467 replies to this topic

[Kitane]

How many light mechs per match you see? In every match I can remember in last few days I had at least two light mechs on my team. Very often three, sometimes four. Was there a match with a single light mech? Possibly, but I don't remember it.

The average team composition in my matches is usually somewhere between 3/3/3/3 and 2/2/4/4.

[Ursh]

Alistair Winter, on 04 July 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that the balance between assault and light mechs is fine, because assault mechs will overheat, while light mechs can run away? Or are you saying that the way to make the game balanced is to adjust the heat values?

I'm saying that a 150kph Jenner with 6 medium lasers and the 10dhs from their engine can run away to cool down, while a battlemaster with 20dhs will overheat pretty fast while continuously firing that same loadout, while having little in the way of escapability. One of the big advantages that lights have is the ability to run away and dump heat, which has been curiously unmentioned so far in a thread where people are ready to put lights up on the cross and annoint them as martyrs.

[Artgathan]

Ursh, on 04 July 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:

I disagree. Assaults are the boogeyman because they can pack big guns. Unfortunately, due to DHS 1.4, they're extremely limited in their ability to use them. A light mech can go crazy with alphas and then run away to cool down. An assault really can't do that unless they're poptarting.

With a mastered mech, as long as you have 18 or fewer DHS they're actually dissipating more than TT DHS. The bonus from the 2.0 DHS in the engine "covers up" the inefficiency of the first 8 added.

Dakshinamurthy, on 04 July 2014 - 04:12 AM, said:

I already explained it earlier in the thread. Because of 3/3/3/3 lights and mediums get sucked into matches quicker, so the %'s seem skewed. Just as many people are playing lights/mediums but since they have no wait time and heavies/assaults do, the %'s of heavies/assaults slowly tick up. That's my hypothesis anyways.

If there were equal numbers of lights/mediums and heavies/assaults no one would be waiting. If the queue gets backed up for any particular class it means more people are playing those mechs than any other.

[Alistair Winter]

Ursh, on 04 July 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

I'm saying that a 150kph Jenner with 6 medium lasers and the 10dhs from their engine can run away to cool down, while a battlemaster with 20dhs will overheat pretty fast while continuously firing that same loadout, while having little in the way of escapability. One of the big advantages that lights have is the ability to run away and dump heat, which has been curiously unmentioned so far in a thread where people are ready to put lights up on the cross and annoint them as martyrs.

Ah, I see what you're saying then. It makes sense, but it's not really relevant, because the advantages of running away and dumping heat isn't as big as you seem to think. At the risk of repeating myself, one or two alpha strikes from the current high alpha pinpoint heavy / assault mechs with PPCs and ballistic weapons will either destroy a light mech or cause so much damage that the high DPS advantage of medium lasers is less valuable. When your torso armor is stripped away, the tactic of dancing around assault mech is instantly far less attractive.

Simply put, as skill levels increase, the ability to hit light mechs becomes more significant than the ability to dodge projectiles moving at over a kilometer per second.

It doesn't really matter how much you use cover, jump jets, hills and buildings to evade fire. Your medium lasers do not deliver instant damage, nor are they able to cripple your target in a few salvos. But assault mechs with PPCs and ballistic weapons do deliver instant damage, and they can cripple you in a few salvos.

Other factors are just less relevant. And the proof is in the pudding. We don't need to talk about what ifs. We can just look at the significant statistics.

[Devlin Pierce]

I am loving my Kit Fox, but I guess it isn't truly a light, feels more like a medium sometimes.

[Chemie]

it is reverse role warefare...PGI implements falling leg damage which pushes even more people away from lights. Why run lights when they have mechanics that kill lights but not heavy/assaults?

Edited by Chemie, 04 July 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[MonkeyCheese]

BeeblesTV, on 04 July 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

I am loving my Kit Fox, but I guess it isn't truly a light, feels more like a medium sometimes.

That cant be more correct, going purely by speed and playstyle it is a medium.... just with the size and armor of a 30 tonner

[Chemie]

stjobe, on 03 July 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

That's the real problem PGI should try to solve; how to incentivize light and medium usage.

Forcing 3-3-3-3 was never going to work, and the new release valves is in effect PGI acknowledging that and giving up on the idea.

They added fall damage to incentivize lights...oh wait... disincentivize

[maniacos]

Ursh, on 04 July 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

I'm saying that a 150kph Jenner with 6 medium lasers and the 10dhs from their engine can run away to cool down, while a battlemaster with 20dhs will overheat pretty fast while continuously firing that same loadout, while having little in the way of escapability. One of the big advantages that lights have is the ability to run away and dump heat, which has been curiously unmentioned so far in a thread where people are ready to put lights up on the cross and annoint them as martyrs.

This "advantage" in fact is more compensation for the lack of armor they have. A light that shuts down is soon legged by a heavy or even killed. A BM that shuts down does not even lose its armor agains a light, when he was full health before.
Again, if heavies are so bad balanced and lights so advantage, why are there 6-15% lights and 50-70% heavy+?

[Alistair Winter]

Chemie, on 04 July 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

They added fall damage to incentivize lights...oh wait... disincentivize

Well, they could have given heavy and assault mechs significantly more fall damage than light mechs, but that would have upset the heavy mech pilots who paid top dollar to have the best mechs in the game. It would also have forced heavy and assault mechs to choose safer routes, while allowing light mechs the freedom to move almost anywhere, even using their agility to escape from medium mech with streaks.

That, however, would be too much like "role warfare". And we've abandoned that idea long ago.

[maniacos]

Alistair Winter, on 04 July 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

Ah, I see what you're saying then. It makes sense, but it's not really relevant, because the advantages of running away and dumping heat isn't as big as you seem to think.

And that running away needs skills still. If you run wrong (straight ahead exposing your back to the heavy for instance) or into the arms of other enemies or now with leg damage down a slope, this "advantage" actually damages the light or even kill it.

[DemonRaziel]

VeryVizzy, on 04 July 2014 - 04:00 AM, said:

Anyone done any better than this:

6% Light, 4% Medium, 69% Heavy & 20% Assault

Taken today at 1:00(ish)pm GMT

More Meds than you have and more % overall L+M, but the Lights here are the true Meta Overlords

[MonkeyCheese]

Alistair Winter, on 04 July 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

Well, they could have given heavy and assault mechs significantly more fall damage than light mechs, but that would have upset the heavy mech pilots who paid top dollar to have the best mechs in the game. It would also have forced heavy and assault mechs to choose safer routes, while allowing light mechs the freedom to move almost anywhere, even using their agility to escape from medium mech with streaks.

That, however, would be too much like "role warfare". And we've abandoned that idea long ago.

Exactly. Sadly it is go fatty or go home at the moment. The only mechanic that seemed to go over smoothly with the light mechs was the hill climb ranking system because light mechs were rightfully placed in the lowest section of the scale unlike the current falling damage system.

[NRP]

I think the reasons are three-fold:

1. Lights don't really have a meaningful role in the game right now. The reward system is heavily skewed toward damage and kills.

2. All worthwhile IS lights have been out for a while and thus everyone probably has already mastered them.

3. Clan lights really suck, so everyone is playing Clan mediums, heavies, and assaults.

Edited by NRP, 04 July 2014 - 05:50 AM.

[R Razor]

I'd be curious to see a breakdown of each chassis in each class.........my money is on the Heavy percentage being upped significantly by all of the kiddies leveling their Timberwolves.

[maniacos]

R Razor, on 04 July 2014 - 05:51 AM, said:

I'd be curious to see a breakdown of each chassis in each class.........my money is on the Heavy percentage being upped significantly by all of the kiddies leveling their Timberwolves.

Light numbers been low before Clan release already. When they tried to release 4x3 last time and stopped it as it caused waitingtimes up to 30 minutes, we had light numbers of 10-20% and most of the time that window suggested using lights or mediums for shorter waiting times.
So it's not only the Timbers.

Edited by Jherek C, 04 July 2014 - 06:05 AM.

[Khobai]

Game needs to give a cbill adjustment based on usage %.

So like 25%-actual usage = cbill adjustment %

So if light mechs are used 6% of the time then 25%-6% = +19% cbill adjustment

If heavy mechs are used 33% of the time then 25%-33% = -8% cbill adjustment

So youd get 27% more cbills for using a light instead of a heavy, at least till it evened out.

Edited by Khobai, 04 July 2014 - 06:48 AM.

[R Razor]

Jherek C, on 04 July 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Light numbers been low before Clan release already. When they tried to release 4x3 last time and stopped it as it caused waitingtimes up to 30 minutes, we had light numbers of 10-20% and most of the time that window suggested using lights or mediums for shorter waiting times.
So it's not only the Timbers.

No but pre-clan it was the Assault class that was typically the highest percentage fielded and now it seems like it's leaning more towards heavy. Giving players a heavy that runs 90kph and packs a good meta punch tends to make me think that's probably where the press is right now. Call me jaded but the vast majority of this player base is all about 1 shot kill instant gratification ala COD.

[DaZur]

You guys crack me up...

There is no magic elixir that will elevate the viability of lights and mediums save mission design that handicaps the team that does not bring them to the battlefield.

Mind you... I'm not talking about forcing the usage of these classes, I'm talking about real, true, honest mission design that has goals, secondary goals, tertiary goals, if / go-to logic tree triggers and time constraint parameters....

You know, what MW:O is supposed to be?

I can't repeat it enough... We have "death-match" and "death-match with distractions" as our linear / myopic mission goal...

There is no logical reason to bring mediums and lights to the battlefield so long as this is the singular goal of our game.

Edited by DaZur, 04 July 2014 - 07:09 AM.

[Devlin Pierce]

Khobai, on 04 July 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

Game needs to give a cbill adjustment based on usage %.

So like 25%-actual usage = cbill adjustment %

So if light mechs are used 6% of the time then 25%-6% = +19% cbill adjustment

If heavy mechs are used 33% of the time then 25%-33% = -8% cbill adjustment

So youd get 27% more cbills for using a light instead of a heavy, at least till it evened out.

I like this idea. Maybe throw in a bit of an XP bonus to. (Mech and GXP)

Edited by BeeblesTV, 04 July 2014 - 07:11 AM.