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Near Invulnerability Through Jumping

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#21 Kristov Kerensky

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:08 PM

View PostPanzerbjorn, on 07 July 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:


Exploit (v): to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage ( from Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary http://www.merriam-w...tionary/exploit )

It's not unfair - the current game engine offers this advantage and thus since ANYONE can use it, is not unfair. Is it a game balance issue? Most certainly, because most 'Mechs can't fit jump jets. However, gameplay balance issues AND Hit Reg issues are up to PGI to acknowledge and fix. And since this has been a balance issue for so long now, and PGI claims nothing's wrong, it's not an exploit. Nor is boating 4 C-ERPPCs. Or 4 LRM15s with Artemis. Or any of the other endgame meta.


Actually, using a known issue with the game engine to cause it to BREAK and give you the advantage rather fits the whole exploit thing, especially since it's NOT availible to everyone due to it requiring JJs to make happen and not all Mechs can fit JJ.

You do something specifically to break how the game engine works, you are doing something you shouldn't be doing without reporting it to the devs and NOT continuing to use it for your own advantage.

#22 Ironwithin

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:08 PM

View PostPanzerbjorn, on 07 July 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:


Exploit (v): to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage ( from Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary http://www.merriam-w...tionary/exploit )

It's not unfair - the current game engine offers this advantage and thus since ANYONE can use it, is not unfair. Is it a game balance issue? Most certainly, because most 'Mechs can't fit jump jets. However, gameplay balance issues AND Hit Reg issues are up to PGI to acknowledge and fix. And since this has been a balance issue for so long now, and PGI claims nothing's wrong, it's not an exploit. Nor is boating 4 C-ERPPCs. Or 4 LRM15s with Artemis. Or any of the other endgame meta.


That is of course the definiton of the word exploit but it is not what exploit means in video games:
http://en.wikipedia....video_gaming%29

Also: I'm sure you know all that so you're just trolling, NVM.

Edited by Ironwithin, 07 July 2014 - 03:10 PM.


#23 Panzerbjorn

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:16 PM

View PostIronwithin, on 07 July 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:


That is of course the definiton of the word exploit but it is not what exploit means in video games:
http://en.wikipedia....video_gaming%29

Also: I'm sure you know all that so you're just trolling, NVM.


My point was, if the game has a problem, you report it to PGI to get it fixed - exploits can only happen because of the failure of the game company to correct them. The engine itself is to blame, so fix the engine so it can't happen anymore. Don't yell at the players who are merely making the tools before them work for them. Not all mechs can fit 4 LRM launchers or 4 ER PPCs either, so they are completely hindered in the endgame meta - but you don't see anyone complaining about it.

#24 Veranova

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:18 PM

View PostCathy, on 04 July 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Its called skill and judging the reload times of the other pilots knowing that four on one they see you as easy kill and get sloppy, so desperate to get the kill, they just shoot when cool downs finished, instead of waiting for your jump to end.

Its pretty fun when you get the jump right and the muggers t.k each other, classic comedy gold moment.

Some mechs have animations that switch almost instantly. Jenners and Victors are pretty good/bad for it.
By thrusting your jets periodically you make your model shift so much that it's hard to pinpoint locations.

This said there's an element of skill even to that, and you can also use the technique exactly as you describe it.

#25 Duke Nedo

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:59 AM

View PostPanzerbjorn, on 07 July 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:


My point was, if the game has a problem, you report it to PGI to get it fixed - exploits can only happen because of the failure of the game company to correct them. The engine itself is to blame, so fix the engine so it can't happen anymore. Don't yell at the players who are merely making the tools before them work for them. Not all mechs can fit 4 LRM launchers or 4 ER PPCs either, so they are completely hindered in the endgame meta - but you don't see anyone complaining about it.


If you deliberately and systematically use a known bug in the engine to your advantage until it can be fixed, that is an exploit.

#26 Asmosis

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:41 AM

View PostPanzerbjorn, on 07 July 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:



My point was, if the game has a problem, you report it to PGI to get it fixed - exploits can only happen because of the failure of the game company to correct them. The engine itself is to blame, so fix the engine so it can't happen anymore. Don't yell at the players who are merely making the tools before them work for them. Not all mechs can fit 4 LRM launchers or 4 ER PPCs either, so they are completely hindered in the endgame meta - but you don't see anyone complaining about it.


Something has to be available ingame for it to be exploitable, but by your definition this means its intended as its already ingame, hence by your definition, exploits in any form in any game are an impossibility since they fail your "logic".

Since the word "exploit" actually exists, it must apply to something, therefore your wrong.

@Topic

Is this a visual bug where your not hitting what you see on your screen (but the mech is still firmly on the ground) or is this a server thing where the mech really does jump a few meters at the tap of a button? e.g. if you ignore the fact its in the air and shoot at where it would be on the ground, do you hit or miss?

Edited by Asmosis, 08 July 2014 - 06:43 AM.


#27 Panzerbjorn

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:44 AM

View PostAsmosis, on 08 July 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Something has to be available ingame for it to be exploitable, but by your definition this means its intended as its already ingame, hence by your definition, exploits in any form in any game are an impossibility since they fail your "logic".


I beg to differ. If I am using exactly what the game developer gives me to play the game with, but I find a way to be better at playing the game within that realm, it's called skill. You may be taking advantage of a bug or temporary balance issue, but it's one that every other player in the game has equal access to. So how is that unfair? Exploitation specifically deals with unfair advantages.

An example of an exploit would be a 3rd party tool designed to hammer the game server with garbage data in such a way that the game slows down for everyone but myself so I can gain an advantage NOT available to regular players of the game. Another great example is AimBot, another 3rd party tool that allows me to consistently hit your mechs in the head by doing nothing more than firing my weapons. Exploits in online games generally take the form of hacking the netcode for the game and providing either falsified data to the server or intercepting data from the server and making hidden data available to a player that they should not have access to (or a combination of the two). Another prime example of an exploit is the "speed hack" that worked in World of Warcraft for the first couple years it was in release - a third party tool spammed the server with movement packets and the server code broke "gracefully" by translating it into accelerated movement for that player.

If banging on the JJ key makes you nearly impossible to hit, that's an issue for PGI to fix. Until it is fixed, players will continue to take advantage of it - just like they will take advantage of Clan LRM boats that cannot fire LRMs and hit under 180m because of an issue in the game.

As an aside, I tried this out last night in Lights, Mediums and Heavies across a few dozen matches and it didn't seem to do anything unusual in terms of hit reg - I was hit just as hard and easily as I normally am. So perhaps it's not an issue anyway since I'm not able to reproduce the results at all, let alone consistently.

#28 Ironwithin

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 12:09 PM

View PostPanzerbjorn, on 08 July 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:


I beg to differ. If I am using exactly what the game developer gives me to play the game with, but I find a way to be better at playing the game within that realm, it's called skill. You may be taking advantage of a bug or temporary balance issue, but it's one that every other player in the game has equal access to. So how is that unfair? Exploitation specifically deals with unfair advantages.

An example of an exploit would be a 3rd party tool designed to hammer the game server with garbage data in such a way that the game slows down for everyone but myself so I can gain an advantage NOT available to regular players of the game. Another great example is AimBot, another 3rd party tool that allows me to consistently hit your mechs in the head by doing nothing more than firing my weapons. Exploits in online games generally take the form of hacking the netcode for the game and providing either falsified data to the server or intercepting data from the server and making hidden data available to a player that they should not have access to (or a combination of the two). Another prime example of an exploit is the "speed hack" that worked in World of Warcraft for the first couple years it was in release - a third party tool spammed the server with movement packets and the server code broke "gracefully" by translating it into accelerated movement for that player.

If banging on the JJ key makes you nearly impossible to hit, that's an issue for PGI to fix. Until it is fixed, players will continue to take advantage of it - just like they will take advantage of Clan LRM boats that cannot fire LRMs and hit under 180m because of an issue in the game.

As an aside, I tried this out last night in Lights, Mediums and Heavies across a few dozen matches and it didn't seem to do anything unusual in terms of hit reg - I was hit just as hard and easily as I normally am. So perhaps it's not an issue anyway since I'm not able to reproduce the results at all, let alone consistently.


You are wrong. In every single aspect of your post.
An exploit in a video game is using bugs or system-flaws to enhance ones own abilities in a way that is not meant to be possible. (Again: http://en.wikipedia....video_gaming%29 just read it already...)

The things you list as "exploits" are actual cheats and as such, obviously, banned. Exploits sit firmly the in realm grey, making them not quite cheats but not intentional features either.
No amount of rules-lawyering can make spamming the JJ-button to take advantage of the glitchy hitreg NOT an exploit as anyone using it is perfectly aware of abusing a flawed game-mechanic. As long as there is no rule against it the so-inclined will keep using it.

Personally, I'd like for PGI/IGP to make an official statement about it being ok or not sooner rather than later, as it becomes more popular every day (thanks to threads like these and people talking about it/using it in matches).
Until such a ruling comes or the underlying problem (hitreg) is fixed there is really not much to do but complain about it to make PGI aware of the problem.

#29 Grendel408

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 12:14 PM

Everyone is talking about exploiting the game... you know what exploits should be removed? Macros... and this <redacted> thing: http://mwomercs.com/...d-320-22nd-may/ because that alone is an exploitation of the game. Did the Devs plan for players to take advantage of the game using Macros because they're simply too damn lazy to play it how it's intended? Probably not... but people still use this third-party program because it gives them an advantage for players... running scripts/macros for a game takes away the skill and level-playing field of other players not willing to exploit the Developer's designed game.

#30 5th Fedcom Rat

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:28 PM

This issue is just one more reason why poptart players have become so loathed in this community. And it has nothing to do with their skill.


View PostevilC, on 07 July 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

The only reason I added that feature was to save people from RSI when trying to climb a hill with JJs.


Why name it JJ "spam" then?

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 08 July 2014 - 02:28 PM.


#31 Deucebackpack

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:28 PM

View Post5th Fedcom Rat, on 08 July 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:


evilC said:

"The only reason I added that feature was to save people from RSI when trying to climb a hill with JJs."


Why name it JJ "spam" then?

.


Look at this video:


It is for another exploit that allows you to climb a hill.

Edited by Deucebackpack, 09 July 2014 - 12:23 PM.


#32 WarZ

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:39 PM

View PostPanzerbjorn, on 07 July 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:


Why? Working as intended - Hit Reg is a known issue and needs to be addressed, the JJ 'exploit' is really just making you harder to hit due to existing issues in Hit Reg that PGI knows about and has chosen not to correct. Therefore, working as intended. If you're not in a JJ mech, it's time to get meta, biyatch. If you want to win, play to the strengths and weaknesses of the current game engine. That's not exploiting, that's being a ***** in order to get a win or be an ******. Hate the playah, not the game!


Pure **** move. Pretty much typifies most of the meta too.

#33 Grendel408

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:43 PM

View PostDeucebackpack, on 08 July 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

Look at this video:

It is for another exploit that allows you to climb a hill.

Yup... that's all I have to see, right there. And this wouldn't matter if the player only had 1 JumpJet installed. And this can be mimicked by the ADHD FireControl third-party "hack" I mentioned above too... btw... anyone notice the date on the video?

Edited by Grendel408, 08 July 2014 - 03:52 PM.


#34 Valten

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:53 PM

View PostPanzerbjorn, on 07 July 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:


Why? Working as intended - Hit Reg is a known issue and needs to be addressed, the JJ 'exploit' is really just making you harder to hit due to existing issues in Hit Reg that PGI knows about and has chosen not to correct. Therefore, working as intended. If you're not in a JJ mech, it's time to get meta, biyatch. If you want to win, play to the strengths and weaknesses of the current game engine. That's not exploiting, that's being a ***** in order to get a win or be an ******. Hate the playah, not the game!


So last time I checked that was pretty much the definition of exploiting...

#35 Tesunie

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:07 PM

View PostPanzerbjorn, on 08 July 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:


I beg to differ. If I am using exactly what the game developer gives me to play the game with, but I find a way to be better at playing the game within that realm, it's called skill. You may be taking advantage of a bug or temporary balance issue, but it's one that every other player in the game has equal access to. So how is that unfair? Exploitation specifically deals with unfair advantages.


Here is an exploit example from Guildwars 2. They had an item in a shop that you could buy really cheap for one currency, and then sell it for a lot of gold. It was the only item in the game you could do so. They who bought the item once (because they wanted/needed said item) was not exploiting the issue. However, there were people who bought HUNDREDS of copies of said item and sold them to make MILLIONS of gold. Those people who did so ended up being banned for "exploiting".

By your strange definition of "Exploiting", none of those people should have had their accounts temporarily banned (it was for 3 days) and had all that gold removed from their accounts. Thus, I have to disagree with you and your definition. If this is a bug, and it's not intended to "make you invincible" when you flicker your JJs on and off, then those who use it purposefully are exploiting a known bug in the system. They are essentially cheating. (It's like taking the jump off the edge in Rainbow Road in Mario Kart 64 to cut out over half the track to win every time. That is an exploit and should not be used in an actual game. For fun with friends, okay. If it was a live game with strangers and you do it constantly to make sure you win... it is an exploit.)

#36 Deucebackpack

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 12:21 PM

I found the original archived Topic of the jump jet exploit here:
http://mwomercs.com/...kenexploitable/

And post #78 on page 4 has this by the PGI Staff:

Matthew Craig said:

Sorry for not posting sooner, we agree this is not intended behavior and it will most likely be modified there was internal discussion and it wasn't felt urgent enough for a hot fix but it will be addressed.


Obviously they did not get around to fixing it back then but maybe now with the changes to jump jets on July 15th this issue will be resolved too.

#37 LastPaladin

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:14 PM

View PostCathy, on 04 July 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Its called skill and judging the reload times of the other pilots knowing that four on one they see you as easy kill and get sloppy, so desperate to get the kill, they just shoot when cool downs finished, instead of waiting for your jump to end.


This isn't actually answering the OP's point at all though. If someone shoots a jumping mech, right in front of them, and that mech jumps just as the enemy fires, he should still get hit. He may spread the damage around a little, but he should not escape mostly unscathed, which still happens all too often. I can't blame people for abusing the mechanic, since it works well, but it is not "skill" keeping these mechs alive, it is bad hit reg.

#38 Enigmos

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 10:40 AM

I think it is a hitreg problem rather than jumpjet. Yesterday a spider came to a full stop not twenty meters distant on alpine, right under my crosshairs. I fired a round of C-LBX20 directly into his chest. He was untouched. The shot scattered behind him. He didn't move for about another second, apparently as surprised as I was.

#39 Panzerbjorn

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 10:46 AM

View PostGrendel408, on 08 July 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Everyone is talking about exploiting the game... you know what exploits should be removed? Macros... and this <redacted> thing: http://mwomercs.com/...d-320-22nd-may/ because that alone is an exploitation of the game. Did the Devs plan for players to take advantage of the game using Macros because they're simply too damn lazy to play it how it's intended? Probably not... but people still use this third-party program because it gives them an advantage for players... running scripts/macros for a game takes away the skill and level-playing field of other players not willing to exploit the Developer's designed game.


Buy a Razer or Logitech keyboard and you can program macros into your keyboard directly and not need this third party application at all. Macros are a part of the gaming world, people will always use them because they're widely available. It's up to the game company to resolve issues where macros gain an unfair advantage, if they see them as such. Since PGI is partnered with Razer, you're unlikely to see them undermine the sales of their partner company, though.

#40 evilC

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 10:19 PM

View PostPanzerbjorn, on 10 July 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:


Buy a Razer or Logitech keyboard and you can program macros into your keyboard directly and not need this third party application at all. Macros are a part of the gaming world, people will always use them because they're widely available. It's up to the game company to resolve issues where macros gain an unfair advantage, if they see them as such. Since PGI is partnered with Razer, you're unlikely to see them undermine the sales of their partner company, though.

Exactly.
Seriously? You think a macro that hits space 4 times a second is an "Exploit" and "OP"?
Doing it manually is easy, just annoying. I get sick of making my wrist ache trying to climb up the hills in alpine etc.

Plenty of people have reported me for Fire Control. Every time the devs give it the OK.
All I am doing is leveling the playing field - making it so that *everyone* has access to a reasonable system, not just those with expensive mice.

I play at a competitive level in leagues and such, and I can assure you that at that level, fire timing macros are nonexistent.
JJ spam is typically used, mainly manual rather than macro'd.
Arm Lock toggle is reasonably popular.
Macros to fix issues with binding zoom to mouse wheel are fairly common.

That is the extent of it - if you think those things make an unskillful player able to compete at the top levels, you are sorely mistaken: Top tier players are top tier through skill, not macros.

About the only thing that I think is controversial are gauss macros. It is entirely possible to have a macro that keeps gauss constantly charging (esp with two - you can alternate the charge windows to keep 1 always able to fire).
I am not sure I approve of such a thing. I have a proof-of-concept written but until such time as I think that it is giving an unfair advantage to a select few, I am loathe to use it or develop it further. Unfortunately it is not possible to see the charge status of gauss when spectating, so it is impossible to tell how many people are already doing this.





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