37 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Gyrok, on 03 July 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Say what you want, if you want survivability, you have to sacrifice something...you cannot have your cake and eat it too...

Going slow in a victor is the best way to ensure you don't survive.

[Almond Brown]

Gyrok, on 03 July 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Say what you want, if you want survivability, you have to sacrifice something...you cannot have your cake and eat it too...

Take a 300STD and add 5 DHS's (2 engine) and 1/2 more Leg armor you have the same Mech but have a 44% Heat ratio. Why ever take a 325 and not place Engines sinks? As noted, 74kph is already "not fast" by any measure.

Can't talk to the AC10 comment... I seem to prefer the AC5 myself.

Edited by Almond Brown, 03 July 2014 - 09:33 AM.

[Ultimax]

Adiuvo, on 03 July 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

Dragon Slayer

Mad Cat

The Mad Cat hasn't seen competitive play yet. All major leagues at the moment ban out clans until they're released for cbills. However, many competitive players, including some of the best assault/heavy pilots, think that the Timberwolf is pretty broke. Heat efficiency is not much of a problem with the speed it has. It can kite quite well and engage when it wants. Speed is of incredible importance in a 12man environment, and in pugs. It's part of the reason why Dragon Slayers are brought over 733Cs nowadays.

Mad Cat vs. Dragon Slayer isn't really the right comparison. With the advent of 3/3/3/3 and tournament class based drop decks, the Timberwolf is ridiculously powerful. It is better than a 3D. This can't be argued. It moves faster, is tankier, and runs better loadouts.

In comp you will still see Dragon Slayers. You need the DPS for coordinated pushes and a Mad Cat can't do 2xAC5/2xPPC like the DS can. However, if both are running gauss loadouts, top players all pretty much agree that the Mad Cat outclasses the DS.

People keep on exaggerating how big the CT is. This is stupid and misleading. No, if you're just face tanking someone it doesn't have the same survivability as a Dragon Slayer. Standing still, the DS will spread damage better. However, torso twisting is very effective in one and you can spread your damage at your whim with it. People also get very defensive about clans, even if its just one clan mech, being OP or not. In the end it's important for game balance to have these kinds of discussions. To that end, let's not toss out 'L2P' arguments unless a person has proven that they really need to L2P.

Your statement seems to say that the Timber Wolf & the Victor - 2 mechs that are only 5 tons apart - are roughly equivalent to each other with pros and cons for each.

[Adiuvo]

Ultimatum X, on 03 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Your statement seems to say that the Timber Wolf & the Victor - 2 mechs that are only 5 tons apart - are roughly equivalent to each other with pros and cons for each.

With gauss builds the Mad Cat is flat out better. Whether gauss can be adopted solely for a competition setting hasn't really been tested, at least specifically with Mad Cats. Which do play differently than gauss Victors.

[Cavendish]

Vassago Rain, on 03 July 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

The way it works is that you can only bring 3 of any given class, so the comparison is really good here. Good teams bring 3 madcats, 3 dragonslayers, 3 shadowhawks, 3 embers.

Thats sorta my point, in the heavy segment the choises are Timber Wolf of CFT-3D since you can definatly bring 3 of either and 3 DS. Hence I thought it might be better to compare within the weightclass?

[1453 R]

Viktor Drake, on 03 July 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Honestly funny you mention the CTF-3D as that is the comparison I usually draw when I am playing my Timberwolf. Victor is a whole different animal but the CTF-3D and Cataphracts in general, all feel very similar to the Timberwolf to me. Alot of the T-wolf builds mimic the Cataphracts as well, well all except the T-wolf missile boats which feel alot like Catapults honestly.

So…what you’re saying is that Timber Wolves feel something like a cross between a Marauder (2x PPC + AC/5, i.e. meta-compliant Cataphract) and a Catapult?

Hmmmmmm…….

[Ultimax]

Adiuvo, on 03 July 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

With gauss builds the Mad Cat is flat out better. Whether gauss can be adopted solely for a competition setting hasn't really been tested, at least specifically with Mad Cats. Which do play differently than gauss Victors.

I don't think I see an issue with one being better with Gauss and one being better with ACs (higher DPS) seeing as they are basically the same weight taking into consideration clan advantages. (Which unfortunately skirts the issue with your drop decks due to the arbitrary weight class monikers - unless of course competitions do IS v Clan)


Ultimately the ball still rests with PGI, whether they can find the mettle to address the harnessing of mechanics that make it so this one singular build outline dominates the entire game.

No amount of nerfing individual chassis, Jump Jets, etc., has actually changed the metagame - and in fact the changes overall have consistently done more harm than good to non-offending "lower tier" builds, for example the current fall damage changes to lights or removing mechs capable of competing (like the HGN).


They need a full solution at this point to address the mechanics that make this possible, not half measures, not band-aid fixes and not misguided single chassis nerfs.

They need to do this before we get some ridiculous mech like the Executioner that can take advantage of all of these mechanics while being 95 tons with a Clan 380xl, 4x JJs, 71 kph with 45 tons of free podspace (how does a 2x cGauss +2x cERPPC jumping direwolf sound to everyone?).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 03 July 2014 - 10:15 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

1453 R, on 03 July 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

So…what you’re saying is that Timber Wolves feel something like a cross between a Marauder (2x PPC + AC/5, i.e. meta-compliant Cataphract) and a Catapult?

Hmmmmmm…….

Well let me try to explain. I, without thinking, build one of my Timberwolf with a 2 ER LL, 2 ER ML, UAC/10 build and without even intending it, came up with almost exactly the same stats and configuration as my Cataphract 3D. I think the 3D had like 30 less armor and was maybe 5-10kph slower. That was when I realized the Timberwolf was very similar to a Cataphract.

It also moves very much like a Timberwolf and its low slung arms place the arm mounted weapons in the same place as a Timberwolf. Also you can pretty much mimic any Cataphract build out there on a Timberwolf.

You can also mimic any Catapult build as well, well minus the arms anyway.

[1453 R]

Viktor Drake, on 03 July 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Well let me try to explain. I, without thinking, build one of my Timberwolf with a 2 ER LL, 2 ER ML, UAC/10 build and without even intending it, came up with almost exactly the same stats and configuration as my Cataphract 3D. I think the 3D had like 30 less armor and was maybe 5-10kph slower. That was when I realized the Timberwolf was very similar to a Cataphract.

It also moves very much like a Timberwolf and its low slung arms place the arm mounted weapons in the same place as a Timberwolf. Also you can pretty much mimic any Cataphract build out there on a Timberwolf.

You can also mimic any Catapult build as well, well minus the arms anyway.

Way to miss the joke, Vik

[KAT Ayanami]

Vassago Rain, on 03 July 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

Is this a trick? The victor can't even fit a 300 standard if you want guns and ammo on it.

Nope. Its not a trick, he is just trying to reason why "clans arent OP"

[KAT Ayanami]

BTW. Victor is good for META. Timberwolf is good for playing "easy mode". Where every other mech is worse.

[Sun Cobra]

Gyrok, on 03 July 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Say what you want, if you want survivability, you have to sacrifice something...you cannot have your cake and eat it too...

I think you just need to accept the fact that any optimal victor build requires an XL engine. Part of the reason victors with high engine ratings are so effective is the fact that they are incredibly fast for assaults, which enables them to rotate effectively and maintain a good position. Not to mention the increased torso twist speed which allows you to get off an alpha while barely exposing your weapon side. A victor with a 300 engine does not boast these same attributes. Then, of course, you have the fact that you can pack in more ammo and double heat sinks within optimal weapons load out if you run an XL. I'm done here.

Edited by Sun Cobra, 04 July 2014 - 01:08 AM.

[Dakshinamurthy]

So an optimal build for a victor requires an XL engine? That seems like an almost insurmountable weakness when compared to a timby.

I mean currently fighting a timberwolf reminds me of this, it's getting absurd out there.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFTc-HUM6aU&t=2m50s

"bring it down bring it down bring it down"

Edited by Dakshinamurthy, 04 July 2014 - 03:41 AM.

[Ultimax]

Sun Cobra, on 04 July 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

Not to mention the increased torso twist speed which allows you to get off an alpha while barely exposing your weapon side. A victor with a 300 engine does not boast these same attributes. Then, of course, you have the fact that you can pack in more ammo and double heat sinks within optimal weapons load out if you run an XL. I'm done here.

Even with a larger engine, the Victor's torso twist speed is the same as an Atlas with equal engine size.

It is the only mech in the game with a 20 ton torso twist speed penalty.

[SgtMagor]

haven't used it much since the nerf, was using a 320xl, but put in the 340xl to hopefully make up for its downgrade...

my DS
2-AC5
3-Med laser
Srm6
Lrm10
AMS
480 armor
ENDO
DHS
340XL

[Sun Cobra]

Ultimatum X, on 04 July 2014 - 04:08 AM, said:

Even with a larger engine, the Victor's torso twist speed is the same as an Atlas with equal engine size.

It is the only mech in the game with a 20 ton torso twist speed penalty.

That's exactly why a high engine rating is useful...

[divinedisclaimer]

Adiuvo, on 03 July 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

Dragon Slayer

Mad Cat

The Mad Cat hasn't seen competitive play yet. All major leagues at the moment ban out clans until they're released for cbills. However, many competitive players, including some of the best assault/heavy pilots, think that the Timberwolf is pretty broke. Heat efficiency is not much of a problem with the speed it has. It can kite quite well and engage when it wants. Speed is of incredible importance in a 12man environment, and in pugs. It's part of the reason why Dragon Slayers are brought over 733Cs nowadays.

Mad Cat vs. Dragon Slayer isn't really the right comparison. With the advent of 3/3/3/3 and tournament class based drop decks, the Timberwolf is ridiculously powerful. It is better than a 3D. This can't be argued. It moves faster, is tankier, and runs better loadouts.

In comp you will still see Dragon Slayers. You need the DPS for coordinated pushes and a Mad Cat can't do 2xAC5/2xPPC like the DS can. However, if both are running gauss loadouts, top players all pretty much agree that the Mad Cat outclasses the DS.

People keep on exaggerating how big the CT is. This is stupid and misleading. No, if you're just face tanking someone it doesn't have the same survivability as a Dragon Slayer. Standing still, the DS will spread damage better. However, torso twisting is very effective in one and you can spread your damage at your whim with it. People also get very defensive about clans, even if its just one clan mech, being OP or not. In the end it's important for game balance to have these kinds of discussions. To that end, let's not toss out 'L2P' arguments unless a person has proven that they really need to L2P.

Thanks for taking the time to make this post, it was very informative.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 03 July 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

Is this a trick? The victor can't even fit a 300 standard if you want guns and ammo on it.

Odd it has guns and weapons with the original 320 engine. Or do you mean EXTRA weapons?