467 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Jherek C, on 04 July 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

Still the light and also mediums been always the lowest number.

Alistair Winter, on 04 July 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

Any thoughts on why heavy and assault mechs are so much more popular than light and medium mechs?

In a society where people are constantly bombarded since childhood that "bigger is better", it is any wonder that the same attitude appears in their leisure time?

[Alistair Winter]

Mystere, on 04 July 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

In a society where people are constantly bombarded since childhood that "bigger is better", it is any wonder that the same attitude appears in their leisure time?

Did you miss the part of the thread where we talked about the Age of Squawk? Remember that? When light mechs dominated the game? That attitude disappeared rather quickly when light mechs were OP.

I'm quite confident that the ability to win is the most important factor here.

[Mystere]

Alistair Winter, on 04 July 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Did you miss the part of the thread where we talked about the Age of Squawk? Remember that? When light mechs dominated the game? That attitude disappeared rather quickly when light mechs were OP.

Choosing something for being "OP" is still covered in the "bigger is better" mentality. I leave the "Why?" for you to figure out.

Alistair Winter, on 04 July 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

I'm quite confident that the ability to win is the most important factor here.

Precisely. (Hint! Hint!)

Edited by Mystere, 04 July 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[DaZur]

Bryan Ekman, on 04 July 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

To reiterate.. this is not representative of light usage, only the current number of players looking for a match with lights.

Reading comprehension is at an all-time low since the Clans dropped... That said, I don't think it'd stick even if you wrote that with the big, fat Crayola crayons.

[Spades Kincaid]

Mystere, on 04 July 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Choosing something for being "OP" is still covered in the "bigger is better" mentality. I leave the "Why?" for you to figure out.




Precisely. (Hint! Hint!)

No, that would be "Better is Better."

[Deathlike]

DaZur, on 04 July 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Reading comprehension is at an all-time low since the Clans dropped... That said, I don't think it'd stick even if you wrote that with the big, fat Crayola crayons.

Well, I already knew this. If you picked a Light or Medium while soloing when the queue is starved for them, you are immediately dropped into a match. Therefore, your existence in the queue... is virtually non-existent. Most likely those in the queue are likely in some sizable premade though.

[Gorgo7]

Yokaiko, on 04 July 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Well since damage is really all that matters for payout......yeah


Your entire thing is to FURTHER reduce payout with artillery?

Payout is irrelevant, there is nothing to spend it on...unless of course you are saving up for an assault? 'Cause those babies COST bro'! Unlike the wee little lights that are doomed fail because of ALL those giant stompy overpowered robots out there...wait a minute...isn't there something called weight matching?

Anyway, generally this topic is stupid. Eight new mechs get dropped into game ALL of which are iconic Clan machines with new technology. A pile of new in game mechanics also gets thrust in as well as a new matcher.
Ding dong, writes a topic called Everyone is playing Timberwolves "6% and damn if Im not good at whipping up a firestorm
about nothing."
Generally the people complaining or offering radical suggestions are poor players. Great posters, poor players. I have yet to see anyone even mention what they pilot except a couple of confident light jockeys who proclaim all is well.

What does that tell you? It tells me that jumping on the wagon is alive and well.

13, 16, 43, 27

OMG Not enough assaults playing!

6:06 EST

16, 18, 36, 30

6:44 EST

Edited by Gorgo7, 04 July 2014 - 02:42 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

When properly piloted light mechs such as the Ember and the Jenner are perfectly balanced right now.

The real problem is that lights are meant to be scouts and harassers, and disorganized pug teams do not know how to take advantage of their lights.

The primary problem is lack of effective comms between PUG players.

To "fix" lights, I suggest either implementing in-game voice communications or implement more effective symbology communications.

In fact, I'd prefer pgi leave the in-game comms to programs like TS since having everyone talk in a pug game can:

A. Get really annoying.
B. Cause additional server load leading to lag, and HSR issues.

Instead, IMHO, a much better solution is to let players communicate with each other via symbology. For example:

* When a light pilot sees a heavy enemy force flanking the team, he should be able to lock on to them and press a single button to flash a warning to all teammates. The corresponding marker should show up on the tactical map.

* When light mechs lock onto an enemy mech long enough to read out it's paper doll, he should be able to flash that information to all team mates so that the last read shows up immediately when someone else on his team locks on.

* The light pilot should be able to lock onto an enemy that's in a good position for LRM fire and designate a special marker on him for to alert the LRM boats in the team.

* All players should be able to signal when they require ECM cover so that lights or other pilots with ECM can move in to help.

Of course the light should get XP, C-bills and match score for doing all of the above.

In an organized team all of this is done via voice Comms, which makes well piloted lights really really useful. Without voice comms, if there are ways to do the above on the fly with minimum number of key presses, lights will still be really really useful.

As things stand now, lights cannot stand still to type (because they will die). They cannot get the information they are gathering out to the team. Thus, they are not fulfilling their proper row as scouts, making their lack of damage output glaring.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Heavies are the ****.

Heavies have always been the ****.

Comparable firepower to assault class with speed, maneuverability and in quite a few cases, jump jets to boot. The best armor is the armor not used.

And assaults, are well...freaking assaults! we like our big guns sometimes too.

Lights are too freaking hard to use well. They are THE hardest mech to pilot on this game and can be pretty brutal and unrewarding to play. Lights are usually the first dead, and can get thier rear ends handed to them by one well placed shot, or designated light mech killers packing streak ssrm's with beagle. Thats about the only class of mech that can have builds specifically designed to kill it.

[Devil Fox]

N0MAD, on 04 July 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:

So what you are implying is that the game is not suited for Lights, that is very true in my opinion.
What you should be asking for is that PGI make a game that is suitable for content (mechs) they provide and not to fix it so that people who do not like to pilot Lights are forced (3x4) to use them, especially when the game doesnt suit them.
Thats really the point isnt it? alot of people saying we want more lights/ we want more reward, buff lights, make the MM so it forces more Lights, when in reality the game doesnt have a role for lights. You are asking more people to use a mech that by the games nature is obsolete.

Then you ain't reading it correct... the game forces lights into become obsolete by the very mechanics of the system overall that promotes heavier mechs and more FLD mechanics via the various systems inplace (like ghost heat, rewards based mostly on dmg & kills, HSR fixes).

No where did I tell people in my reply to play a light mech, that's what PGI is saying with their queue system. Light's can have a role, but it's been relegated to 2... long range sniper, or pinpoint striker/brawler from within the pack... this is compounded by no ingame comms, making text chat the only option and that's only when your pugs decide they want to read it, and another question if they act on it.

The issue is there have to be more incentives to take lights, you may be pushing your own biased ideas of what people want... lights at the present moment (particularly IS lights) require no buffs, some may require hitbox checks and improvements (Raven's leg hitboxes still too large after HSR was fixed, and Spiders are still too hard to hit post-HSR), weapon load-outs overall are in a good place, but ECM still dominates the light bracket as an essential piece of equipment invalidating secondary variants of some mechs like the Raven or Spider. What light's need is rewards for doing what a light SHOULD do, give them purpose and reward that purpose... that's all that's needed, an incentive to run a light and use it as it was meant to be.

Until then light's are more mobile mediums with usually harder to hit hitboxes, some do great in that play style, I come from the past CB 8v8 games where scouting actually meant something and whilst is making a come back in the group queue, is still dead in the water for solo queue like it was pre-MM update.

[JigglyMoobs]

xXBagheeraXx, on 04 July 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

Heavies are the ****.

Heavies have always been the ****.

Comparable firepower to assault class with speed, maneuverability and in quite a few cases, jump jets to boot. The best armor is the armor not used.

And assaults, are well...freaking assaults! we like our big guns sometimes too.

Lights are too freaking hard to use well. They are THE hardest mech to pilot on this game and can be pretty brutal and unrewarding to play. Lights are usually the first dead, and can get thier rear ends handed to them by one well placed shot, or designated light mech killers packing streak ssrm's with beagle. Thats about the only class of mech that can have builds specifically designed to kill it.

You're dying because you're trying to get the light to do what it's never supposed to do, namely, take on fully healthy heavy mechs while they are massed.

What light mech pilots are supposed to do is to observe and report on enemy dispositions, target missiles, harass isolated flankers, snipers and LRM boats, get cap points in conquest, and finish off stripped enemy mechs after heavier mechs use their greater firepower to put in the initial damage.

If you stick to the proper role of the light mech in a team that can use the lights in the right way then they are great. The problem here is:

A. Some people want to use lights as faster versions of medium mechs and medium mechs. That's not going to ever work and it's not supposed to work that way.
B. Since 85% of the value of lights is the information they gather, most PUG teams have no way of making use of lights correctly without convenient communications.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 04 July 2014 - 04:14 PM.

[Adiuvo]

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

You're dying because you're trying to get the light to do what it's never supposed to do, namely, take on fully healthy heavy mechs while they are massed.

Lights can't even take on an equally skilled heavy or assault pilot when they're by themselves. They aren't agile enough.

Reducing lights down to a pure, or even primarily information gathering role is NOT a fun game mechanic. These maps aren't even big enough to call for that, and with the level of detail they have they never will be. Lights are not pure scouts. Nor should they be purely reliant on their team to do anything.

In comp play lights are primarily used as pure distraction. That's it. If you didn't have tonnage limits you would have maybe 2 lights at most, most likely 1.

Edited by Adiuvo, 04 July 2014 - 04:25 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Lights are fun and I can get good damage/kills in one.

But like a whole lot of other people. I am basicing out some clan mechs (finally bought a madcat a la cart)

So I do not expect a balanced list ATM.

And I would not be suprised to see kit foxes galore when they become available like the day of the locust was when they came out.

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 04 July 2014 - 04:30 PM.

[Devil Fox]

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

As things stand now, lights cannot stand still to type (because they will die). They cannot get the information they are gathering out to the team. Thus, they are not fulfilling their proper row as scouts, making their lack of damage output glaring.

Agreed, and the ideas you listed seem plausible and possible. If they link it into this comm rose they've been talking about for months it might make scouting much more valuable both to the team and the individual. Simple because at the moment even in group queue on comms a light isn't meant to scout... I often get yells over comms where's our ECM whilst I'm half way across a map scouting to identify what the enemy might do, instead I'm meant to baby sit larger machines just so they don't get rocks by LRM's without their own AMS -.-

[xXBagheeraXx]

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

You're dying because you're trying to get the light to do what it's never supposed to do, namely, take on fully healthy heavy mechs while they are massed.

What light mech pilots are supposed to do is to observe and report on enemy dispositions, target missiles, harass isolated flankers, snipers and LRM boats, get cap points in conquest, and finish off stripped enemy mechs after heavier mechs use their greater firepower to put in the initial damage.

If you stick to the proper role of the light mech in a team that can use the lights in the right way then they are great. The problem here is:

A. Some people want to use lights as faster versions of medium mechs and medium mechs. That's not going to ever work and it's not supposed to work that way.
B. Since 85% of the value of lights is the information they gather, most PUG teams have no way of making use of lights correctly without convenient communications.

Exactly why i say its the hardest thing to do. I know how to pilot light mechs. I know my role is scouting and support. But ONE foul move can end you really quickly. Why I said lights are incredibly unforgiving to play. Picking off isolated targets, knowing when to gank someone and when to bug the hell out, knowing the right moment to move in to scout, to distract, what have you takes a lot more skill.

When i drive my dire wolf B, all i'm worried about is:

Where the biggest baddest enemy assault is.

Where is a corner or hill for me to hump.

Keeping some allied mechs nearby so i don't get ganked.

Putting my 80 damage into his ct repeatedly. By doing this I'm doing my job as an assault, and the longer I live, and the more damage/kills I do, the better my team does. Since i always prioritize the big nasty enemy dire wolves, and ecm lights/assaults first, my team does better. and what little return fire i get is easily absorbed (usually) by my fantastic frontal armor.

Heavies are much the same, except im faster but with less armor, so have to play more cautiously. Mediums are just high speed flank and spankers for the most part, with decent enough fire power to finish off wounded opponets fairly quickly, and pretty good speed for getting away from most of the big boys if they find themselves in trouble.

Lights are a different story. The list of things that can ruin your game in a matter of seconds are endless. Go around the wrong corner? One shot legged. Peek over a hill where someones preaimed? one shot killed. You have to constantly read the map, look for distracted lone enemy mechs, pray to GOD he doesnt have streaks, watch your jumpjet landings, make sure his friends dont come to help, pray to GOD some missile boat isnt watching in the distance and start lobbing in your direction etc. etc.

While im sitting in the back going OH LOOK that guys not paying attention to me! HERE have 80 damage in that side torso!

Yeah you tell me why more people dont drive lights....lol

[JigglyMoobs]

Adiuvo, on 04 July 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Lights can't even take on an equally skilled heavy or assault pilot when they're by themselves. They aren't agile enough.

Reducing lights down to a pure, or even primarily information gathering role is NOT a fun game mechanic. These maps aren't even big enough to call for that, and with the level of detail they have they never will be. Lights are not pure scouts. Nor should they be purely reliant on their team to do anything.

In comp play lights are primarily used as pure distraction. That's it. If you didn't have tonnage limits you would have maybe 2 lights at most, most likely 1.

Yes Adi, but would you expect to take on a M1 tank in a Humvee?

As it stands your Ember is deadly to anyone with any important component stripped. If two of you guys travel in a pack, then you have a better than even chance of killing any heavy or assault mech. Plus they can never shake you because you are so much more mobile.

Even if you are playing by yourself, you can hound heavy and assaults all you want as long as:
A. You're going for harassment rather than kill.
B. You accept the occasional death by lucky shot.

I know that you get in tons of damage and kills in non-competitive games. Don't even try to deny it.

When I drop vs. you guys, if I see the guys in the heavy mechs I think, great, time to pull off to the side and snipe these guys. If I see "Adi" I think, dammit, time to run back to my team as fast as I can.

Competitive play is just.... different. If there were no weight limits you would not see 90% of the mechs in the game get any use. I mean, when was the last time you took a Jager in your 12 man, or a hunchie? I think you just need to advocate for weight limits and rules in comp play that help light pilots more. IMO, that's a better solution than imposing changes that would make lights OP in circumstances that the 90% of people who don't play competitively face.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 04 July 2014 - 04:55 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

What they need to do is make information gathering more benefitial and profitable...and give light mechs bonuses for doing such.

Again, i hate to use "that other game" as an example but light tanks in world of tanks can be absolutely crushing. one well positioned light mech, lighting up the enemy team and not getting the crap kicked out of him in return can ruin an entire team before the game even starts. ive seen one tank parked in a bush get nearly all the enemy teams top tanks killed in a matter of seconds. If light mechs perhaps got some bonus sensor quirks added to them, or got lots of cbills for spotting, and BONUS cbills and xp for enemies taking damage while they were spotted, you would perhaps see light mechs take the information warfare thing a little more seriously.

Raven 3Ls wouldnt run the selfish Er large laser Ecm "B!tch build" as i call it and sit in a corner all game henpecking with er large lasers. I belive that mech comes stock with ecm and beagle so the mech can get out front, spot further than the opponents can pick them up on sensors due to ecm, and tag/narc things for allied missile boats to ruin people with.

Perhaps we could also make tag invisible unless you turned on heat vision or night vision, so ninja spotters could do their deadly work without being seen.

and REWARD players for good spotting. if they spot a crapton of lrm damage they should be nearly as rewarded as the missileboats themselves who racked up 1k damage thanks to that ecm 3L spotter. Non ecm lights can stick to the usual anti-light patrol/ flanking harrasing/ support role.

Add in "legging" bonuses. If you are in a light mech, and leg a big fat heavy and assault, you get bonus credits for destroying his leg compnent and any damage he takes immediately after that. Light mechs will LITERALLY be rewarded for being ankle biters. HELL that could even be an ACHIEVEMENT.

Give lights bigger cbill bonuses for damage inflicted, and components destroyed/enemies killed. Lights dont pack a lot of firepower, so getting 400 damage in a freaking commando should be rewarded just as well as scoring 1k+ in my dire wolf.

[oldradagast]

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

You're dying because you're trying to get the light to do what it's never supposed to do, namely, take on fully healthy heavy mechs while they are massed.

What light mech pilots are supposed to do is to observe and report on enemy dispositions, target missiles, harass isolated flankers, snipers and LRM boats, get cap points in conquest, and finish off stripped enemy mechs after heavier mechs use their greater firepower to put in the initial damage.

If you stick to the proper role of the light mech in a team that can use the lights in the right way then they are great. The problem here is:

A. Some people want to use lights as faster versions of medium mechs and medium mechs. That's not going to ever work and it's not supposed to work that way.
B. Since 85% of the value of lights is the information they gather, most PUG teams have no way of making use of lights correctly without convenient communications.

If what a mech is "supposed to do" is basically no fun at all - running around and reporting on enemy positions - than it is no shock that people aren't interested in playing them.

Additionally, scouting and such isn't even rewarded in the game! I guess you could argue that the indirect reward is a higher chance of victory, but that's skating on thin ice, and doesn't mean the player has fun typing in the chat box as his main contribution for the match.

People play games like this to shoot stuff and have brawls, not to run around while trying to type meaningful info in a box or stand in squares watching a flickering readout slowly change color. That's why, IMHO, lights need more useful roles to PLAY, not just roles that involve a minimal amount of play or fun.

[JigglyMoobs]

oldradagast, on 04 July 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

If what a mech is "supposed to do" is basically no fun at all - running around and reporting on enemy positions - than it is no shock that people aren't interested in playing them.

Additionally, scouting and such isn't even rewarded in the game! I guess you could argue that the indirect reward is a higher chance of victory, but that's skating on thin ice, and doesn't mean the player has fun typing in the chat box as his main contribution for the match.

People play games like this to shoot stuff and have brawls, not to run around while trying to type meaningful info in a box or stand in squares watching a flickering readout slowly change color. That's why, IMHO, lights need more useful roles to PLAY, not just roles that involve a minimal amount of play or fun.

Different people find different things fun. If you wanted to just shoot stuff and brawl, why not get the biggest baddest mech to brawl in?

On the other hand, some people may instead enjoy hiding behind a hill and lasing an assault mech that has no idea why tons and tons of LRMs are raining on his head. That guy probably isn't you, but that's why there are different roles.

Role warfare, supposedly the end of having different classes in the first place!

I was very excited, actually, about doing just the thing described above, until the first time I tried a light in a PUG and figured out that nobody on my team gave a flying..... *felafel* what I was reporting or designating. XD

[Adiuvo]

JigglyMoobs, on 04 July 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Yes Adi, but would you expect to take on a M1 tank in a Humvee?

As it stands your Ember is deadly to anyone with any important component stripped. If two of you guys travel in a pack, then you have a better than even chance of killing any heavy or assault mech. Plus they can never shake you because you are so much more mobile.

Even if you are playing by yourself, you can hound heavy and assaults all you want as long as:
A. You're going for harassment rather than kill.
B. You accept the occasional death by lucky shot.

I know that you get in tons of damage and kills in non-competitive games. Don't even try to deny it.

When I drop vs. you guys, if I see the guys in the heavy mechs I think, great, time to pull off to the side and snipe these guys. If I see "Adi" I think, dammit, time to run back to my team as fast as I can.

Competitive play is just.... different. If there were no weight limits you would not see 90% of the mechs in the game get any use. I mean, when was the last time you took a Jager in your 12 man, or a hunchie? I think you just need to advocate for weight limits and rules in comp play that help light pilots more. IMO, that's a better solution than imposing changes that would make lights OP in circumstances that the 90% of people who don't play competitively face.

I expect to have the same impact on the game as an assault or heavy mech. If I catch those mechs in a position where they're weak and I'm strong - by themselves with their (supposed) limited maneuverability - I expect to be able to kill them. At the moment I do not have the same impact as a heavy or assault.

I can do those things because I'm... well me. I've played the same class since closed beta. I'm good at it. The average light player? They can't do any of that. They are constantly outclassed even by people worse than them purely due to mech choice. This isn't good if the game wants to ever have equal number of classes on the field.

The only time I can constantly hound heavies/assaults is if I drastically outskill them. If a fresh heavy/assault gets killed 1v1 by a light, that heavy/assault was woefully outplayed.

Hunchbacks are taken often by SJR in their drops and Jagermechs are utilized often by 228th.

Besides tonnage, I think limits in comp play are dumb. They change the game around to the point where you aren't really playing MWO, but instead you're playing some customized version of it. Such competitions are basically useless for determining who's really the best at MWO. Which is the point of comp.