467 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

When properly piloted light mechs such as the Ember and the Jenner are perfectly balanced right now.

The real problem is that lights are meant to be scouts and harassers, and disorganized pug teams do not know how to take advantage of their lights.

The primary problem is lack of effective comms between PUG players.

To "fix" lights, I suggest either implementing in-game voice communications or implement more effective symbology communications.

In fact, I'd prefer pgi leave the in-game comms to programs like TS since having everyone talk in a pug game can:

A. Get really annoying.
B. Cause additional server load leading to lag, and HSR issues.

Instead, IMHO, a much better solution is to let players communicate with each other via symbology. For example:

* When a light pilot sees a heavy enemy force flanking the team, he should be able to lock on to them and press a single button to flash a warning to all teammates. The corresponding marker should show up on the tactical map.

* When light mechs lock onto an enemy mech long enough to read out it's paper doll, he should be able to flash that information to all team mates so that the last read shows up immediately when someone else on his team locks on.

* The light pilot should be able to lock onto an enemy that's in a good position for LRM fire and designate a special marker on him for to alert the LRM boats in the team.

* All players should be able to signal when they require ECM cover so that lights or other pilots with ECM can move in to help.

Of course the light should get XP, C-bills and match score for doing all of the above.

In an organized team all of this is done via voice Comms, which makes well piloted lights really really useful. Without voice comms, if there are ways to do the above on the fly with minimum number of key presses, lights will still be really really useful.

As things stand now, lights cannot stand still to type (because they will die). They cannot get the information they are gathering out to the team. Thus, they are not fulfilling their proper row as scouts, making their lack of damage output glaring.

This is what I'm talking about for NARC.

Honestly? Decouple NARC from just being an LRM buff. Make it an information management tool.

You NARC someone, everyone on your team gets instant access to their paperdoll on target selection.

It lasts 120 seconds.

Only mountable on lights/mediums, same as CC only on heavy/assaults.

It provides a minimal missile (LRM/SSRM) missile lock improvement.

It constantly provides damage% next to the target symbol.

Going under ECM coverage still pings you to enemy radar but all the other perks are lost, including the ability to lock missiles. Let it 'flicker' like being under ECM does within range, but at least it keeps you present for your allies radar.

This is the sort of powerful information sharing tool that PUGs need. Premades are no longer a big factor in the solo queue - that's awesome. It'll take a bit for behaviors to shake out and change like they should (people are still milling around, waiting for someone to carry them) but a simple, direct and informative iconic information sharing tool is a *huge* potential buff for lights/mediums.

It's the power to control the flow of the battle in a lot of ways. We need that.

[Mark Brandhauber]

Getting back to the OP, I think they really need to implement an XP or even C-Bill bonus for any class that is under 20%,Perhaps that will even it up.
Plus Assault and heavy only matches are seriously boring.

[JigglyMoobs]

Adiuvo, on 04 July 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

I expect to have the same impact on the game as an assault or heavy mech. If I catch those mechs in a position where they're weak and I'm strong - by themselves with their (supposed) limited maneuverability - I expect to be able to kill them. At the moment I do not have the same impact as a heavy or assault.

Impact != who you can kill. Impact means that if they take you off the team they are just as likely to lose the game as if they take out an assault. I don't know if you guys ever play Conquest in competition but if you do, surely you have an even bigger impact than any single assault?

Even if there are no weight limits and you are the only mech, is losing you as bad for the team as losing an assault? Surely your scouting in even the first 30 seconds makes a difference?

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I can do those things because I'm... well me. I've played the same class since closed beta. I'm good at it. The average light player? They can't do any of that. They are constantly outclassed even by people worse than them purely due to mech choice.

And you have trouble with good heavies and assaults because... they are good heavies and assaults.

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This isn't good if the game wants to ever have equal number of classes on the field.

But is there a good reason to demand that there is such a "balance"? I would think the better metric is: those who want to play lights will enjoy playing lights.

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The only time I can constantly hound heavies/assaults is if I drastically outskill them. If a fresh heavy/assault gets killed 1v1 by a light, that heavy/assault was woefully outplayed.

Again, harassment != kill. When I run into you in a game and I'm by myself, I don't expect you to kill me if I'm healthy, but I will retreat immediately because my perfect sniping perch is no longer tenable. Ok, you don't find that satisfying, but were you not there, I could pose serious problems even for the premades you run with if I get the right perch.

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Hunchbacks are taken often by SJR in their drops and Jagermechs are utilized often by 228th.

Great, I don't feel so bad for Jman anymore.

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Besides tonnage, I think limits in comp play are dumb. They change the game around to the point where you aren't really playing MWO, but instead you're playing some customized version of it. Such competitions are basically useless for determining who's really the best at MWO. Which is the point of comp.

Then figure out the right weight limit. Surely there is one. Plus the game is moving to 3/3/3/3 anyways.

[JigglyMoobs]

MischiefSC, on 04 July 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

This is what I'm talking about for NARC.

Honestly? Decouple NARC from just being an LRM buff. Make it an information management tool.

You NARC someone, everyone on your team gets instant access to their paperdoll on target selection.

It lasts 120 seconds.

....

Plus, for NARCed mechs or what not, why not overlay the paperdoll display on the mechs? All of a sudden the 75% of people out there who never pay attention to damaged components will have an unmistable and unmissable cues on where exactly to shoot.

[dario03]

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Yes Adi, but would you expect to take on a M1 tank in a Humvee?

As it stands your Ember is deadly to anyone with any important component stripped. If two of you guys travel in a pack, then you have a better than even chance of killing any heavy or assault mech. Plus they can never shake you because you are so much more mobile.

Even if you are playing by yourself, you can hound heavy and assaults all you want as long as:
A. You're going for harassment rather than kill.
B. You accept the occasional death by lucky shot.

I know that you get in tons of damage and kills in non-competitive games. Don't even try to deny it.

When I drop vs. you guys, if I see the guys in the heavy mechs I think, great, time to pull off to the side and snipe these guys. If I see "Adi" I think, dammit, time to run back to my team as fast as I can.

Competitive play is just.... different. If there were no weight limits you would not see 90% of the mechs in the game get any use. I mean, when was the last time you took a Jager in your 12 man, or a hunchie? I think you just need to advocate for weight limits and rules in comp play that help light pilots more. IMO, that's a better solution than imposing changes that would make lights OP in circumstances that the 90% of people who don't play competitively face.

A Ember is dangerous against a mech that has a open torso but really any mech is dangerous to you if you are open. (and I'm starting to think that mg fix really did nerf MGs). And often times its the heavies that do the opening. And 2v1 is 2v1 so not really a fair comparison, I wouldn't want to fight 2 Victors in my Victor. Your chances of landing a "lucky" shot on the Embers and taking one out or causing them to retreat is higher.

And yeah you can harass fresh heavies but again you can do that with any mech and with another heavy you could do it from range while still being effective if someone gets up close.

I use the Ember a lot and yeah it is possible to do good in regular games in a Ember but it is a lot more situational. In a Ember you really need to attack the open targets or lone targets that you have a advantage over. That of course is a good strategy for any mech but its more of a requirement for lights, and in the standard Ember build you really need at least one team to be pushing or the other team to be splitting up a lot because you don't have range. I'm a lot more comfortable taking my fresh Victor against any fresh mech and pilot than I am taking my Ember vs any fresh mech and pilot.

Edited by dario03, 04 July 2014 - 05:53 PM.

[Jonny Taco]

Maps are too small, overly designed and far too predictable for lights to ever be viable in their true rolls... Deployment cost and logistics are also not relevant removing yet another advantage... Furthermore, just imagine if hit detection actually worked as well... The problem would be even worse... Role warfare in this game is unfortunately fundamentally broken.

Edited by lartfor, 04 July 2014 - 05:57 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

dario03, on 04 July 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

I use the Ember a lot and yeah it is possible to do good in regular games in a Ember but it is a lot more situational. In a Ember you really need to attack the open targets or lone targets that you have a advantage over. That of course is a good strategy for any mech but its more of a requirement for lights. I'm a lot more comfortable taking my fresh Victor against any fresh mech and pilot than I am taking my Ember vs any fresh mech and pilot.

Dario,

Here's my question though, and this applies to Adi also. Why is this bad? Isn't getting a different game-play experience whole point of having a different mech class in the first place?

Every mech class has advantages and limitations, but that's what makes them different. Personally, if a class of mechs was under utilized, I would rather have changes that open up more diversity and capabilities than changes that sort of homogenizes everything together. The latter might be a good fix for the frustrations you are feeling in the short term, but in the long term it would make things more boring than the former option, IMHO.

[MischiefSC]

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

Plus, for NARCed mechs or what not, why not overlay the paperdoll display on the mechs? All of a sudden the 75% of people out there who never pay attention to damaged components will have an unmistable and unmissable cues on where exactly to shoot.

Too much work. Great idea, but unlikely to ever see it. Think 'simple, fast, unlikely to cause issues'.

When suggesting features that people are not literally going to directly pay cash for (like new mechs) you need to essentially recommend recycling existing features or functions in new ways. Businesses need to make money - billable hours need to equate to black ink somewhere or the idea is likely going on the priorities list somewhere next to 'colonoscopy'.

[Adiuvo]

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Impact != who you can kill. Impact means that if they take you off the team they are just as likely to lose the game as if they take out an assault. I don't know if you guys ever play Conquest in competition but if you do, surely you have an even bigger impact than any single assault?

I never said that impact had to be the same as killing potential. Ideally it wouldn't have to. Only it is, because of the ways the maps are designed and that assault mode got ruined.

When Lords play conquest we cap theta, cap the side point, then kill whatever is left. None of our games have turned into some kind of revolving cap situation, because our heavies/assaults kill everything.

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Even if there are no weight limits and you are the only mech, is losing you as bad for the team as losing an assault? Surely your scouting in even the first 30 seconds makes a difference?

No, it really isn't. Losing a light kinda sucks just like losing anyone, but if you lose a Dragon Slayer early due to arti headshot? GG, you'll now be losing literally every trade assuming equal skill.

Scouting doesn't really exist in this game. The maps are too static. You know a general area as to where the enemy will be if they're playing ideally. If they're not playing ideally they're just going to be fighting on terms that are better for you. The only kinda useful thing about scouting is knowing enemy team comp... which will be obvious quite soon anyways.

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

And you have trouble with good heavies and assaults because... they are good heavies and assaults.

This is going to sound incredibly narcissistic, but I'm one of the best light pilots in the game. Some, like Jager, say I am the best. Despite this, there are numerous situations in this game where I am basically useless, because of things intrinsic to the heavy/assault game.

• I'm outranged. That's cool, I can close, right?
  
• Yay I've closed. Oh no, they can track me just as well at close range as they can far. Oh well.
  
• I'll ambush! Yay I got an alpha in his back!... **** he turned around and so has the entire rest of the team. Ohhh wellll.
  
• Oh you're by yourself? Awesome! But wait you can still track me perfectly despite the whole point of your mech is to be slow but with lots of firepower and mine the opposite. Yay.
  
• Random Daishi shot LOL. GG bro you put a lot of effort in.

It's a matter of skill investment. Lights require probably the most skill to do passable in compared to any class, but get little reward for it. Heavies/Assaults meanwhile are somewhat easy in comparison, but get rewarded majorly. Looking at it in another way, is there any situation where a Timberwolf or Dragon Slayer is weak? Unfortunately, there isn't.

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

But is there a good reason to demand that there is such a "balance"? I would think the better metric is: those who want to play lights will enjoy playing lights.

Lights aren't ever going to be enjoyable by many if they're constantly outclassed at every role. The queues show as much.

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Again, harassment != kill. When I run into you in a game and I'm by myself, I don't expect you to kill me if I'm healthy, but I will retreat immediately because my perfect sniping perch is no longer tenable. Ok, you don't find that satisfying, but were you not there, I could pose serious problems even for the premades you run with if I get the right perch.

If there was an extra copy of Trev or Jager on the team in a jumpsniper chances are you wouldn't have been able to be up there either. Or if I, instead of playing lights, decided to play a jumpsniper my entire MWO career.

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Great, I don't feel so bad for Jman anymore.

In our drops versus QQ they did in fact have Jman in a Hunch... though I feel that was more of a special exception since they didn't have any others =/

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Then figure out the right weight limit. Surely there is one. Plus the game is moving to 3/3/3/3 anyways.

12-man comp has weights ranging from 540-860. What I said applies to all of them.

[MischiefSC]

Adiuvo, on 04 July 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

I never said that impact had to be the same as killing potential. Ideally it wouldn't have to. Only it is, because of the ways the maps are designed and that assault mode got ruined.

When Lords play conquest we cap theta, cap the side point, then kill whatever is left. None of our games have turned into some kind of revolving cap situation, because our heavies/assaults kill everything.



No, it really isn't. Losing a light kinda sucks just like losing anyone, but if you lose a Dragon Slayer early due to arti headshot? GG, you'll now be losing literally every trade assuming equal skill.

Scouting doesn't really exist in this game. The maps are too static. You know a general area as to where the enemy will be if they're playing ideally. If they're not playing ideally they're just going to be fighting on terms that are better for you. The only kinda useful thing about scouting is knowing enemy team comp... which will be obvious quite soon anyways.



This is going to sound incredibly narcissistic, but I'm one of the best light pilots in the game. Some, like Jager, say I am the best. Despite this, there are numerous situations in this game where I am basically useless, because of things intrinsic to the heavy/assault game.

• I'm outranged. That's cool, I can close, right?
  
• Yay I've closed. Oh no, they can track me just as well at close range as they can far. Oh well.
  
• I'll ambush! Yay I got an alpha in his back!... **** he turned around and so has the entire rest of the team. Ohhh wellll.
  
• Oh you're by yourself? Awesome! But wait you can still track me perfectly despite the whole point of your mech is to be slow but with lots of firepower and mine the opposite. Yay.
  
• Random Daishi shot LOL. GG bro you put a lot of effort in.

It's a matter of skill investment. Lights require probably the most skill to do passable in compared to any class, but get little reward for it. Heavies/Assaults meanwhile are somewhat easy in comparison, but get rewarded majorly. Looking at it in another way, is there any situation where a Timberwolf or Dragon Slayer is weak? Unfortunately, there isn't.




Lights aren't ever going to be enjoyable by many if they're constantly outclassed at every role. The queues show as much.



If there was an extra copy of Trev or Jager on the team in a jumpsniper chances are you wouldn't have been able to be up there either. Or if I, instead of playing lights, decided to play a jumpsniper my entire MWO career.



In our drops versus QQ they did in fact have Jman in a Hunch... though I feel that was more of a special exception since they didn't have any others =/



12-man comp has weights ranging from 540-860. What I said applies to all of them.

I'm with you 110% - here's the thing though.

The goal is not to make your 4-6 MLs as dangerous as a Daishis 2ERPPCs and 2xGauss.

It's to let you make the whole rest of your team more effective. THAT is ideal balancing for lights - otherwise you create a bell curve that makes the best light pilots pull way above their weight in terms of damage and kills. The issue with balancing lights to allow high skill to = nearly untouchable is, well, spiders who can solo 6 mechs. We've had that before and it wasn't that fun.

More IW stuff for lights would be better. Useful stuff.

[Kampfer]

Now that Hit Recognition is up a bit, playing lights is very unforgiving. I've played entire games where I get legged or cored within the the first 2 minutes of the game by a lucky sniper from 1,000m + away while moving. I've been killed some games without getting a single shot off. Lights are not easy to play. I usually play Kit Foxes and Novas and in the current game they both die pretty damn quick.
With my Kit Fox I'm kinda set up to do as little fighting as possible, the safest thing is to hide behind a rock with 6,000 rounds of AMS and cover my team with ECM and even then someone decides that nobody else on my team deserves to get shot at but me. Other games I'll get a kill or two and around 300 damage. It all depends on if the enemy team pulls my name out of a hat and their whole team tries to Alpha me within the first 3 minutes of the game.
Not exactly a glorious way to play but If I survive the team usually does pretty well with my support.
But someone else did mention I could get a whole lot more Cbills for playing something heavier and doing more damage and kills. Lights are very unrewarded unless you do some VERY aggressive TAG and NARC work and of course those jobs are super dangerous for light mechs that can barely break 100kph

[MischiefSC]

Seriously - changes to NARC, and some sort of tag-like laser option for lights without missile mounts. Paints a target and so long as they are within visual range it provides all their info to allied mechs. Things like that - things to let you share useful (like damage %) info instantly to allies.

Not just buffs to LRMs, because then it's useless for pugging - no way to know who's going to bring LRMs or not. We need to decouple NARC and the like from just LRM support. Make it more about useful information warfare (maintaining targeting out of visual range, sharing damage percentage and loadouts of enemies instantly to everyone on your team) and pin it to lights and mediums.

[ICEFANG13]

Lights are incredibly powerful, and can, although sometimes dangerously and with risk, solo any other mech size in the game. Unfortunately, 4 lights lose to 4 (other sizes) pretty handily, and it gets much much worse as that increases. With so much info that is so free (nothing specifically wrong with that), you have really no stealth advantage, and zero room for error. Honestly the biggest problem with lights is just one big thing. Its just better to ball up and have more weapons and armor. Although I'm with you, the average reader, in that making the game 12v12 was an improvement, for lights, it has made them worse indirectly. When a game goes into 4v4 near the end, your value increases so much, as long as you don't take too much stray fire earlier.

Until the time comes where there is real actual game types that require tactics and thought (and even maybe speed, or a balance, like mediums), there will never be a time where lights are actually preferred overall. Making the caps take so long in conquest ended the little concept of tactics this game had, and its really more of a 12ball vs 12ball.

Of course, not every game is like that, there are games where lights have their use, and I agree with that concept completely, but when some attack/defend mode is created, that requires people to split forces under pressure, then all mech sizes will have a roll. Its not much of a surprise to me that lights are actually overall weaker when every one of the game modes really is just skirmish or skirmish with a twist.

It also does not surprise me that with clan mechs being released, and the clan lights, well in my opinion, sucking, there are much less around at this time.

[MischiefSC]

Hmm.

Not sure how viable this is but....

shrink range at which lights show up on radar or seismic? Increase lock times?

They're a smaller sensor profile. It's not unreasonable to reflect that somehow.

[wanderer]

At this point, I'd call running a light higher-risk, period.

(Yes, we have some gawd-tier light pilots out there.)

Put reward multipliers in for going lighter. 125% for a medium, 150% for a light. Call it R&R in reverse- it takes less to put one back together, so they end up having more left over at the end. (Don't penalize heavy/assaults)

If someone in a light's making 100k or so, that puts them up to 150K with the multiplier. And that's good by me, especially if it encourages more good light/medium pilots to get in and stay in.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

stjobe, on 04 July 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

Yeah, those lights TOTALLY dominate the game, it's not even fun any more. There's just nothing my mediums, heavies, or assaults can do when one of those bad boys show up; it's just gg close and that's all she wrote.

Just look at the forums! It's chock-full of complaint threads about the 2-years-and-counting-now Light meta; how Lights rule the game at top tier, and how PGI really should do something, anything, to curb them.

:/

get good and drive a light mech then

Edited by Battlecruiser, 04 July 2014 - 06:59 PM.

[Sandpit]

wanderer, on 04 July 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

At this point, I'd call running a light higher-risk, period.

(Yes, we have some gawd-tier light pilots out there.)

Put reward multipliers in for going lighter. 125% for a medium, 150% for a light. Call it R&R in reverse- it takes less to put one back together, so they end up having more left over at the end. (Don't penalize heavy/assaults)

If someone in a light's making 100k or so, that puts them up to 150K with the multiplier. And that's good by me, especially if it encourages more good light/medium pilots to get in and stay in.

I like ideas like this but I'd really like to see something go a step further.

This idea will help get a variety in weight classes but not in chassis. We need to come up with some ideas on how to get more variety in mechs on the battlefield. A reason to make players want to take mechs like Trebs, Locusts, commandos, etc.

MischiefSC, on 04 July 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

Hmm.

Not sure how viable this is but....

shrink range at which lights show up on radar or seismic? Increase lock times?

They're a smaller sensor profile. It's not unreasonable to reflect that somehow.

another good idea

[wanderer]

Sandpit, on 04 July 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

I like ideas like this but I'd really like to see something go a step further.

This idea will help get a variety in weight classes but not in chassis. We need to come up with some ideas on how to get more variety in mechs on the battlefield. A reason to make players want to take mechs like Trebs, Locusts, commandos, etc.

another good idea

Whelp, you've got my 5-tier proposal on my sig line, for starters. You do that, and you can actually tweak things a bit further. 20-30 tonners get the "high-risk reward" and pick up, say 160%. 35-45 tonners get 140%. 50-60 tonners 120%. 65+ get 100%.

You can also modify the TOTAL reward based on weight balance. If a team comes in underweight, give the team a bonus for "underbidding" the fight, as it were- fluffwise, it's cheaper to upkeep mediums and lights so again, more leftover for paying out if all "contracts" assume 3/3/3/3 as the average or heavier. Add 10% to -everyone's- total for each light 'Mech past the third, 5% per medium (on top of the bonuses they already get).

So playing a light or medium gets compensation for throwing less weight around, and if enough people do so, everyone gets a benefit on top of that.

[topgun505]

If PGI released the clan Dragonfly you'd probably see considerably more lights on the field.

[wanderer]

topgun505, on 04 July 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

If PGI released the clan Dragonfly you'd probably see considerably more lights on the field.

Dragonflies are mediums, at 40 tons- like Cicadas.