities to still make them deadly at close range.

[FupDup]

Agent of Change, on 02 July 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

...

I put forth that the CERML is NOT in fact better in every way than 2 CERSL what is actually the case is that CERML trade a small loss of damage and and increase of heat for more range. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Now would you care to explain why my math and your math using the same numbers come to different conclusions?

The heat and damage advantages of the ERSL are tiny. -1 heat and +1 damage. That is pretty much impossible to notice during gameplay. But, my ability to poke you at 900 meters with the CERML is very easy to notice.

The CERSL is now very much like the Inner Sphere SL, when compared to the CERML (ISML, respectively). The boosts you get are miniscule compared to what you gain.


Getting into close range is a huge risk in this game. You can and generally do get shot at as you get there. People who take that risk should have much higher damage output than people sitting in the back all day. Not just "slightly" more damage. A lot more damage. Otherwise, people would just snipe all day. Brawling weapons need to hurt people hard.

[Jonny Taco]

StaggerCheck, on 02 July 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Large Pulse Laser needed attention so badly. I am very surprised they didn't get a tweak to make them viable.

Sure would be nice if the large clan lasers shared the same burn time as their medium counterparts just like within the IS lineup... Sure would go a long way towards fixing the cLPL and to a lesser extent the cERL, both of which are known under performers.

[Sprouticus]

Looking at those numbers

cERSL is useless
cSPL is useless
cMPL is pretty much useless.

LB2x and lb5x May be viable for meta at <400m due to reduced spread, needs testing.

[FupDup]

Mizeur, on 02 July 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

Your argument is inconsistent. They slightly decreased the max damage but also increased optimal and max ranges. So you lose 2 points of damage between 0-180m. But it means you're still doing about the same damage at 200m. And doing significantly more between 360-400m because anything is greater than zero.

By your logic they made CERSLs a better weapon because the range is far more useful than a tiny DPS nudge.

You're looking at the CERSL in a vacuum. I am comparing it to the CERML. The CERML always had a big range advantage over 2xCERSL, and boosting CERSL to 200m did not change this. The CERSL will never beat the CERML at its own job of long-range poking, which is why the CERSL should be shorter range but hit harder. It gives the weapon a more clearly defined role.

Edited by FupDup, 02 July 2014 - 10:15 AM.

[Deathlike]

I'm going to slightly disagree. While the change makes no sense comparing 2 Clan ER Small to the Clan ER Med (I mean, only one man is able to achieve this), the bigger issue is actually with the Clan ER Small vs the IS Medium Laser... despite them not being directly equippable.

1x CERSL:
.5 ton
200m range
4 damage
2 heat

1x ISML:
1 ton
270m range
5 damage
4 heat

I don't see that is really being "nerfed to death" (only relative to the Clan ERMed)... rather that the regular Med Laser needs a heat reduction. Since the IS Med Laser is pretty balanced otherwise, it stands to reason that it isn't "as bad" as one would make it out to be.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 July 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[Dymlos2003]

So much hyperbole in this thread it hurts.

[arghmace]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

The CERML was and still is also superior to it.

It was? I thought that 5 dmg for just 2 heat was phenomenal. Even now, 4 for 2 is still good. But anyways I agree with you that CERML is way too good. It cannot really be used as a measuring stick or we have to buff every weapon in the game by a whopping amount. It's the CERML that needs balancing.

[Sprouticus]

Mizeur, on 02 July 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

I think you're overstating the case, FupDup. 2 CERSLs still have a significant DPS advantage once you're in range. And they're now more fairly balanced against IS MLs.

The damage reduction for the CERSLs combined with the damage increase for CSPLs now makes the CSPLs a more viable option.

If the range was 250m or 270m for the cERSL, you might have a point.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 02 July 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

I'm going to slightly disagree. While the change makes no sense comparing 2 Clan ER Small to the Clan ER Med (I mean, only one man is able to achieve this), the bigger issue is actually with the Clan ER Small vs the IS Medium Laser... despite them not being directly equippable.

How doesn't it make sense to compare them? I am comparing 1 ton of Clan lasers to 1 ton of a different Clan laser. If 1 ton spent on item A is better than 1 ton spent on item B, I'm not gonna use item B.

How many people do you see using the IS SL in place of the IS ML? Probably not very many, and those that do are almost always lights. And even considering the people who do, the SL never sees use on "top" light builds.


Also, the factions don't need identical weapon stats, because of customization differences. That is the "hidden balancing" behind many Clan weapons.

Edited by FupDup, 02 July 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[Sprouticus]

Perhaps we should be looking at the ERML as the issue then?

[El Bandito]

Sprouticus, on 02 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

If the range was 250m or 270m for the cERSL, you might have a point.

Then IS Medium Laser will look bad.

[EyeOne]

Dymlos2003, on 02 July 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

So much hyperbole in this thread it hurts.

You'd think by reading this thread that CERSL damage was reduced to 0, range to 0 and heat to 1,000,000.

Sprouticus, on 02 July 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Perhaps we should be looking at the ERML as the issue then?

I'm really shocked that the CERML isn't getting a range reduction. At least today.

Edited by EyeOne, 02 July 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[Phlinger]

The only mech that uses ERSmalls all by themselves is the Nova, but it boats them. They now have increased range and less damage. 6 x 4 = 24 pinpoint damage, on each arm is still impressive.

Every other mech loadout I have made with ERSmalls also carries a nice helping of either an LBX/20 or 2-4 SRM/6's. ERSmall lasers are an easy add-on weapon to fill empty slots when weight is slim. I'd take a 4dmg+2 heat for .5tons over nothing any day.

[El Bandito]

With the reduction of ballistic range from 3x to 2x, any range buff to lasers will have bigger impact than before. Alas, FLD is still king.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 July 2014 - 10:22 AM.