467 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Mordin Ashe, on 03 July 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

I want more rewards and strick limiting heavies and assaults. No game is worse with 4 lights or mediums, but with 4 heavies and 4 assaults the game is not worth playing at all.
Recommentadion: More rewards for lights, in every way possible. Right now they are not worth taking and it must change. Also, reduce mobility, turning rate etc an all heavies and assaults, they are far too agile for what they should be. Assaults are to be clumsy and very slow turning, and heavies should be somehow close to that too.

Adding money bonuses to lights won't do a thing, because light mechs are bad, so make no money anyway.

[Johnny Reb]

I have noting

[ShinVector]

Vassago Rain, on 03 July 2014 - 10:44 PM, said:

Adding money bonuses to lights won't do a thing, because light mechs are bad, so make no money anyway.

Lights at high ELO is 'bad' because they are 1shottable...
It is also the matchmaker makes fault ignoring weight class match making when trying to balance team ELO.
So High ELO light pilot = High ELO assault pilot. This is simply no a fair match up.

Anyway.. I need to test the new MM further...

What I was feeling was the teams was more balanced.. Equal ELO pilots are being match up regardless of weight class but at least you not being put against a 4 man pre-made of Poptarting assaults.

Edited by ShinVector, 03 July 2014 - 11:15 PM.

[Cavendish]

I would guess that next week and the Kit Fox for MC we will see quite a spike of the number of lights that will continue with the Kit Fox for Cbills in August.

Then the complaints about lack of lights will be replaced by "omfg Clan weapons need FLD versions!" when a lot of the people yelling about Clans being OP get to experience the joy of burstfire ACs, longer burning lasers and streamed LRMs that a Kit Fox can mostly negate on its own with 3 AMS and the module.

[Kmieciu]

Sandpit, on 03 July 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

I suggested lower prices on the unpopular mechs. Cheap mechs = more bought = more on the battelfield.
Higher prices on popular mechs. Expensive mechs = less bought = less on the battlefield.

That's exactly how one of the campaign servers for MM did along with other things like inflated and deflated Elo based on that mech's performance in the campaign across all pilots. Same with BV values.

Until there is something of an incentive and reason to take those mechs, what you have now, what you've had for nearly 2 years, will be what you have for the next 5 years.

This won't do because it's too much work for PGI to tweak prices according to mech popularity. And I doubt they even want to have a real economy in the game so an automated system is out of the question.

Besides, I already have all the IS lights mastered and still have no incentive to use them. I get more C-Bills/XP while grinding a newly bought Atlas than playing a light mech I'm proficient in.

[Devil Fox]

N0MAD, on 03 July 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

How were you forced to play meta?

Simple... to be effective, to be good, and to actually win you had to step up and learn to play the meta, and how to counter it... it's only now with Clan mechs that the speed and firepower is there for quick brawling flanks where their not sacrificing firepower for speed/survivability. Unlike IS brawlers, which I've been trying to play but the Clans do much more efficiently.

[Kmieciu]

Apostal Sinclair, on 03 July 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Simple... to be effective, to be good, and to actually win you had to step up and learn to play the meta, and how to counter it... it's only now with Clan mechs that the speed and firepower is there for quick brawling flanks where their not sacrificing firepower for speed/survivability. Unlike IS brawlers, which I've been trying to play but the Clans do much more efficiently.

I found out recently that Thunderbolts and Shadowhawks are truly effective at brawling. If the game ends up in a one big push you'll earn lots of savior kills and you can easily get more that 200K C-Bills without premium. But if it turns into a trench warfare, you earn squat and are a liability to your team.

[YueFei]

Apostal Sinclair, on 03 July 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Simple... to be effective, to be good, and to actually win you had to step up and learn to play the meta, and how to counter it... it's only now with Clan mechs that the speed and firepower is there for quick brawling flanks where their not sacrificing firepower for speed/survivability. Unlike IS brawlers, which I've been trying to play but the Clans do much more efficiently.

In large part this is due to the fact that Clan mechs can be fast *and* survivable with XL engines, and so can close the gap without dying too easily. And another big reason is because Clan SRMs are much more efficient than IS SRMs.

IS SRMs, for the same tonnage as IS AC5's, have only a 23% TTK advantage. That's one of the main problems with SRMs, that despite the short effective range, you really didn't kill stuff that much faster than with AC5's. So, we keep seeing PPCs + AC5's.

Clan SRMs, because they are half the mass of IS SRMs, would have a ~146% faster TTK advantage over the IS AC5. So when you *do* close in, you kill stuff much faster.

Clan UAC5's are a different beast altogether, since they are DoT anyways.

Edited by YueFei, 03 July 2014 - 11:57 PM.

[Reno Blade]

First, I think the matching of equal group sizes (even with 3-1-4-4 kinda style) is an improvement and the equal group sizes help a lot to bring some kind of balance into the MM.

Now the ELO matching looks a bit different.
It might be just that if you drop with 10, you get "anything and anyone" after a very short time.

I don't think there needs to be kind of bonus for light/med, but just different game modes and more reason to play the mode as it's intended.
In Skirmish the most time it's cap one or two points, then search the enemy.
Usually no role warfare or real "tactic", just blob and rush.

If light/med pilots had to do more than just skirmish and brawl like the heavies, then there would be a reason/incentive to play them more often.

Repair and rearm COULD be a factor, but not the only one.

I think if there are roles and different kind of attack-phases in planetary conquest, the problem will be lessened a lot.

I wrote a post about CW, planetary conquest and the effect to your faction including R&R here:
http://mwomercs.com/...and-cw-effects/

[meteorol]

Saw 0% a few days ago.

Will never change, no matter how big they make the map, how much benefits light mech get, if they ever introduce roll warfare. It simply doesn't matter.
Guys love to go big. They love to bring a cr*pload of weapons, dishing out huge damage numbers. The only way to bring light numbers up is to massively overpower them. Because the majority of guys just enjoys going big and shooting stuff. "Scouting" is nothing 30% of the players would do even if it would be needed (which isn't the case due to tiny maps).

We didn't have 8 ravens per team even when the hitboxes were totally broken. Guys came to forum, complained about broken hitboxes all day long but still kept on using their heavies and assaults instead of the "invulnerable" raven.

The only way to get a number of light mechs to the field which is comparable to other weight classes without massively overpowering them is to flat out force players to use them.

Ever tried to use a public queue in any MMO?
Or watched the public chat? LF 2M HEALER AND TANK WISP ME. The queues are always flooded with damage dealers while healers and tanks are missing. People love to deal damage. They want to be "the guy". Light mechs will never be as popular as other weight classes, no matter how much they are needed. Guys would rather lose 50 games in a row in their assault mech than switching to a light. Just like they rather wait 30 min in public queue with their mage or thief than rerolling a healer or tank.

Edited by meteorol, 04 July 2014 - 12:37 AM.

[TexAce]

The 4x3 rule should always have been a 3/4/3/2 rule and there should be way more rewards for stuff lights and meds can do better than heavies/assaults. Otherwise why play them?

I love my Kintaros and Hunchies but never liked lights.

On the other hand I think the game is too fast at the moment. Everything above 70 tons should get MASSIVE turn/speed/movement nerfs so 100 tons really feel like 100 tons

Edited by TexAss, 04 July 2014 - 12:39 AM.

[stjobe]

TexAss, on 04 July 2014 - 12:35 AM, said:

The 4x3 rule should always have been a 3/4/3/2 rule

Well, almost. The Inner Sphere distribution of mechs is roughly 30% lights, 40% mediums, 20% heavies, and 10% assaults, so it would be more 4-5-2-1 for a 12-man team if one wanted to stay true to the lore.

It's kind of funny (because it's sad) that the MWO numbers are reversed; 1-2-5-4 instead of 4-5-2-1.

[DemonRaziel]

meteorol, on 04 July 2014 - 12:34 AM, said:

Saw 0% a few days ago. Will never change, no matter how big they make the map, how much benefits light mech get, if they ever introduce roll warfare. It simply doesn't matter. Guys love to go big. They love to bring a cr*pload of weapons, dishing out huge damage numbers. The only way to bring light numbers up is to massively overpower them. Because the majority of guys just enjoys going big and shooting stuff. "Scouting" is nothing 30% of the players would do even if it would be needed (which isn't the case due to tiny maps). We didn't have 8 ravens per team even when the hitboxes were totally broken. Guys came to forum, complained about broken hitboxes all day long but still kept on using their heavies and assaults instead of the "invulnerable" raven. The only way to get a number of light mechs to the field which is comparable to other weight classes without massively overpowering them is to flat out force players to use them. Ever tried to use a public queue in any MMO? Or watched the public chat? LF 2M HEALER AND TANK WISP ME. The queues are always flooded with damage dealers while healers and tanks are missing. People love to deal damage. They want to be "the guy". Light mechs will never be as popular as other weight classes, no matter how much they are needed. Guys would rather lose 50 games in a row in their assault mech than switching to a light. Just like they rather wait 30 min in public queue with their mage or thief than rerolling a healer or tank.

Very true, but the problem is, that the healer/tank in your example are needed roles. Nowadays, a light 'Mech is nothing you actually need in most of your games, so even the few guys that still play them aren't sought after, but are instead perceived as a liability for their team most of the time.

Incentivizing playing Lights and Mediums, such as bigger maps and needs for scouts, might not motivate many players to actually switch to these lighter 'Mechs, but it will reward the pilots that do play them by gibing them a role on the battlefield.

[Gasoline]

Lights are the most unrewarding chassis in MWO.

Guess everyone encountered this.

The scout role: Go scouting (TAG, NARC or just hold locks) and you end up either dead, without income or getting yelled at for scoring low damage numbers or any combination of this.

The harrasser role: Lights are the most difficult chassis to score significant damage numbers in and you can easily get killed in them if you make a wrong move.

The capper role: You're the first one at the cap points (probably not in a clan light, but anyway). This makes you either dead (by getting steamrolled by one or two enemy lances) or without income.

So what's the point in piloting lights, when you can do the above in every other chassis (and often better)? Heavier Mediums are perfect light hunters. Heavies have the best speed/damage capability ratio and assaults are the easiest to score high damage numbers in and have the highest armor rating. Lights are just the fastest and that might not even be an advantage. Heck, my Shawk can easily outrun clan lights...

4x3 is just an artificial rule to ENFORCE players to pilot lights and that doesn't even work with those valves. Tonnage matching might have ENCOURAGED players to pilot lights at least in teams (more tonnage left to work with). This still doesn't encourage light play for solo drops tho. This is where role warfare needs to kick in. Objective based game play and things like that. Capturing in conquest is... pointless to say the least. You're better off killing stuff... always.

Gorgo7, on 03 July 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Well! I have the perfect solution to this light conundrum...everyone will hate it, especially those who have written everything ever discussed in the forums...and you know who you are!
BRING BACK repair and rearm.
Change nothing else.

You do know, that every light needs to sport Endo, FF, XL engines and things like that to keep being viable? Ever tried to repair and rearm a COM-2D with Endo, FF, XL 195 and 3 SSRM2 when R&R was still live? I have... With current C-Bill rewards you don't want to die by engine death... ever... So it's still worth a think who you might hit the most by bringing this back.

[SprechenSieSexy]

N0MAD, on 03 July 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

I dont think they want you out of the game.
Then again people like me would like to see those Buggy Lights actually get fixed so people dont exploit the poop out of them with their bad Hit reg, bad hit boxes, bad lag cause by bad networking and excessive speeds and a stupid radar system that doesnt let you see a mech shooting your ass because its behind you.
Besides its just terrible that you cant run into the middle of a fight and not get 3-4 kills right? because ya lights were meant to run into the middle of a dozen mechs and kill 3-4 mechs before exiting stage left and getting ready for the next act.

About the radar:
What boggles me about the whole battlemech thing is the lack of all-round vision, even to the sides. In a combat enviroment, they would be extremely easy to flank. Especially if they have "radar", but it only shows what it can already see.
Seems like a major design flaw. High profile, narrow forward-only vision.

[Alistair Winter]

TexAss, on 04 July 2014 - 12:35 AM, said:

The 4x3 rule should always have been a 3/4/3/2 rule and there should be way more rewards for stuff lights and meds can do better than heavies/assaults. Otherwise why play them?
I love my Kintaros and Hunchies but never liked lights.
On the other hand I think the game is too fast at the moment. Everything above 70 tons should get MASSIVE turn/speed/movement nerfs so 100 tons really feel like 100 tons

Yeah, a rock paper scissor system was one of the first thing I suggested when I started playing this game. Make assault mechs too slow to deal with light mechs, still able to deal with heavy mechs and slow medium mechs. So you get light < medium < heavy < assault < light.

You could also just make the landscape entirely flat, and just give each class various advantages and disadvantages, without making one inherently better than the other, or using any kind of rock, paper, scissor design. That removes a lot of interesting tactical aspects of the game, but is probably easier to balance.

[N0MAD]

Apostal Sinclair, on 03 July 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Simple... to be effective, to be good, and to actually win you had to step up and learn to play the meta.

No sorry.
First of you saying lights can only be effective a gunfighters or should be? how about scouting, Narc, Tag, UAV, hunting other lights? these are all things that can be very effectively done by a light to help the team.
Good is skill not the mech, remember old saying about bad workman blaming tools? besides many will tell you there are many good light pilots.
Winning, a properly played Light will indeed help win using the examples i gave.
Now if by winning you mean K/D ratio well ya, Light properly shouldnt have a big + kill ratio, and if youre expecting a 2-3/1 KD then you dont understand the role of the light and should play a mech that is intended to be a gun fighter.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

which is funny because without knockdown they are the most powerful

[TexAce]

Alistair Winter, on 04 July 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

Yeah, a rock paper scissor system was one of the first thing I suggested when I started playing this game. Make assault mechs too slow to deal with light mechs, still able to deal with heavy mechs and slow medium mechs. So you get light < medium < heavy < assault < light.

You could also just make the landscape entirely flat, and just give each class various advantages and disadvantages, without making one inherently better than the other, or using any kind of rock, paper, scissor design. That removes a lot of interesting tactical aspects of the game, but is probably easier to balance.

Exactly. Its really a problem when a mastered awesome/vic or even Atlas is agile enough to deal with everything. If they would make them much slower and reduce their amounts on the field, you would finally fear them again when it suddenly moves around the corner.

Edited by TexAss, 04 July 2014 - 01:05 AM.

[stjobe]

Battlecruiser, on 04 July 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

which is funny because without knockdown they are the most powerful

Yeah, those lights TOTALLY dominate the game, it's not even fun any more. There's just nothing my mediums, heavies, or assaults can do when one of those bad boys show up; it's just gg close and that's all she wrote.

Just look at the forums! It's chock-full of complaint threads about the 2-years-and-counting-now Light meta; how Lights rule the game at top tier, and how PGI really should do something, anything, to curb them.

:/