37 replies to this topic

[Dakshinamurthy]

Can someone who is well versed in both the victor and the timberwolf post a side by side comparison of each mechs 'ideal' 'pro' 'meta' loadout? I see people all over pointing out that the timberwolf isn't overpowered because it's no better than the victor. I find that hard to believe but since i'm not an expert i'm asking someone who is to come in and make the comparison.

I mean I saw a timberwolf with 2 ppcs, 2 lrm 15s, 2 small lasers, 2 machine guns, 1 medium laser, running 90kph, with great hitboxes. I don't understand how a victor could even come close to competing with that.

[DYSEQTA]

Dakshinamurthy, on 03 July 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

...of each mechs 'ideal' 'pro' 'meta' loadout?.

I think maybe you meant 'simplistic', 'lame', and 'easy-mode' respectively.

[Vassago Rain]

It's called sword and board.



You put your meta compliant twin PPCs and big ballistic on one side, and use the other as a shield. Unlike the victor, the madcat doesn't explode if you take a side.

[Gyrok]

Vassago Rain, on 03 July 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

It's called sword and board.



You put your meta compliant twin PPCs and big ballistic on one side, and use the other as a shield. Unlike the victor, the madcat doesn't explode if you take a side.

Neither does the Victor...you have these things, they even come with them...you know...STD engines...

[Vassago Rain]

Gyrok, on 03 July 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

Neither does the Victor...you have these things, they even come with them...you know...STD engines...

Is this a trick? The victor can't even fit a 300 standard if you want guns and ammo on it.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

This is more for jump sniping than an overall comparison, so keep that in mind:

Timberwolf Pros:

Can lose Side Torso and survive
ER PPC's do not have min range
Longer range on weapons

Timberwolf Cons:

Runs hotter
Worse profile with the center torso sticking out
Gauss charge

Victor Pros:

Runs cooler due to regular PPCs
Outside of 90m, better brawler due to no charge mechanic
Humanoid profile protects torsos better

Victor Cons:

Inside 90m PPCs don't work
Side torso = kill
Shorter range on weapons

Very basic, both are amazing for the Meta, you are splitting hairs.

[Lostdragon]

Dakshinamurthy, on 03 July 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

I mean I saw a timberwolf with 2 ppcs, 2 lrm 15s, 2 small lasers, 2 machine guns, 1 medium laser, running 90kph, with great hitboxes. I don't understand how a victor could even come close to competing with that.

That is not a pinpoint damage build, which is the meta. The Victor with 2 PPCs + 2 AC5 or some other bigger ballistic can do 30+ damage to a single location while jump sniping and it has all its weapons in one side, allowing the other to be used a shield like mentioned above.

The TBR build that competes with the VTR in the meta is 2 CERPPC + C Gauss. This build does 35 pinpoint damage plus an additional 10 damage to adjacent locations (from the CERPPCs).

Both of these mechs are fast and fairly agile (the VTR had its agility nerfed not too long ago because it was pretty ridiculous with a big engine) and both can use JJ. I don't know which one is better, I'll leave that to someone who plays at a higher level, but that is the basics of why these mechs are compared to one another.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Even if I like Timberwolf a lot I have to say that Victor is waaaaaay better for metagame...

[Cavendish]

You would probl. want to compair the CTF-3D with the Timberwolf since the Clans do not yet have an assult with pop-tart ability so we have nothing to match the Victor with currently.

[El Bandito]

When the Timberwolf was first announced, I never thought "Timbertarting" will become a thing. Grats PGI. You done goofed, again.

[Ultimax]

Cavendish, on 03 July 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

You would probl. want to compair the CTF-3D with the Timberwolf since the Clans do not yet have an assult with pop-tart ability so we have nothing to match the Victor with currently.

Let's just hope PGI comes up with an actual solution so that poptarting an entire match isn't the defacto best tactic before we get a clan assault that can poptart.


Like the Executioner.

[Vassago Rain]

Cavendish, on 03 July 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

You would probl. want to compair the CTF-3D with the Timberwolf since the Clans do not yet have an assult with pop-tart ability so we have nothing to match the Victor with currently.

The way it works is that you can only bring 3 of any given class, so the comparison is really good here. Good teams bring 3 madcats, 3 dragonslayers, 3 shadowhawks, 3 embers.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 03 July 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

This is more for jump sniping than an overall comparison, so keep that in mind:

Timberwolf Pros:

Can lose Side Torso and survive
ER PPC's do not have min range
Longer range on weapons

Timberwolf Cons:

Runs hotter
Worse profile with the center torso sticking out
Gauss charge

Victor Pros:

Runs cooler due to regular PPCs
Outside of 90m, better brawler due to no charge mechanic
Humanoid profile protects torsos better

Victor Cons:

Inside 90m PPCs don't work
Side torso = kill
Shorter range on weapons

Very basic, both are amazing for the Meta, you are splitting hairs.

Fairly good example however, the Victor can mount a ER PPC to negate the Timberwolf advantage there. However, a standard PPC is significantly cooler and usually a better option aside from a few situational circumstances.

Also to the OP if your comparing, you have to compare all builds and variants. The Victor S with a bit honking IS AC/20 is pretty hard to beat as a brawler. The Clan AC/20 and UAC/20 can't compete with it due their burst fire mechanics.

Also,most of the Clan weapons have significant disadvantages in the scope of the game. For example, with the Victor mounting a PPC and Autocannon/Guass with the exception of the AC/20, you have full articulation on the arms giving you a greater range of firing arcs. The Timberwolf however loses the lower arm actuators which limits it firing arcs fairly substantially. This makes it alot easier for the Victor to twist, cover and spread damage as well.

In any case, I own both Timberwolves and Victors and I would say the advantage typically goes to the Victors but they are close overall. Honestly the biggest difference it going to be pilot skill or to put it more basically, advantage goes to whichever mech the pilot feels more comfortable with.

On thing on the Timberwolf, it really is the swiss army knife of mechs. I can be built to suite virtually any play style which means alot of people who feel stifled by the limitations the Victor's hard points impose might very well find the greater freedom the Timberwolf offers makes it a superior mech.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Cavendish, on 03 July 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

You would probl. want to compair the CTF-3D with the Timberwolf since the Clans do not yet have an assult with pop-tart ability so we have nothing to match the Victor with currently.

Honestly funny you mention the CTF-3D as that is the comparison I usually draw when I am playing my Timberwolf. Victor is a whole different animal but the CTF-3D and Cataphracts in general, all feel very similar to the Timberwolf to me. Alot of the T-wolf builds mimic the Cataphracts as well, well all except the T-wolf missile boats which feel alot like Catapults honestly.

[BarHaid]

Vassago Rain, on 03 July 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

The way it works is that you can only bring 3 of any given class, so the comparison is really good here. Good teams bring 3 madcats, 3 dragonslayers, 3 shadowhawks, 3 embers.

oh dear, that does sound boring.

[Varent]

Dakshinamurthy, on 03 July 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

Can someone who is well versed in both the victor and the timberwolf post a side by side comparison of each mechs 'ideal' 'pro' 'meta' loadout? I see people all over pointing out that the timberwolf isn't overpowered because it's no better than the victor. I find that hard to believe but since i'm not an expert i'm asking someone who is to come in and make the comparison.

I mean I saw a timberwolf with 2 ppcs, 2 lrm 15s, 2 small lasers, 2 machine guns, 1 medium laser, running 90kph, with great hitboxes. I don't understand how a victor could even come close to competing with that.

1) The victor has a humanoid body shape, humanoid body shapes naturall roll damage better.

2) The arm placement of the victor allows easier use of one of the arms as a shield arm.

3) Better weapons for jump sniping, lower heat, FLD, More Ammo.

4) Better weapon placement allows all weapons to be readily moved to one side of the mech so you can lose an arm and a whole torso section and still be 100% combat effective, The Timber wolf cant do this effectively.

5) The ERPP the clans have and AC the clans have are actually DISADVANTAGED. They are way too hot to use for effective competitive jump sniping and they spread damage. For Jump Sniping (the dominant Meta) the Inner Sphere weapons are much better.

End of Story.

Edited by Varent, 03 July 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Dragon Slayer

Mad Cat

The Mad Cat hasn't seen competitive play yet. All major leagues at the moment ban out clans until they're released for cbills. However, many competitive players, including some of the best assault/heavy pilots, think that the Timberwolf is pretty broke. Heat efficiency is not much of a problem with the speed it has. It can kite quite well and engage when it wants. Speed is of incredible importance in a 12man environment, and in pugs. It's part of the reason why Dragon Slayers are brought over 733Cs nowadays.

Mad Cat vs. Dragon Slayer isn't really the right comparison. With the advent of 3/3/3/3 and tournament class based drop decks, the Timberwolf is ridiculously powerful. It is better than a 3D. This can't be argued. It moves faster, is tankier, and runs better loadouts.

In comp you will still see Dragon Slayers. You need the DPS for coordinated pushes and a Mad Cat can't do 2xAC5/2xPPC like the DS can. However, if both are running gauss loadouts, top players all pretty much agree that the Mad Cat outclasses the DS.

People keep on exaggerating how big the CT is. This is stupid and misleading. No, if you're just face tanking someone it doesn't have the same survivability as a Dragon Slayer. Standing still, the DS will spread damage better. However, torso twisting is very effective in one and you can spread your damage at your whim with it. People also get very defensive about clans, even if its just one clan mech, being OP or not. In the end it's important for game balance to have these kinds of discussions. To that end, let's not toss out 'L2P' arguments unless a person has proven that they really need to L2P.

Edited by Adiuvo, 03 July 2014 - 08:04 AM.

[Gyrok]

Vassago Rain, on 03 July 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

Is this a trick? The victor can't even fit a 300 standard if you want guns and ammo on it.

Sure it can, if you run a loadout suited to the Victor...if you run some crazy Atlas build like 2xAC5 + 2xPPC then no...but you can fit an AC10 and 2xPPCs with a standard engine and guns...it will run hot...sure...but...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f638d5459224e9e

[Vassago Rain]

Gyrok, on 03 July 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

Sure it can, if you run a loadout suited to the Victor...if you run some crazy Atlas build like 2xAC5 + 2xPPC then no...but you can fit an AC10 and 2xPPCs with a standard engine and guns...it will run hot...sure...but...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f638d5459224e9e

I can make awful builds, too. Here is a really awful build I made. It proves that my atlas DDC can run XL engines, somehow.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ca9f887e7a278b8

The extra unused tonnage is for going faster. I mixed range bands so I can be a fluffy frankenmech, too. Oh wait, this has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, and just proves how dense I am. My mistake.

So as I was saying, real victors run XLs, and AC10 is the worst gun in the game.

[Gyrok]

Say what you want, if you want survivability, you have to sacrifice something...you cannot have your cake and eat it too...