109 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

I will add other results, including video, and such to this, in spoilers as I collect it, but this is just my initial test, compelled by all the QQ about fall damage (which I got to admit I never even noticed myself at all last night, on any mech......)

Anyhow....

I just took my Locust out in the testing Grounds, Crimson Strait. Mind you a single run is hardly conclusive, but play along with me here.

when I ran along and jumpe doff the 5 meter tall platforms in D5, I took ZERO leg damage, traveling over 150 kph, and ran off them multiple times. Even ran off 3 in a row, max speed. Zero leg damage.

In C4, there is an approximately 10 meter shelf running along the hillside, from the saddle along the upper deck. Dropping off that, did 1% damage to my mech.

Dropping off the parking garage deck, be it at 10 kph I took 2% damage. Running off at 150 kph , I hit 57 ft/s (I should have checked that more frequently, will when the video processes) and took 3% damage.

Minor, overall, though mind you, being confined to the legs, it adds up.

Now, for the money trick.

I run up the side of the E4 hill, as far as I can, and fling myself off into space, aiming for the saddle. Well over 50 meters from the Ground. I take 10% damage, hitting over 70 ft/s fall velocity. And still, after all that, while both legs are internal and have FINALLY suffered critical damage, still have full mobility.


Yes, I took a 20 ton tank on pencil legs, with no JJs, and or Parachutes, and FLUNG it over 50 meters/150+ ft to the ground, and walked away. Technically still ran away.


You will have to forgive me if I think people doth protest too much, but in my admittedly limited testing, I did not damage my legs from running drops, unless, they were over a second, or 10 meters, give or take, (bouncing fall down the side of a hill did damage too, but TBH, there were many points I was airborne over a second doing so.)

Dropping 10 meters did negligible damage, and 20+ meters only a little more. (on the lightest armored mech in the game). Enough to remind me that I can take shortcuts, but they will hurt.

at 50 meters, I take noticeable damage, but still only took critical due to have taken 9% health damage previously to my legs from previous jumps.

In other words, I do something suicidally STUPID, and not only live to tell the tail, but am still running at 150 kph to boot (albeit sans any armor left on my legs).

Sorry, but at least so far, seems to be a lot of compñaing about essentially being given a gentle reminder about physics, and map awareness. You will have to forgive me if I think someone throwing their Locust off of the top of Candy Mountain in Alpine should ned in a rolling fireball of scattered limbs.

*I think I want a Crash Test Dummy paintjob for the little guys, as he is now my testbed for fall damage.

*I just ran off the top of the tallest peaks in Alpine, over 100 meters, and recorded descents speeds of 119 ft/s and 127 ft/s.
The first did 6% damage and reduced my LCT to orange armor. The second reduced me another 6% leaving my legs at Cherry red armor, and my total health at 89% (though a secondary bounce on the second just brought me to intervals and 86% health).

2 Jumps, over 100 meters each, uncontrolled, and I still had leg armor, on the most lightly armored mech in the game.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 03 July 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[CG Chicken Kn]

I ran some 1 v 1's in my JJ Jenner earlier, seemed ok, I am used to feathering down anyway to maintain momentum.

I think the cases people are talking about are edge cases in certain mechs. We will probably need to let PGI gather some data for a few weeks to get a better handle on this.

Edited by CG Chicken Kn, 03 July 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[Livewyr]

My complaint is that it reaches 30FPS too quickly. (Or the FPS should be higher at any rate) I dropped off a step in HPG that I could not even see (uniformity.. next to one of the ramps) and it finished off my last leg. I had not even dropped the full height of my SCR. I was already one-legged, so you know I was not going over 40kph.

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 03 July 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

My complaint is that it reaches 30FPS too quickly. (Or the FPS should be higher at any rate) I dropped off a step in HPG that I could not even see (uniformity.. next to one of the ramps) and it finished off my last leg. I had not even dropped the full height of my SCR. I was already one-legged, so you know I was not going over 40kph.

Most of those drops are over 10 meters. If so, working as intended. (If not, you need to send in a support ticket, because I do not doubt, being PGI that this new mechanic is bug ridden as all get out).

But if it was 10 meters or more, and your leg was already damaged to internals, it sort of should do severe damage, even to the point of death. (Heck, if they were going for realism, the higher percentage of structure damage, the higher damage you would take, as you would not be able to absorb as much)

Unless I am misunderstanding you.

[CG Chicken Kn]

Also putting shock absorbers in every Adder I own lol.

Which does seem to help.

[Bishop Steiner]

I just ran off the top of the tallest peaks in Alpine, over 100 meters, and recorded descents speeds of 119 ft/s and 127 ft/s.
The first did 6% damage and reduced my LCT to orange armor. The second reduced me another 6% leaving my legs at Cherry red armor, and my total health at 89% (though a secondary bounce on the second just brought me to intervals and 86% health).

2 Jumps, over 100 meters each, uncontrolled, and I still had leg armor, on the most lightly armored mech in the game.

[Wintersdark]

Purely anecdotal:

Piloting my very bouncy Nova's (which I find enormously fun, BTW), over all the maps, my findings where as follows:

1) HPG is a dangerous map - I often underestimated how far you fall off various terrain features, and as they are all shear edges you always get a full fall, unlike a cliff face. This map I think will result in people most commonly complaining about fall damage, though I'd argue the solution is to fall less.
2) In normal play, when paying attention, I'm able to easily completely negate fall damage simply by conserving some jump fuel.
3) Poptarting like a metab***h, I had a tendency to push a little harder to get the shots I wanted, which resulted in significant but not severe leg damage. I found, with a poptarty build, I definitely had to dial back on the popping after a while. With experience, however, it's going to result in my effectively having 1 less jump jet due to saved fuel.
4) In normal movement, I took very, very little actual damage.

So, in summary, for a jump equipped mech, I found the changes very enjoyable. I had to consider how I wanted to approach problems; and as matches progressed and particularly after having leg armor stripped, I became much more cautious about how, when, and why I jump/fall.

My concerns from when this was first announced still stand, however:

This change makes jump equipped mechs more fun, and while it does slightly reduce your poptarting ability the change is fairly minor (it's not hard to save fuel). If that means poptarts have to equip one or two more jets, they'll do so and it won't impact their play at all.

The problem remains: Currently Jump Jets are extremely valuable given our map design and movement restrictions. This change makes JJ's more fun, but for mechs without JJ's it further restricts their mobility. This is "realistic", sure - I'm not concerned on a "how things should be" standpoint - but it does lead to JJ's being a required component for a mech, and thus making JJ equipped mechs largely mandatory.

Non-jumping mechs don't gain any advantage for their crippling lack of mobility except a couple tons/slots at best. This means those ground locked mechs aren't coming to the field with particularly more firepower or armor.

It is my feeling, then, that what needs to happen now is the movement restrictions absolutely need to be adjusted or even outright removed. Mechs should be able to climb, that's why they have legs instead of wheels. This makes little to no difference to jump mechs but substantially increases non-jumping mech's movement options, which in turn reduces the value gap for JJ's.

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

I just ran off the top of the tallest peaks in Alpine, over 100 meters, and recorded descents speeds of 119 ft/s and 127 ft/s.
The first did 6% damage and reduced my LCT to orange armor. The second reduced me another 6% leaving my legs at Cherry red armor, and my total health at 89% (though a secondary bounce on the second just brought me to intervals and 86% health).

2 Jumps, over 100 meters each, uncontrolled, and I still had leg armor, on the most lightly armored mech in the game.

Yup. There's a great deal of over-exaggeration going on. I'm definitely in the camp of "video or it didn't happen" for a lot of claims. Not that I don't think there are bugs (there are always bugs!) but in normal practice, it actually works pretty well.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 03 July 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

Purely anecdotal:

Piloting my very bouncy Nova's (which I find enormously fun, BTW), over all the maps, my findings where as follows:

1) HPG is a dangerous map - I often underestimated how far you fall off various terrain features, and as they are all shear edges you always get a full fall, unlike a cliff face. This map I think will result in people most commonly complaining about fall damage, though I'd argue the solution is to fall less.
2) In normal play, when paying attention, I'm able to easily completely negate fall damage simply by conserving some jump fuel.
3) Poptarting like a metab***h, I had a tendency to push a little harder to get the shots I wanted, which resulted in significant but not severe leg damage. I found, with a poptarty build, I definitely had to dial back on the popping after a while. With experience, however, it's going to result in my effectively having 1 less jump jet due to saved fuel.
4) In normal movement, I took very, very little actual damage.

So, in summary, for a jump equipped mech, I found the changes very enjoyable. I had to consider how I wanted to approach problems; and as matches progressed and particularly after having leg armor stripped, I became much more cautious about how, when, and why I jump/fall.

My concerns from when this was first announced still stand, however:

This change makes jump equipped mechs more fun, and while it does slightly reduce your poptarting ability the change is fairly minor (it's not hard to save fuel). If that means poptarts have to equip one or two more jets, they'll do so and it won't impact their play at all.

The problem remains: Currently Jump Jets are extremely valuable given our map design and movement restrictions. This change makes JJ's more fun, but for mechs without JJ's it further restricts their mobility. This is "realistic", sure - I'm not concerned on a "how things should be" standpoint - but it does lead to JJ's being a required component for a mech, and thus making JJ equipped mechs largely mandatory.

Non-jumping mechs don't gain any advantage for their crippling lack of mobility except a couple tons/slots at best. This means those ground locked mechs aren't coming to the field with particularly more firepower or armor.

It is my feeling, then, that what needs to happen now is the movement restrictions absolutely need to be adjusted or even outright removed. Mechs should be able to climb, that's why they have legs instead of wheels. This makes little to no difference to jump mechs but substantially increases non-jumping mech's movement options, which in turn reduces the value gap for JJ's.



Yup. There's a great deal of over-exaggeration going on. I'm definitely in the camp of "video or it didn't happen" for a lot of claims. Not that I don't think there are bugs (there are always bugs!) but in normal practice, it actually works pretty well.

and whenever the thing uploads, I will indeed have video...but it is SLOW

[MonkeyCheese]

To quote myself

MonkeyCheese, on 03 July 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

Just read the last few pages and the main thing that most people are not understanding is that this is causing problems for the 20ton locust and the 25ton commando that CAN'T ******* cushion their falls.

Dropping off cliffs yeah sure take my leg armor off but running down the tiny rocky slope right after spawning at the upper base in forest colony and taking damage is a joke.

The light Mech population is already so small on the drop screen and locusts and commandos must be such a small % and any mistakes made in these mechs means instant death anyway and sure I agree that giant falls should too.

But why must this already difficult to play playstyle be nerfed into the ground while the obviously more vocally complained about and more popular poptarting playstyle which is clearly causing more damage to the game and its image outside of our community still able to run rampant? All they have to do is leave some fuel left to land safely where as the light mechs without jumpjets just get ****** over completely by taking constant damage from steps, small hills and ramps barely taller than the mechs themselves??

Also

MonkeyCheese, on 03 July 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

Was just in the testing grounds and I just got ever so slightly airborne from this point where I am shooting in the screenshot


and from a slightly different view


Im sorry but this is not a cliff at all and is barely a hill compared to the ones behind the camera with the trees on them.

that was 145.5kph

And a video here


sure it is tiny damage but this is locusts and commandos I am talking about here and that DEFINITELY aint any kind of cliff or even a minor drop.

The main problem is reaching the battle in a commando or locust with orange leg armor from just moving along is going to escalate the shoot the legs first thing.

This has nothing to do with the giant mountains or dropping of the upper dock on crimson, those types of high falls can stay, it is the low f/s number for the under 30ton inner sphere lights without jumpjets to fusion their falls that is the problem

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 03 July 2014 - 02:27 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

those are the same ones I have been unable to replicate so far on falls under 10 meters or so.

[MonkeyCheese]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

those are the same ones I have been unable to replicate so far on falls under 10 meters or so.

Well the video is there of a locust, and I managed to do it going 145.5kph in my spider without touching the jumpjets. Keep the massive drop damage but it is the small things that are the problem, getting airborne for barely a second and registering damage while poptarts can fly and land safely is just wrong.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 03 July 2014 - 02:34 PM.

[Bobzilla]

You have to be in the air for one second, cut your throttle and let momentum carry you over any embankment, then accelerate. No damage. Going full out all the time wrecks legs.

[MonkeyCheese]

Bobzilla, on 03 July 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

You have to be in the air for one second, cut your throttle and let momentum carry you over any embankment, then accelerate. No damage. Going full out all the time wrecks legs.

Soo things like the human body doing longjump is a big nono?

[Deathlike]

I'm going to suggest "live play" for this.

The reason for that is mostly due to network latency (kinda like the woes of hitreg), so what you are seeing is not what the server sees... and "the server is always right" is a more meaningful factor.

Also, some factoring has to include that some maps are worse than others.

I'm not saying you're wrong Bishop, but I'd say that Lights use JJs far more often whenever that it is available... and it's just a personal guess that they use JJs probably twice as often as even the most annoying of poptarts.

Don't just try just a Locust though... I'm hoping that "the legs" on different mechs are not a strange difference maker (kinda like certain cockpits vs arties).

[Bishop Steiner]

MonkeyCheese, on 03 July 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

Soo things like the human body doing longjump is a big nono?

regularly, yes. And you note they tend to do those mups into sifter media, standing broad/long jump into sand pits, high jumps onto airbags, etc.

And ACL/MCL injuries are pretty common, actually. Just how do you think an acl injury to a mech would be represented.......?

[Kiiyor]

My issue is that the fall damage has some of the most noticeable effect on the one type of mech that really lives and dies by it's legs.

On JJ mechs, i'm actually enjoying the extra challenge of feathering my jets. On non JJ'ed mechs though, it's... challenging. I tried brawling on alpine, screwed up once on one of the hills, and at the end of my mishap I was embarrassingly pants-less with a whole mess of people pointing and laughing. And killing. Fine, my mistake, my doom...

... but mistakes in lights are already punished pretty severely. More than the leg damage though, I hate the thought of spying a foolish LRM boat perched alone on a hill, and thinking to myself "Well, I ain't goin up there. Them bumps look awful big".

[Bishop Steiner]

MonkeyCheese, on 03 July 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

To quote myself


Also
that was 145.5kph

And a video here


sure it is tiny damage but this is locusts and commandos I am talking about here and that DEFINITELY aint any kind of cliff or even a minor drop.

The main problem is reaching the battle in a commando or locust with orange leg armor from just moving along is going to escalate the shoot the legs first thing.

This has nothing to do with the giant mountains or dropping of the upper dock on crimson, those types of high falls can stay, it is the low f/s number for the under 30ton inner sphere lights without jumpjets to fusion their falls that is the problem

Flawed basis.

Jump Snipers have Jumpjets, which cushion their fall. If Jumpsnipers dont use those JJs, guess what, they take identical damage to non jumpers. Those jumpjets also use tonnage and crits. Whether the tradeoff is fair, is an open debate. (and, in theory, the changes SHOULD actually force jumpers to invest MORE tonnage into JJs, and modules into lleg damage modules, which should take away tonnage from weapons and modules from thing sliek Arty strike)

Mechs NOT designed around jumpjets, also would generally not be engineered to absorb impacts like ones intentionally designed to jump would. (Kinda like how offroad vehicles tend to have more durable suspensions than race cars)So if anything, it is unfair that a jump capable mech takes the SAME damage as a non jump capable one, when their legs would be better reinforced for the impacts, and thus should take less damage, even with JJ assists.

Perhaps I should complain about that? (Hyperbole off)

............Or perhaps people should admit they have gotten lazy and used to getting away with murder on maneuvers in the past, and now we might need to pay more attention to where we are going, and where our viable exits are? I so far have not hd a big deal even in non jumpers, but hey, if I did fall, oops, my bad?

I'm not saying they don't need to monitor and potentially tweak things, I am saying the shear amount of QQ over this seems far out of proportion with the actual problem.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 03 July 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

MonkeyCheese, on 03 July 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

sure it is tiny damage but this is locusts and commandos I am talking about here and that DEFINITELY aint any kind of cliff or even a minor drop.

I would just like to know how is that any kind of "fall" that aint falling off the ring of death in terra therma... that height is barely the height of a spider...

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 03 July 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

I'm going to suggest "live play" for this.

The reason for that is mostly due to network latency (kinda like the woes of hitreg), so what you are seeing is not what the server sees... and "the server is always right" is a more meaningful factor.

Also, some factoring has to include that some maps are worse than others.

I'm not saying you're wrong Bishop, but I'd say that Lights use JJs far more often whenever that it is available... and it's just a personal guess that they use JJs probably twice as often as even the most annoying of poptarts.

Don't just try just a Locust though... I'm hoping that "the legs" on different mechs are not a strange difference maker (kinda like certain cockpits vs arties).

I'm currently avoiding JJs for one simple reason: The solution to fall damage with jump mechs is to actually use your JJs to cushion your fall. If people can't do that, don't want to devote the tonnage to jump AND land, etc, I have no sympathy for their "plight", bro. (That indeed would be filed under "L2P2, in that instance)

Heck.. Highlander leaps off Alpine's Candy Mountain, burn their fuel and drops 90+ meters to the glacial ice below, he SHOULD go splat, IMO.......

I do indeed agree a lot more testing is needed, though. Locust is just the first test mule, as it should be the most fragile.

MonkeyCheese, on 03 July 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I would just like to know how is that any kind of "fall" that aint falling off the ring of death in terra therma... that height is barely the height of a spider...

you mean just barely 10 meters?

As I said, I repeatedly have thrown myself off those 5 meter tall platforms in Crimson, zero damage. Will get the Forest Colony sometime later tonight.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 03 July 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

............Or perhaps people should admit they have gotten lazy and used to getting away with murder on maneuvers in the past, and now we might need to pay more attention to where we are going, and where our viable exits are?

Bah I am 100% for things like knockdowns to bring back the skill in driving lights but tiny hills is a joke..

Or is this just more hate speech propaganda against the under 30ton mechs that might I add were already walking death traps when mistakes are made given the 70% queues of heavies and assaults in our population that boat high alphas all day long while the light mechs get small percentages in players??

It is quite clear where the majority of the playerbase sits, why do light mechs always get the sharp end of the stick?

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

you mean just barely 10 meters?

As I said, I repeatedly have thrown myself off those 5 meter tall platforms in Crimson, zero damage. Will get the Forest Colony sometime later tonight.

well keep up the testing then, but the small drop problem is already there.