402 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

NaZotH, on 12 July 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

Well we did that. I have played well over 14K matches. So a duel with me might not be the best learning experinece for a new guy.

Actually it's the best learning experience, he's your friend, he knows you are a vet and he EXPECTS you'll kick him all over the place. You can take the time to explain how things work and let him shoot at you to his heart's content so he can learn how arms vs torso mounted weapons work, burn in time, locks for missiles, leading with SRMs and ballistics, and so on. And all without having someone come along and blow him away without warning. You could even jump on one of the many community run TS servers and ask for some help in showing him the game and teaching him how it works, plenty of people are more than willing to do that.

I keep seeing people say things like 'fair' and 'even', what exactly are you guys playing? It's sure as hells not MWO, and you've obviously never played any of the previous MW titles or even BTech PnP. Tonnage limits, Combat Force Values, etc etc that have been used for years to try and make BTech 'fair' and 'even' have NEVER worked, and that's in PnP where player skill has little impact on the outcome due to the random nature of dice rolls. In the MW titles, tonnage limits were often used to make things 'fair' or 'even', and in them it wasn't much of a factor either, because personal skill IS paramount and has a serious impact on the outcome. Dire Wolf vs a Raven, by PnP rules there is little chance of that Raven doing anything but being scrap. In the MW video games however, that fight can go any number of ways due to the skill and abilities of the pilots. There is nothing 'fair' or 'even' about someone who can put gauss rounds into the cockpit of your Mech at 1.5k every single shot, nor is there anything 'fair' or 'even' about someone who can't hit the backside of a Dire Wolf with an LBX20 at 5m.

Fair and even are things you try to teach KIDS so they think there's actually some sort of universal law that makes Life less of a total CharlieFrank than it really is, much as we teach them about fairies, gnomes, Santa Claus and other myths, little white lies to soften the blows coming as they get older and find out what Life is really like. You want fair and even in a video game, then you need to play something like Barbie or Hello Kitty Online, because the moment player skill has ANY effect on the outcome of the game, fair and even go straight out the window.

[NaZotH]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 July 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Actually it's the best learning experience, he's your friend, he knows you are a vet and he EXPECTS you'll kick him all over the place. You can take the time to explain how things work and let him shoot at you to his heart's content so he can learn how arms vs torso mounted weapons work, burn in time, locks for missiles, leading with SRMs and ballistics, and so on. And all without having someone come along and blow him away without warning. You could even jump on one of the many community run TS servers and ask for some help in showing him the game and teaching him how it works, plenty of people are more than willing to do that.

I keep seeing people say things like 'fair' and 'even', what exactly are you guys playing? It's sure as hells not MWO, and you've obviously never played any of the previous MW titles or even BTech PnP. Tonnage limits, Combat Force Values, etc etc that have been used for years to try and make BTech 'fair' and 'even' have NEVER worked, and that's in PnP where player skill has little impact on the outcome due to the random nature of dice rolls. In the MW titles, tonnage limits were often used to make things 'fair' or 'even', and in them it wasn't much of a factor either, because personal skill IS paramount and has a serious impact on the outcome. Dire Wolf vs a Raven, by PnP rules there is little chance of that Raven doing anything but being scrap. In the MW video games however, that fight can go any number of ways due to the skill and abilities of the pilots. There is nothing 'fair' or 'even' about someone who can put gauss rounds into the cockpit of your Mech at 1.5k every single shot, nor is there anything 'fair' or 'even' about someone who can't hit the backside of a Dire Wolf with an LBX20 at 5m.

Fair and even are things you try to teach KIDS so they think there's actually some sort of universal law that makes Life less of a total CharlieFrank than it really is, much as we teach them about fairies, gnomes, Santa Claus and other myths, little white lies to soften the blows coming as they get older and find out what Life is really like. You want fair and even in a video game, then you need to play something like Barbie or Hello Kitty Online, because the moment player skill has ANY effect on the outcome of the game, fair and even go straight out the window.

This i like. My wording was bad on the fair and even part.

But have to say i am old.I have played most of the Mechwarrior games and i have played my share of TT.

[Thiak]

and here some more proof that the new MM is working as intended

[VixNix]

Thiak, on 12 July 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

and here some more proof that the new MM is working as intended

What??
???that proves nothing, one team capped...

[JigglyMoobs]

I put in some games last night with a group of friends. We had 6 or 7 people the each of the games. Most of us were solo pilots who knew how to play pretty well.

We had one close-ish game where we made a tactical error vs another fairly organized group and lost after half of our team passively stood by to watch us die. Other than that we pretty much stomped, even though 3 out of our 6 or 7 were in lights (granted they were good light pilots). No body put up strong resistance. No body was even loosely organized. Most of our opponents fought pretty much like people fight in the solo queue. Most of our teammates did the same. There was no organized resistance. We pretty much cut through the other team like hot knife through butter.

It was more than clear that in the great majority of our games we dropped with and against people way below our elo.

This is strange because I can see from my friends list that other people whom we perhaps should be dropping against or with were playing, but we were not being matched against them.

There's another thread in this forum asking if group queue MM is taking account of elo at all. I'm beginning to think that it isn't . Maybe that's the problem.

[DAEDALOS513]

Zolaz, on 09 July 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

What are you going to do when CW happens and you have to play 12 mans with your Pug group?

not sure what that means, sorry

Kristov Kerensky, on 10 July 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Why do you have to give them facts? Seriously?

Ok, your posts have now lost any credibility they might possibly have had.

Everyone of us who's stated we're NOT seeing the horrible drop experiences you have had are giving some facts to support our statements. My Win/Loss has increased not decreased and my KDR is even climbing up a bit. What do YOUR stats show since the new MM was introduced? Has your W/L dropped dramatically? Has your KDR dropped dramatically? Come on, you can take 30 seconds to see these stats and let Niko know how they've changed, then someone at PGI can do a little digging, check your drop logs and SEE if there's actually an issue with you getting constantly tossed against 12 mans while your side is composed of nothing but 2-4 man units, there could actually BE a bug causing that.

Your refusal to give any data to work with however makes me, and I'll wager the folks at PGI, feel that you are simply screaming about the sky falling and not actually reporting anything of any real value. Your FEELINGS don't show up on any of the data streams they use to see how the game is actually working, you know, the REAL state of the actual game and what the players are actually experiencing as opposed to whining from someone who's been clear that he misses being able to stomp on PUGs with his small group and hates being unable to stomp on those same PUGs anymore because his small group now has to always face other groups.

And Puskin, text chat works, it has for decades in online games from RotT and Doom to WoW and BF4 and MWO. When I drop solo, first thing I do is type to the team 'hit R to the LRMs have targets and so you can see the weak points on the enemy'. Amazingly enough, that simple little bit of advice as everyone's Mechs are powering up does wonders. People are targeting the enemy left and right and the team CHATS back and forth and works together. When I don't toss that little bit of advice out there, few people target and the only chatting is people whining about how the team sucks after they died trying to Rambo a lance of Dires with their Timby.

I am sorry that some of you don't understand the team thing when dealing with people you didn't specially seek out to drop with, but for some of us, that's how we've been playing team oriented games since the late 90s, back when we had 16v16 or 32v32 and no voice comms on public servers for Tribes and Battlefield 1942. WE did it just fine back then in games MUCH faster paced than MWO, so why can't you folks do it today?

You really gotta shorten your responses.. i'm not going to read thru a novel, sorry.

How's that for credibility.

[IanSane]

I have to agree with this... They need to get clan wars or other types of matches up as soon as possible. 2 VERY new to the game friends and I (not so new) group together so I can TRY and show them the ropes and get roflstomped (2-12 kind of roflstomps) match after match after match by premades (what do you or PGI think that does to player retention?), some as many as 12. Its pretty obvious when the entire enemy team is the same faction btw so please dont assume we cant tell. There needs to be a bracket for 4mans and less and one for more than. I hear working as intended and if so then their intentions are wrong. A 12 man premade will have a MASSIVE advantage over 3 groups or 6 groups of 4 or 2 man premades simply through cohesion and communication. While everyone in the 12man is on the same page the other side is STILL essentially a PUG because there is no communication between the different groups that make it up.
There is NOTHING wrong with clans wanting to do 12 mans, on the contrary, im all FOR it...just keep em seperate from everyone else. In other games, world of tanks for example, there are random battles that can be made up of no more than 3 people per group for a total of 15 per team, and there are company battles specifically FOR premades of up to 15 with the added option that ANYONE can create a team even if it is people they dont know or invite clanmates/friends specifically.
What I would like to see them do is this:

No more than 4 to a group in random battles.
If more than 4 to a group then they select another game type (team battle) and do their 12 on 12s or 8v8s, If they cant fill their team then oh well they drop short or the solo player gets an OPTION to be selected as a random filler.

Bottom line is this. Don't automatically get a swelled head when your 12 man roflstomps a pug thinking that you are SO much better than the individual players on the other team. While that might be true you might also find it true that there are some amazing players on the other team that WANT to do the right thing (NOT go to Mt Doom) but aren't dumb enough to leave the herd and get caught alone but because their team has no comms and die quickly even the best players going to get slaughtered (BTW I am most definitely NOT counting myself in that category) and getting stomped match after match after match is NOT the way to keep players playing and more importantly to PGI spending money.

Oh and Kristov, Ive been playing MMO and FPS online games since there WERE online games and can tell you that teamwork based on typed chat is RARE and by no means the norm. Even if that WERENT the case which do you think is the better advantage....pressing a button and TALKING or stopping your mech, or going on autopilot and TYPING instructions theres no certainty the players on your team can even READ.

Edited by IanSane, 12 July 2014 - 10:06 PM.

[SVK Puskin]

NaZotH, on 12 July 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

Well we did that. I have played well over 14K matches. So a duel with me might not be the best learning experinece for a new guy.

Oh man so take it easy...You suppose to be training him not showing him how good you are!!!

Edited by ENS Puskin, 13 July 2014 - 08:14 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Jiggly, your Friends List isn't an indicator of ELO. I encounter few of the people on my Friends list when I drop solo as well, most of them are on the list because they are old friends from 20 years of MW games online or they are people I've run with dropping in groups of 2-4 or when I did 12 mans on the ComStar NA TS server. Hell, had a guy who had literally just installed the game prior to the drop in a match yesterday doing solos along with a top tier player who's team just won the last tourney, ELO averaging can do some odd match ups. It seems to be pretty loose right now as well, something they've mentioned would be the case for a bit while they do fine tuning.

Daedalos, since you like to talk but not listen, tldr version - you are whinging because you can't roflstomp pugs anymore with your group of friends, now you get to play with the big boys and you don't like it. Toughen up Buttercup, you ain't the big kid in high school anymore, welcome to the real game.

[Idealsuspect]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 July 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Daedalos, since you like to talk but not listen, tldr version - you are whinging because you can't roflstomp pugs anymore with your group of friends, now you get to play with the big boys and you don't like it. Toughen up Buttercup, you ain't the big kid in high school anymore, welcome to the real game.

Hehe pathetic

You don't listen it seem ..
Cauze he said he roflstomp pugs, i mean little groups pugs, with a large group and he think itsn't fair, like every big kid in mwo since MM patch we do it..

Some of us are honest with that, others aren't ( people who disagree with this topic you for example ).

Edited by Idealsuspect, 13 July 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Idealsuspect, on 13 July 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

Hehe pathetic

You don't listen it seem ..
Cauze he said he roflstomp pugs, but little groups pugs and he think itsn't fair, like every big kid in mwo we do it..
Some of us are honest, others aren't ( people who disagree with this topic you for example ).

I actually enjoy the group drops now far more than I did when we dropped against solo players, now the victories are earned, especially when our mixed 2s and 4s are facing a dedicated 12 man and we roll them 12-0.

I understand that you guys don't experience that elation, you can't handle dealing with actual teams that work together, I get it, others get it, PGI gets it. You want to roflstomp solo players with your 4 man group like you've been doing for a while now, yeah, we know.

Again, toughen up Buttercup, this ain't the sandlot anymore, welcome to where the big boys play. Get used to it, this is what CW will be.

[JigglyMoobs]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 July 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Jiggly, your Friends List isn't an indicator of ELO. I encounter few of the people on my Friends list when I drop solo as well, most of them are on the list because they are old friends from 20 years of MW games online or they are people I've run with dropping in groups of 2-4 or when I did 12 mans on the ComStar NA TS server. Hell, had a guy who had literally just installed the game prior to the drop in a match yesterday doing solos along with a top tier player who's team just won the last tourney, ELO averaging can do some odd match ups. It seems to be pretty loose right now as well, something they've mentioned would be the case for a bit while they do fine tuning.

Most of the people I saw on the friends list the other night were pretty high elo. I thought I'd see their groups at least a few times during the night, but nope, never.

What I'm wondering is this:

Statistically, are some group numbers too hard for MM to piece together into 12 man groups? For example, if you were in a 7 man group, MM would have to find a 5 man or a 2 man and a 3 man who happens to be dropping at that time and happens to be the right elo to match up against the other 12 man it's putting together. That might be pretty hard if there are not a huge number of different groups in the queue, especially if most people are dropping in larger groups for the night.

If some particular number combinations are hard to put together, MM might always have to the elo bounds for those groups, unless they want to wait for a looooooonnnnnnggggggg time on search. That then means that certain smaller groups will always be roped into higher elo games to fill out numbers. This results in much and and .

Yet another reason I'm advocating allowing solo pilots to volunteer to be on the group queue.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 13 July 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[Idealsuspect]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 July 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

blabla

I think you don't understand what we are talking about ...

For my personnal case i play only 10% of my games in groups, large or not, i prefer from far playing pugs and i don't need some boyfriends for defend my ass " big boys, big kids " or " not big boys, big kids "( lol )...
And before new MM i used to play 95% of my games in solo mode...

I prefer from far new solo queue and big group queue... medium group queue is just not fair in every case but of course you can face a weak 12' they are legions ...

Edited by Idealsuspect, 13 July 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

JigglyMoobs, on 13 July 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Most of the people I saw on the friends list the other night were pretty high elo. I thought I'd see their groups at least a few times during the night, but nope, never.

What I'm wondering is this:

Statistically, are some group numbers too hard for MM to piece together 12 man groups from if there are no solo pilots? For example, if you were in a 7 man group, MM would have to find a 5 man or a 2 man and a 3 man who happens to be dropping at that time and happens to be the right elo to match up against the other 12 man it's putting together. That might be pretty hard, especially if most people are dropping in larger groups for the night.

If some particular number combinations are hard to put together, MM might have to always relax the elo bounds for those groups, unless they want to wait for a looooooonnnnnnggggggg time on search.

Yet another reason I'm advocating allowing solo pilots to volunteer to be on the group queue.

Damn good question, especially when you toss in the fact that ELO is the 2nd factor the MM is using as chassis sizes are primary so that both sides have the same chassis sizes. Quick indicator you aren't facing an actual 12 man, you have less than 3 of any chassis size or more than 3 of any. Had a group drop where the entire enemy team had CW faction tags and someone on my side typed something about getting screwed by yet another 12 man. I looked and noticed we had 4 Assaults and 2 Mediums, so that wasn't a 12 man, just a coincidence that the other team were all CW faction players because 12 mans literally can not launch with more than or less than 3 of any chassis size.

Add in how many people are playing groups total of all sizes, and I'm sure ELO is being probably mostly ignored for a lot of the drops. Had a group where we had 3 people grouped on our side with 1 guy being a veteran since the Closed and his 2 teammates being brand new to the game, that has to bugger the ELO all to hell.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Idealsuspect, on 13 July 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

I think you don't understand what we are talking about ...

For my personnal case i play only 10% of my games in groups, large or not, i prefer from far playing pugs and i don't need some boyfriends for defend my ass " big boys, big kids " or " not big boys, big kids "( lol )...
And before new MM i used to play 95% of my games in solo mode...

I prefer from far new solo queue and big group queue... medium group queue is just not fair in every case but of course you can face a weak 12' they are legions ...

I know exactly what Daed is talking about, he's been pretty clear on it, he doesn't like his smaller group of 4 having to deal with playing against groups, he wants to be able to drop against solo players as he's been doing for a while now. He quite literally doesn't like having to deal with a team that works as a team as his opponents, it's not 'fair'. Something you also agree with, it's not 'fair' to have to face people who play as a team when you are dropping with a group of a few friends. Again, get used to it, that's exactly how CW will work and that's rather the point of the game, dropping with a group of people who work as a team to defeat the enemy team. Not the single enemy player, not 2 or 3 or 4 of the enemy players, the enemy TEAM.

I've dropped with you in solo que more than a few times idealsuspect, I've seen you in the group ques maybe 2 times since the MM changes. I drop solo, 2-10 and 12 depending on who's on and who needs another player that's on my list. I really prefer the 12 man the most, we work as a team even though we aren't all in the same unit, hells half of the people I drop with regularly will be my targets once CW comes around as they are all Clan factions. We have differing ideas on tactics and builds and combat styles, but we forget all that while we're dropping and do our best to work as a team and we generally have a really good time, even when we totally bugger it up and get rolled 12-0 by a dedicated 12 man or a random group of pugs like ourselves. Every loss is a lesson to be learned from regardless of being solo or grouped.

[GunnyKintaro 01]

Ironwithin, on 02 July 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Do you mean there were solo-players fighting against 12man-groups?

If so that's surely a bug, as the patch-notes state that should never happen.

If on the other hand you mean there were smaller groups(2-4man) fighting against 12mans, that's intentional as long as the whole team is made up of smaller groups.

that how its works and i love it !!!

[JigglyMoobs]

kyrdragon, on 13 July 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

How are 6 groups of 2 supposed to stand up to a huge single group? It's sucked all the fun out of my late night game sessions.

Just supplement one of their lances and do what they do. Also, I suspect that 2 mans are getting pulled into larger groups of higher elo players because it's so hard to put together 12 mans for those larger groups.

In other words, the "gears" of the MM are rusty and the two mans right now are the grease that make things go. You can't really blame PGI for this because it might be a mathematical problem. I suspect you'd have an easier time if MM had high level solo pilots to distribute.

[DAEDALOS513]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 July 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Daedalos, since you like to talk but not listen, tldr version - you are whinging because you can't roflstomp pugs anymore with your group of friends, now you get to play with the big boys and you don't like it. Toughen up Buttercup, you ain't the big kid in high school anymore, welcome to the real game.

''..whining, bla bla,'' ''..toughen up..yada yadda,'' ''..can't stomp no more, diddle diddle..''

Originality is SO rare in these forums. I ALWAYS let the person know when her/his comment was valuable and original. About your comments I have to say ... nothing.

kyrdragon, on 13 July 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Happening continually to my friend and I. If it's not a 12 man its 6 groups of 2 versus a group of 10, with one 'lucky' 2 man filling the empty slot. These games are not fun, not even in the slightest. Weather or not you are the lucky 2 person group on the team that utterly stomps all over the other.

How are 6 groups of 2 supposed to stand up to a huge single group? It's sucked all the fun out of my late night game sessions.

After all the near constant losses since the MM update, I can't even drop solo, I get put in games where more than half of the people are in trial mechs, and many of them can't even fight back effectively. I just feel like a bully.

Your experience in this game since the patch is why I started this thread.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 13 July 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Kristov Kerensky, on 13 July 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

I know exactly what Daed is talking about, he's been pretty clear on it, he doesn't like his smaller group of 4 having to deal with playing against groups, he wants to be able to drop against solo players as he's been doing for a while now. He quite literally doesn't like having to deal with a team that works as a team as his opponents, it's not 'fair'. Something you also agree with, it's not 'fair' to have to face people who play as a team when you are dropping with a group of a few friends. Again, get used to it, that's exactly how CW will work and that's rather the point of the game, dropping with a group of people who work as a team to defeat the enemy team. Not the single enemy player, not 2 or 3 or 4 of the enemy players, the enemy TEAM.

You're so clueless presuming to know what I'm trying to say without obviously reading the previous posts.

You, just like a few other 12man ego-stomp-hards can't answer my question straight without resorting to smarta$$ remarks. I'll try again:

What.. would.. be... wrong.. with... small groups... fighting... only... other... small groups?

And... what.. would... be... wrong... with... big groups.. fighting... only... other... big groups?

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 13 July 2014 - 02:22 PM.

[LordSkyKnight]

XPH Aku, on 02 July 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

So you are saying the only way to not gimp 12 man groups is by making 2+ man groups no fun to play? Shouldn't there be more than one answer to this question? What about making a lobby that 12 man groups can find each other? Maybe they could just remove 12 man groups in every thing other than private lobbies? No single or small group should EVER go against a large group. As for the sync drop thing PGI did a really good job stopping that from happening, so go eat a PPC.

So what should the max group size be? if you remove 12 man, you go to 10 being the max group. 10 organized players will still have a disgustingly disproportionate effect on the course of the game. Bump it down to 8? Ok, 2 organized lances. Oh wait, 2 organized lances can still crush 3 lances that don't work together. Damn, better drop it further. 5-7 doesnt make much sense really, not in a game organized around 4 man fireteams. So we should put the limit at 4. Yeah, that works, 1 organized lance can't take on 3 unorganized ones by themselves. Wait, isn't that the limit we had before that the community was complaining about because they wanted to be able to play with more friends?

Do you see how silly all of your complaints are? Don't rage at PGI for trying to make everyone happy ffs. The only ideas I've seen so far are just ridiculous as well. Allow solo's to play only against solo's? What solo in their right mind would ever drop in a queue with groups if given the option? So then 2-4 is left out to dry because there will be 0 chance of dropping in a game with solo players. Well then allow 2-4 to drop in a 2-4 only queue? then the larger groups may as well not exist because they'll never find matches with no 2-4 to fill in around the groups that have 8+, so MM breaks. Get a clue people. Think about how these things might work before you complain about them. The ONLY way to have groups larger than 4 is to invite the possibility that those larger groups will be matched against multiple smaller groups from time to time.