141 replies to this topic

[Koniks]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

You're looking at the CERSL in a vacuum. I am comparing it to the CERML. The CERML always had a big range advantage over 2xCERSL, and boosting CERSL to 200m did not change this. The CERSL will never beat the CERML at its own job of long-range poking, which is why the CERSL should be shorter range but hit harder. It gives the weapon a more clearly defined role.

My point is that anything you're saying now was already true of CERSLs compared to CERMLs. This change is effectively neutral. Except by your standard, where you claimed range is more important than damage. If that's the case, then they just improved ERSLs.

[AlmightyAeng]

OP, 2/7 is February 7th.

Today is July 2nd, 7/2.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

How doesn't it make sense to compare them? I am comparing 1 ton of Clan lasers to 1 ton of a different Clan laser. If 1 ton spent on item A is better than 1 ton spent on item B, I'm not gonna use item B.

I was actually agreeing with comparing 2 Clan ERSmall to 1 Clan ERMed... my point was actually to look at the IS Med as another comparable point.

Quote

How many people do you see using the IS SL in place of the IS ML? Probably not very many, and those that do are almost always lights. And even considering the people who do, the SL never sees use on "top" light builds.

I still see people experimenting on the Clan Mechs. I simply just laugh @ the stock Jenner-F Champion build though.

[FupDup]

Mizeur, on 02 July 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

My point is that anything you're saying now was already true of CERSLs compared to CERMLs. This change is effectively neutral. Except by your standard, where you claimed range is more important than damage. If that's the case, then they just improved ERSLs.

You're still looking at it wrong. The ERSL will never beat the ERML in a range battle, which means that boosting it to 200m didn't help it in the end...because it still gets outclassed in a range battle. However, the niche where the ERSL excelled over the ERML -- close combat -- has been reduced.

The ERSL will never beat the ERML at its own job, which is why I keep trying to emphasize that their roles should be different. The range boost only reduces differences, and this means the one with the best range ends up winning.

[Koniks]

Sprouticus, on 02 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

If the range was 250m or 270m for the cERSL, you might have a point.

The CERSLs are half the weight of an ISML. Have more than 2/3rds of the range. A shorter cooldown. Less heat. And better DPS.

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

You're still looking at it wrong. The ERSL will never beat the ERML in a range battle, which means that boosting it to 200m didn't help it in the end...because it still gets outclassed in a range battle. However, the niche where the ERSL excelled over the ERML -- close combat -- has been reduced.

The ERSL will never beat the ERML at its own job, which is why I keep trying to emphasize that their roles should be different. The range boost only reduces differences, and this means the one with the best range ends up winning.

CERSLs aren't supposed to be better than ERMLs at range. They have a niche. Short-range DPS at less heat. They still fill that niche. Now they do it at a slightly better range. And now there's potentially a reason to use CSPLs at even shorter ranges, where there was none before.

Edited by Mizeur, 02 July 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[Dymlos2003]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

You're still looking at it wrong. The ERSL will never beat the ERML in a range battle, which means that boosting it to 200m didn't help it in the end...because it still gets outclassed in a range battle. However, the niche where the ERSL excelled over the ERML -- close combat -- has been reduced.

The ERSL will never beat the ERML at its own job, which is why I keep trying to emphasize that their roles should be different. The range boost only reduces differences, and this means the one with the best range ends up winning.

Reduced but still better. I mean ERSL is worse than ERML who woulda thought!?

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 02 July 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

I was actually agreeing with comparing 2 Clan ERSmall to 1 Clan ERMed... my point was actually to look at the IS Med as another comparable point.

If we could equip them on the same mech, that comparison point would matter more. But we can't, so we should probably be balancing them individually.

Deathlike, on 02 July 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

I still see people experimenting on the Clan Mechs. I simply just laugh @ the stock Jenner-F Champion build though.

The experimentation will naturally go down over time as the trickle down effect kicks in...I'm already seeing way too many Timbertarts.

[C E Dwyer]

Shaking my head and laughing at the solo drop changes.

If I drop with my daughter who at this stage isn't very good, but is still getting kills and over 200 damage on champion Orions.

I will gimp the entire team as us two would count as the single group.

Just way to go

slow hand clap

[Jonny Taco]

Mizeur, on 02 July 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

The CERSLs are half the weight of an ISML. Have more than 2/3rds of the range. A shorter cooldown. Less heat. And better DPS.

but but but, lets not compare them in a vacuum while comparing them in a vacuum!

The amount of hyperbole and hypocrisy within this thread is astounding.

P.S. I'm poking fun at others, not you Mizeur

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

The experimentation will naturally go down over time as the trickle down effect kicks in...I'm already seeing way too many Timbertarts.

Build a meta-compliant Victor equivalent of the Madcat. You'd be surprised how similar they are (and yet not for obvious reasons).

[FupDup]

Mizeur, on 02 July 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

CERSLs aren't supposed to be better than ERMLs at range. They have a niche. Short-range DPS at less heat. They still fill that niche. Now they do it at a slightly better range.

I know they're not supposed to be better at range, which is why I believe they should not have had their range increased.

Here is a more clear breakdown of before and after:

Before: 2 ERSL was quite a bit better in close quarters than 1 ERML, but way worse at range.

After: 2 ERSL are slightly better in close quarters than 1 ERML, but still a lot worse at range.

[El Bandito]

Ghost Badger, on 02 July 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

OP, 2/7 is February 7th.

Today is July 2nd, 7/2.

That's in USA. In most other countries, day is posted before the month.

In my country it is written as 3/7/2014. That's right, I am in the future.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 July 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[Dymlos2003]

Cathy, on 02 July 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Shaking my head and laughing at the solo drop changes.

If I drop with my daughter who at this stage isn't very good, but is still getting kills and over 200 damage on champion Orions.

I will gimp the entire team as us two would count as the single group.

Just way to go

slow hand clap

Only sometimes. You're in both queues atm but hey why don't you ask for the ability to only be in solo queue toggle when you have 2 man group? Sounds like a good idea.

[Koniks]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

I know they're not supposed to be better at range, which is why I believe they should not have had their range increased.

Here is a more clear breakdown of before and after:

Before: 2 ERSL was quite a bit better in close quarters than 1 ERML, but way worse at range.

After: 2 ERSL are slightly better in close quarters than 1 ERML, but still a lot worse at range.

You're still ignoring that these changes were needed to give the CSPL a role. And you're moving the goal posts to make up for the inconsistency in your original argument.

I don't have anything more to add here.

[C E Dwyer]

Ghost Badger, on 02 July 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

OP, 2/7 is February 7th.

Today is July 2nd, 7/2.

Op is correct only Americans us the dumb way, just saying

[FupDup]

Mizeur, on 02 July 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

You're still ignoring that these changes were needed to give the CSPL a role. And you're moving the goal posts to make up for the inconsistency in your original argument.

I don't have anything more to add here.

It already had a role. The changes reduced that role and tried to make them more similar to the ERML.

[Jman5]

You guys are being dramatic. The Clan ER Small Laser was waaay out of wack and something needed to change.

Let's get out of the clan only mindset and think about this:

Prior to this change compared to the IS Medium Laser it had: half the heat, half the weight, equal damage, higher DPS, equal beam duration, and some range disadvantage. Now at least it has about equal DPS and even closer range. IS players with identical number of medium lasers simply were getting outclassed in raw damage/dps.


Back on the clan side of things:
The big things that are going to set the C. ER SL apart from the C. ER ML is the shorter beam duration, lower heat, and higher DPS/ton at the cost of range (which was buffed btw).

[Dracol]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

The heat and damage advantages of the ERSL are tiny. -1 heat and +1 damage. That is pretty much impossible to notice during gameplay. But, my ability to poke you at 900 meters with the CERML is very easy to notice.

That one point of heat is a 20% reduction per shot
That one point of damage is 12.5% less damage between the ML and the SL

That is very noticeable on the battlefield if one is in need of a close defense weapon

edited: had percent's flipped

Edited by Dracol, 02 July 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Cathy, on 02 July 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Shaking my head and laughing at the solo drop changes.

If I drop with my daughter who at this stage isn't very good, but is still getting kills and over 200 damage on champion Orions.

I will gimp the entire team as us two would count as the single group.

Just way to go

slow hand clap

Can I get your daughter on my team? There are games I'd KILL for some of the people in my pugs to do 200 damage or more.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 02 July 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[Koniks]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

It already had a role. The changes reduced that role and tried to make them more similar to the ERML.

I'm going to explain this without acronyms since it seems to be the source of our failure to communicate.

The changes to the Clan Extended Range Small Laser were necessary to give the Clan Small Pulse Laser a role. Pre-patch there was no reason to use the Clan Small Pulse Laser. Now there potentially is one.

Edited by Mizeur, 02 July 2014 - 10:36 AM.