46 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 04 July 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Good.

Wish they'd just throw ghost heat out and go to a lower threshold. 30 too low? Try 40 or 50 and lock it there. No skill tree buff to raise it by 20% (I mean seriously?)

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 04 July 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

The Nerfinator will neuter the cat. Don't you worry!

[xXBagheeraXx]

Koniving, on 04 July 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Wish they'd just throw ghost heat out and go to a lower threshold. 30 too low? Try 40 or 50 and lock it there. No skill tree buff to raise it by 20% (I mean seriously?)

Half the capacity.

Buff sinks to 2.0.

Map temperature has 0 effect on your capacity, only dissapation. Capacity is determined by number and type of sinks.

Introduce more detrimental effects on overheating your mech such as damage to internals for keeping your reactor constantly redlined, resulting in more heat effecient builds rather than high alpha cram builds. This heat system wold have murdered 6x ppc stalkers before they even became a thing.

Edit: you could change that pilot buff to increasing the heat capacity each heatsink provides, rewarding people who invest in large amounts of sinks to keep high energy builds cool...at 20+ doubles, even IS doubles, I should not be feeling so much pain from just 2 or even 3 CHAINFIRED er ppcs.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 04 July 2014 - 02:45 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

Koniving, on 04 July 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

I have a very simple one.
How about linking the weapon types? Seriously PGI?
These are all referring to Clan weapons...

2 ER LL is safe. 3 ER LL gets ghost heat.
2 LPL is safe. 3 LPL gets ghost heat.
Makes some sense I guess.

But then PGI FAILS us.
These weapons are almost identical but...
2 ER LL + 2 LPL is safe, no ghost heat. Beam times are nearly identical, damage is nearly identical, range, well keep it under 600 and no one cares.....why are they NOT linked?

Here's another one, and this is freaking hilarious.
3 LRM-15s = ghost heat.
2 LRM-20s + LRM-15 = NO GHOST HEAT... WTF!?

3 UAC/10s is okay. 4 UAC/10s = ghost heat.
So build UAC/20 + 3 UAC/10s + 2 UAC/5s. No ghost heat.

.....really?

....Really?

I think we should just go to a lower threshold and throw ghost heat out the damn window.

lol yes ghost heat the way its implemented sucks, to many gaping big loop holes you can navigate a battleship through, its either got to be tightend up big time, or as you suggest drop it and lower the heat threshold

[pwnface]

I wish IS PPCs would have ramped up damage as well. It really makes no sense that at 89m it does ZERO damage and 1m later it does 10. It'd be kind of nice if the PPC EMP effect on ECM also disabled NARC temporarily as well. Friendly mechs could shoot you with a PPC to help mitigate the NARC at the risk of dealing some damage to your mech anyway.

Edited by pwnface, 04 July 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

Ronyn, on 04 July 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

They have the new quirks, why not just allow the Awesome it's own quirk that allows it to use 3 PPC's without heat penalty. Making all IS PPC's go to 3 would allow and force many 'Mechs to do what made the Awesome unique.

yups

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

xXBagheeraXx, on 04 July 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Half the capacity.

Buff sinks to 2.0.

Map temperature has 0 effect on your capacity, only dissapation. Capacity is determined by number and type of sinks.

Introduce more detrimental effects on overheating your mech such as damage to internals for keeping your reactor constantly redlined, resulting in more heat effecient builds rather than high alpha cram builds. This heat system wold have murdered 6x ppc stalkers before they even became a thing.

Edit: you could change that pilot buff to increasing the heat capacity each heatsink provides, rewarding people who invest in large amounts of sinks to keep high energy builds cool...at 20+ doubles, even IS doubles, I should not be feeling so much pain from just 2 or even 3 CHAINFIRED er ppcs.

Something like this?

To start, every HS (SHS, DHS, cDHS) gives the same +1 to heat limit.

SHS give -0.10 h/s. DHS and cDHS give -0.20 h/s.

Cool Run gives + 5% effectiveness [lowered slightly due to higher base dissipation rates for DHS overall] to HS (SHS becomes -0.105, DHS/cDHS becomes -0.21). At x2 Basics, they go to -0.11 and 0.22 respectively.

A build with 20 DHS would give -4.40 h/s. You'd need 40 SHS to match that. A single ERPPC gives +3.75 h/s. Assuming a threshold of 40 (20 base + 20 for the DHS), you'd still very quickly overheat with two ERPPCs, even on chain fire, unless you reduced their cycle time or their heat per shot. You'd be generating around 3.10 extra h/s (chain fire would help with the initial heat buildup but would not significantly change the heat over time generated by holding down the trigger). That gives you around 12.9s of group fire, slightly longer if you chain fire, and less if you are moving or firing anything else.

With 40 SHS you'd have half again that time due to the much larger capacity pool, but it'd cost you mightily in weight.

I have to think that any heat system overhaul like this would require an overall rework of weapon stats. I'd suggest starting with generally increased cycle times (slower overall rates of fire), as well as some tweaks to heat per shot. These might be combined with some mechanical changes to compensate if they become too strong or too weak based on the RoF and heat per shot changes.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 04 July 2014 - 03:06 PM.

[Koniving]

xXBagheeraXx, on 04 July 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Half the capacity.

Buff sinks to 2.0.

Half the capacity? Which capacity? MWO uses the first rising threshold system in the history of battletech and mechwarrior.

For example 10 SHS is 40 threshold, 10 SHS + elites is 50 threshold.
10 DHS with a 100 engine is 46.4 threshold.
10 DHS with a 250 engine is 50 threshold.
10 DHS with a 250 engine + elites is 60 threshold...
It's possible to exceed 100 threshold.

The problem just mounts and mounts and mounts...

Btw..
2.0 heatsinks would be a NERF.
I'm NOT kidding.

Tabletop: 16 DHS.
3.2/sec cooling, 30 threshold.

MWO: 16 DHS 250 engine. Elites.
3.266/sec cooling, 70.08 threshold.
(The sim says)
Cooling Rate : 3.27 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 70.08

Notice something wrong here?
But wait, we're not on Forest Colony, we're on Forest Colony Snow where the temperature dropped by a very tiny amount...
MWO: Forest Colony Snow, elites, 16 DHS.
Cooling Rate : 4.08 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 87.6

O_O

But wait, I just built a Clan mech with 2 ER LL and 2 LPL and stuffed the rest with heatsinks. 30 Clan DHS, 2 Clan ER LL, 2 Clan LPL!
30 DHS with elites.
Cooling Rate : 5.52 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 93.6

Now on Forest Colony

Cooling Rate : 6.90 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 117

....now 30 DHS on tabletop.
6.0/sec cooling.
Threshold: 30.

....Hmm...

[Koniving]

pwnface, on 04 July 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I wish IS PPCs would have ramped up damage as well. It really makes no sense that at 89m it does ZERO damage and 1m later it does 10. It'd be kind of nice if the PPC EMP effect on ECM also disabled NARC temporarily as well. Friendly mechs could shoot you with a PPC to help mitigate the NARC at the risk of dealing some damage to your mech anyway.

Failure to adhere to lore.
In Battletech, the reasoning for a PPC's 90 meter minimum range was an increased difficulty to hit a target at less than that range due to the long charge up delay that PPCs have. It was not a press and hold charge, but a press and shortly afterward it fires kind of charge up delay, causing the issues with accuracy at close range.

The charge up could be reduced to almost nothing by turning off the Field Inhibitor as this safety device prolongs and delays the charge up. Doing so however, would ramp the heat up to (was it 16 or 18 or 20? I can't recall) for a single shot, as well as risk the weapon exploding..

ER PPCs have a significantly lower charge up delay, which is the cause for the more intense heat. However it is considerably safer than a standard PPC.

(All of the above is lore-related, and PGI doesn't give a crap. Carry on and remember it's not in MWO.)
Charging samples.
PGI's very own MW5 concept as back-seat instructed by Jordan Weisman, co-founder of FASA and thusly Battletech.

Also notice: Automatic fire ACs. An autocannon that produced its total damage over x amount of time.

Jordan Weisman funded MW trailer. Note the PPC charge up.

Also notice: ZERO CONVERGENCE! O_O!
Rapid fire lasers, totaling 7 damage in x amount of time for Clan mediums.

>.>

Edited by Koniving, 04 July 2014 - 03:21 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Koniving, on 04 July 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Half the capacity? Which capacity? MWO uses the first rising threshold system in the history of battletech and mechwarrior.

That's somewhat disingenuous. Heat is only applied to the heat capacity of a mech after subtracting the per-turn dissipation of the heat sinks. Mechanically this is nearly identical to a rising threshold system where more heat sinks mean more room for heat before you start seeing any penalties. If anything, MWO's system is harsher, because it reduces the available threshold each time you fire, while the TT treats heat that took you within 1 point of the base threshold the same as heat that took you 5 points away from it, or 10 points.

The big point of division here is the time scale. TT was on a 10s scale, and MWO is on a mixed time scale. MWO heat sinks all operate on a 10s scale, but all the weapons have from 2-3 or more times higher rate of fire, and thus a consequently higher heat generation.

Way back in CB, I was recommending that PGI change the time scale on their heat sinks to approximate the boosted rates of fire for weapons. A 5s timescale for heat sinks would effectively double the cooling rate, but it would do so in a way more consistent with the weapon mechanics than the current system allows, and all through a trick of accounting.

Now, though, I'd rather see weapon cycle timers increased than heat sink dissipation timescales reduced.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Koniving, on 04 July 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

Failure to adhere to lore.
In Battletech, the reasoning for a PPC's 90 meter minimum range was an increased difficulty to hit a target at less than that range due to the long charge up delay that PPCs have. It was not a press and hold charge, but a press and shortly afterward it fires kind of charge up delay, causing the issues with accuracy at close range.

The charge up could be reduced to almost nothing by turning off the Field Inhibitor as this safety device prolongs and delays the charge up. Doing so however, would ramp the heat up to (was it 16 or 18 or 20? I can't recall) for a single shot, as well as risk the weapon exploding..

ER PPCs have a significantly lower charge up delay, which is the cause for the more intense heat. However it is considerably safer than a standard PPC.

(All of the above is lore-related, and PGI doesn't give a crap. Carry on and remember it's not in MWO.)
Charging samples.
PGI's very own MW5 concept as back-seat instructed by Jordan Weisman, co-founder of FASA and thusly Battletech.


Jordan Weisman funded MW trailer. Note the PPC charge up.

Also notice: ZERO CONVERGENCE! O_O!
Rapid fire lasers, totaling 7 damage in x amount of time for Clan mediums.

>.>

IIRC, PPC minimum range was indeed due to the field inhibitor, but the FI was intended to protect the firing mech from feedback damage. Someone could choose to fire a PPC inside its on-paper minimum, but doing so would risk damage to the mech using the weapon.

I'd love to see PPCs do full damage at all ranges, but inside 90m the damage is split between the firer and the target, with the ratio of the split based on how close to the target the firer is. Shots at 30m would do 6.7 damage to the PPC's mount location and 3.3 damage to the target.

[Koniving]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 04 July 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

That's somewhat disingenuous. Heat is only applied to the heat capacity of a mech after subtracting the per-turn dissipation of the heat sinks. Mechanically this is nearly identical to a rising threshold system where more heat sinks mean more room for heat before you start seeing any penalties.

Due to LACK of real time ability to do so.

Also it is NOT identical.

In TT Basic:
0 seconds. Fires 1 ER PPC. WHOOSH!. + 15 heat. (15) 50%.
1 second. -4. 11 heat.
2 seconds. -4. 7 heat.
3 seconds. -4. 3 heat. Fire 1 ER PPC. Whoosh + 15 heat. (18). 60%.
4 seconds. -4. 14 heat.
5 seconds - 4. 10 heat. Pilot's overzealous! Fire 1 ER PPC! Whoosh + 15 heat = 25 heat 83.33%!!! Ammo is cooking!
6 seconds - 4. 21 heat. 70%.
7 seconds - 4. 17 heat. 56.67%.
8 seconds - 4. 13 heat.
9 seconds - 4. 9 heat. Fire 1 ER PPC. Whoosh + 15 heat = 24 heat. 80%!
10 seconds -4. 20 heat. 66.67%.

In MWO:
4 ER PPCs = 60 heat.
20 DHS = With Buffing Elites: 3.91 heat dissipation per second. 76.8 threshold
Alpha strike.
60 heat generate instantly.
0 seconds FIRE ALL FOUR! + 60 heat!
78.125% threshold! No punishment! 60 damage alpha strike, ZOMG OP!
1 second. -3.91. 56.09 heat. 73.033854166667%.
2 seconds ||. 52.18 heat.
3 seconds ||. 48.27 heat.
4 seconds ||. 44.36 heat.
5 seconds ||. 40.45 heat. 52.669270833333%
6 seconds ||. 36.54 heat.
7 seconds ||. 32.63 heat.
8 seconds ||. 28.72 heat. 37.395833333333%(Remember how this was 93.33%?)
9 seconds ||. 24.81 heat.
10 seconds ||. 20.9 heat. 27.213541666667%(Remember how this was 66.67%?)

Notice something immediately wrong?

Far more detail on the subject (originally a response to another common Tabletop misinterpretation, "You don't shoot until you land when jumpjetting.") Contains an interpretation of a real time application of heat and movement penalties with the notion that you must sustain higher than x amount of heat for x amount of time to be punished. Also includes a demonstration of the ER PPC charge up mechanic, also squeezed in, and a REAL tabletop result that the breakdown was based on, using a Warhawk with Prime variant loadout. Unchanged.

Spoiler

Koniving, on 02 July 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Everything is accomplished within 10 seconds. And nothing is fired at the same time, otherwise all shots would hit or miss. You may notice you hit spots at random, with decreased chances to hit if both players are moving (you don't magically move, stop, then spend 10 seconds aiming).

Even in Solaris, you spend x seconds doing everything you do.

An example..
Lets take a Warhawk. Moves 6 hexes (120 meters).
Fires 4 ER PPCs.
Generates 62 heat, sinks 40 at 4 heat per second. 22 heat at the conclusion.
Real time breakdown.

Spoiler

Warhawk is moving at 64.8 kph, taking a 45 degree turn from the origin point that he was already at 64.8 kph from.

• 0 seconds to 1 second. ER PPC charge begins and ends in 0.5 seconds. 5 heat generated from charging an ER PPC. 0.2 heat generated (at the end of this second) from movement. 5.2 heat total as the first second concludes.
  
  • 1 second, 4 heat sunk, 1 heat left. ER PPC fires. Remaining 10 (of 15 total) heat generated. + 0.2 heat running movement = 11.4 heat. (38% heat of threshold!)
• 2 seconds, 4 heat sunk, 7.4 heat left. Adjusting aim and twist. Calculating firing solution. 0.2 heat generated from running movement. 7.6 heat total. First ER PPC misses.
  
  • 3 seconds, 4 heat sunk, 3.6 heat left. Charging second ER PPC + 5 heat. Fires in the same second, + 10 heat. + 0.2 heat generated from running. 18.8 heat. (62.67% of threshold. Warning: Level one shutdown risk of maintained. Pilot is sweating.)
• 4 seconds, 4 heat sunk, 14.8 heat left. Second ER PPC hits target HBK-4G Right Torso Rear (enemy armor destroyed, 1 internal structure remaining). + 0.2 heat for movement. 15 heat total (exactly 50% threshold).
  
  • 5 seconds, 4 heat sunk, 11 heat left. Cooling. Continues to twist to keep the target in sights. +0.2 heat for running. 11.2 heat total.
• 6 seconds, 4 heat sunk, 7.2 heat left (24% of threshold exactly) Adjusting aim. Charging third ER PPC in later half of second. + 5 heat. + 0.2 heat. 12.4 heat total (41.33% of threshold).
  
  • 7 seconds, 4 heat sunk, 8.4 heat left. Firing third ER PPC. + 10 heat + 0.2 heat for movement. 18.6 heat total. (62% of threshold exactly).
• 8 seconds, 4 heat sunk, 14.6 heat left. + 0.2 heat. = 14.8 heat total (49.33% of threshold). (Third ER PPC hits HBK left leg, 5 points of armor remaining.)
  
  • 9 seconds, 4 heat sunk, 10.8 heat left. Charges Fourth ER PPC + 5 heat. Fires in the same second + 10 heat. +0.2 movement heat. (10.8 + 5 + 10 + 0.2 = 26 heat).
• 10 seconds, 4 heat sunk, 22 heat left. (The 0.2 heat for movement was played out from 0 to 9 seconds rather than 1 to 10 seconds). Fourth ER PPC hits HBK 4G right leg, 5 points of armor remaining.)

In the end, it accomplished all 4 shots across 10 seconds, never hit 30 heat built up at any given time, never hit 100% heat. If the pilot had maintained over 15 heat (50%) for 3 seconds back to back, he'd have to try to hit override to prevent a shutdown. It'd also present the risk of an ammo explosion with 2 or so seconds back to back of being over 19 heat or 63.33% heat.

The total stats from tabletop (megamek).

Spoiler

Weapons fire for Masakari (Warhawk) Prime (Koniving)
ER PPC at Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot); needs 4, rolls 3 : misses

ER PPC at Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot); needs 4, rolls 9 : hits (using Rear table) RTR
Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot) takes 15 damage to RTR.
Armor destroyed, 1 Internal Structure remaining
Critical hit on RT. Roll is 7; no effect.

ER PPC at Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot); needs 4, rolls 9 : hits (using Rear table) LL
Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot) takes 15 damage to LL.
5 Armor remaining.

ER PPC at Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot); needs 4, rolls 9 : hits (using Rear table) RL
Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot) takes 15 damage to RL.
5 Armor remaining.
------------------------------------------
Masakari (Warhawk) Prime (Koniving) gains 62 heat, sinks 40 heat and is now at 22 heat.
Masakari (Warhawk) Prime (Koniving) needs a 8+ to avoid shutdown, rolls 8 : avoids successfully!
Masakari (Warhawk) Prime (Koniving) needs a 4+ to avoid ammo explosion, rolls 8 : avoids successfully!

In that 10 seconds, 6 hexes (180 meters) were travelled at 64.8 kph.

If the Warhawk had enough jumpjets to do 6 hexes of movement, in order to have time to fire at the end of the jump it'd have to travel at 129.6 kph, and even then it would only have 5 seconds to accomplish those shots; physically impossible to do in that time period without hitting 100% heat due to the rush of shots. Thus, the weapons must be fired during the airborne time as well.

10 seconds of jumpjet followed by instant firing isn't careful aim. It's 10 seconds to do everything.

And since an alpha strike is impossible, and in fact unheard of until the Battletech 32 player simpits around 1993, it became an official term in time for Mechwarrior 2 as a rarely used last ditch effort to fire everything; which typically resulted in a shut down, there is no way you'd fire all the weapons at the 10th second, as that'd be 60 heat with nothing dissipated. It's impossible.

Thus, you did in fact have to fire during the jump, though logically because of the inaccuracy you'd complete the jump (at which the next cycle of 10 seconds begins) then move, making your shots then when accuracy is much higher.

And here, tabletop, Dire Wolf.

Spoiler

Weapons fire for Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred)
ER Large Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 2 : misses


ER Large Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 3 : misses


Medium Pulse Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow - hits LA
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 8 damage to LA.
26 Armor remaining.


Medium Pulse Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow - hits CT
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 8 damage to CT.
38 Armor remaining.


Ultra AC/5 at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 7 :
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to RA.
29 Armor remaining.
fires a second burst in ultra mode.
Ultra AC/5 at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 7 :
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LL.
36 Armor remaining.


ER Large Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 2 : misses


ER Large Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 3 : misses


Medium Pulse Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 11 : - Direct Blow - hits LT
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 9 damage to LT.
23 Armor remaining.


Medium Pulse Laser at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 3, rolls 4 : hits CT
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 7 damage to CT.
31 Armor remaining.


Ultra AC/5 at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow -
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 6 damage to RA.
23 Armor remaining.
fires a second burst in ultra mode.
Ultra AC/5 at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 5 : - Glancing Blow -
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 2 damage to LA.
24 Armor remaining.


LRM 10 at King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving); needs 5, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow - 6 missile(s) hit (w/ +2 bonus).

King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LA.
19 Armor remaining.

King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) takes 1 damage to CT.
30 Armor remaining.

Results:
Remember that in Battletech tabletop, the concept of Alpha Strikes do not exist, it is not possible within standard or advanced rules to alpha strike, for you cannot have all weapons fire at exactly the same time. Instead you have them fire in series.

Spoiler

Heat Phase
-------------------
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) gains 73 heat, sinks 44 heat and is now at 29 heat.
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) needs a 5+ to avoid shutdown, rolls 9 : avoids successfully!
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) needs a 8+ to avoid ammo explosion, rolls 5 : fails to avoid explosion.
*** LRM 10 Ammo EXPLODES! 110 DAMAGE! ***
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) takes 110 damage to LT.
SECTION DESTROYED,
LIMB BLOWN OFF Left Arm blown off.
remaining 89 damage prevented by CASE.
Critical hit on LT. Roll is 6; no effect.

Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" takes 2 damage.
Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 6 : successful!

Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" needs a 5 to stay conscious. Rolls 7 : successful!

Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime needs a 6+ for coolant failure, rolls 8 : fails.
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime's coolant is now less effective.
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) gains 25 heat, sinks 20 heat and is now at 5 heat.
King Crab KGC-010 needs a 10+ for coolant failure, rolls 5 : avoids successfully!

Dire Wolf pilot gets injured, ammo explodes, managed to avoid a shutdown.. Note this whole thing transpired one weapon fired at a time, over 10 seconds.

But wait, wait wait wait wait... what's that? King Crab only fired 25 heat, gets a punishment roll after sinking 20 of it? But wait, in PGI's logic (and the logic of some who don't particularly look at the wording of rules) tabletop's 30 threshold + 20 SHS = 50 threshold? NOPE! It's 20 ACTIVE threshold for safety, and even though all 20 got sunk, the King Crab went over it by 5, with 5 left over at the end of 10 seconds... and the King Crab had to do a punishment roll check on heat penalties due to overtaxing the heatsinks in a 10 second period by generating 20 heat.

And all it fired was 2 ER large lasers (at 11 heat each), which was 2 PPCs 20 heat total, and 2 LB-10x while walking (moving at half speed). In 10 seconds. That's 25 heat. We do that Every freaking time we shoot like it's nothing in MWO.

In MWO... With a Dire Wolf Prime, you can do this with only a ghost heat penalty that just shuts you down. That's it. With no elites, and the 1.4 heatsinks (since, no elites) so no super DHS there as with elited mechs. And you simply shut down. Meh.
Seriously take a Dire Wolf Prime and try it.

It isn't even REMOTELY the same.

In table top you take the heat you generate in 10 seconds, and subtract it by what you can cool in 10 seconds.

That's not an increased threshold, that's you cooling second by second. We do that without it increasing our threshold.

Edited by Koniving, 04 July 2014 - 03:49 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

When I say "half capacity" I am simply ball parking it. I do not know the exact figures for heatsinks like you do, i dont even know where I could get that data, or i could even toss up some new heat numbers for the "problem weapons" like ppcs

I know from experience that in MOST of my mechs that carry er ppcs, two ppcs is about 40% to 50% heat. With half that capacity, that same shot could be nearly 80% heat, but dissapate MUCH faster, large quad and 6x ppc alphas would not be possible, but it would reward mechs like my Warhawk prime (27 doubles) or my awesome 8Q (21 I belive) that chainfire and pace thier ppc fire with much longer firing times before they have to cool off.

Most cold(er) running brawlers would benefit fromt his as well, And brawling mechs, especially IS ones could always use some loving.


@Levi remember back in beta when all projectiles had a slight firing delay on them? I wouldnt mind that delay being put in on ppcs IF it was actually in the lore and it means we can get rid of gauss charge laming and ghost heat. Good ppc fire would then require a lot of skill to land those shots, and adding skill to a weapon like that that puts all the damage in one section is always a good thing...

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 04 July 2014 - 03:37 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Are you using Solaris VII special rules or something, Koniving? Admittedly it's been a decade and a half since I last played TT, but there was no heat applied when you fired unless your total heat generated that turn surpassed your total dissipation, even when alpha striking would put you well over the insta-kill reactor death level of heat if it were straight-up applied as a lump sum to your heat meter.

[Koniving]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 04 July 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

IIRC, PPC minimum range was indeed due to the field inhibitor, but the FI was intended to protect the firing mech from feedback damage. Someone could choose to fire a PPC inside its on-paper minimum, but doing so would risk damage to the mech using the weapon.

Actually on tabletop, you have an additional to hit penalty due to minimum range (same with Gauss rifle).
It's possible to hit the target, but the difficulty for firing while stationary at a stationary target was the only way to do it and could still miss with no penalty.

Currently I'm in Megamek, 30 meters from my target with an Awesome 8Q.
I have a firing solution.
Field Inhibitor is ON (otherwise minimum range penalty is gone).
4 (gunnery skill) + 3 (minimum range) + 2 (attacker ran)
I must make a roll of 9 to hit.

My results...
Weapons fire for Awesome AWS-8Q (Koniving)
PPC at Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot); needs 9, rolls 7 : misses
PPC at Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot); needs 9, rolls 8 : misses
PPC at Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot); needs 9, rolls 10 : hits LA
Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot) takes 10 damage to LA.
6 Armor remaining.
Small Laser at Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot); needs 6, rolls 8 : hits RA
Hunchback HBK-4G (TestBot) takes 3 damage to RA.
13 Armor remaining.

(Edit: Megamek's formating sucks...)
No penalty, no risk. Target at 30 meters, Field Inhibitor is on. Target is just VERY difficult to hit due to the charge mechanic while field inhibitors are turned on, since they can simply dodge.

Under heat I generated 33 heat (3 PPCs at 10 each, 1 Small, had to climb a hill with my arms so +2 for movement despite only moving 60 meters).
Since I did not generate 5 more heat than my heatsinks could sink across ten seconds, I have no coolant penalty rolls. I rest at 3 out of 30 threshold at the end of 10 seconds, which is 10% heat.

So, it's not that the PPC is weaker or the field inhibitor HAD to be turned off. It's the charge up that could lead to missing.

Edited by Koniving, 04 July 2014 - 04:10 PM.

[Mystere]

xXBagheeraXx, on 04 July 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

Is acs should be burst fire but with shorter bursts...like 3 or even 2 per shot and shorter time between bursts. THey also need a velocity buff.

My only issue with this suggestion is that it makes IS weapons look more advanced than Clan weapons, which is the exact opposite of what the respective techs should be.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Mystere, on 04 July 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

My only issue with this suggestion is that it makes IS weapons look more advanced than Clan weapons, which is the exact opposite of what the respective techs should be.

Is weapons are supposed to be burst fire anyway.

Ive started reading some of the Bt novels, the Victor's ac20?

ITS SUPPOSED TO FIRE 16 SHELLS PER SHOT. SIXTEEN....making us fire 2 or 3 shells isnt that much of a penatly.

You still keep the is advantage of good front loaded cannons, but breaking the ppc ac5 meta somewhat, while keeping the IS with thier own frontloaded flavor if you will.

Clans still have the advantage of lighter smaller cannons, alowing more of them to be crammed on heavies and assaults in numbers and locations IS mechs cannot, thier payment for it? longer bursts, and longer beam durations meaning more damage spread. Pinpoint damage is one of the major QQs of this game and burst fire on is weapons will help with that quite a bit. One of the reasons why I'm having a lot of problems with a Dakka build dire wolf is the long time i have to stare at my targets to get all that damage into them...THIS IS A GOOD THING. FRUSTRATING BUT GOOD.

Can you imagine the carnage when the mauler gets here and can easily boat quad uac5's? with one shot 5 damage shells? You think people crying about dakka dire wolves now, that's gonna be the mech that wrecks you.

Plus along with the burst fire, I would also like to see a buff on IS ac10s and 20s...thier shell velocity is freaking sad, ESPECIALLY the ac10's. They should not be that slow.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 04 July 2014 - 05:25 PM.

[Koniving]

xXBagheeraXx, on 04 July 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

Deathlike, on 04 July 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Ghost heat not working on Clan Tech?
Good job Paul...

So anyway as I said.
Vid. Recorded yesterday while playing with IraqiWalker for the first time. This is several matches in when I learned that apparently PGI put ghost heat on Clan LRMs. And I'm like, "No they haven't. I'm using 3 LRMs right now." And he's like "Yes they have, it's in the patch notes, they tied the LRMs together." So I pop out, and I compare my two builds, and it's like "...wow. Inconsistent much?" Told him, then I hit record and told you (the viewers).

[Cyborne Elemental]

Something needs to be done to bridge the gap...

Not that there was much balance before the Clan release, but now its pretty lopsided.

Something needs to change, figured my 1st post ideas were pretty on target without having to change much.

[ThermidorFallen]

Koniving, on 04 July 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Wish they'd just throw ghost heat out and go to a lower threshold. 30 too low? Try 40 or 50 and lock it there. No skill tree buff to raise it by 20% (I mean seriously?)

Only problem with that is we'd have another skill in the tree that's a placeholder XD