74 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ok honestly, I realize that the Clan version of ER LLs and Pulse Lasers have alot more range than IS versions but seriously, an extra few hundred meters, useful ONLY on occasion on Alpine is not a big enough advantage to justify a 50% or greater burn time.

First of all, if you do that math, you find that an IS ER LL can fire 3 times for 27 damage in the same space of time that a Clan ER LL can fire twice for 22.5 damage. Additionally, a 1 second burn time means it is much easier to concentrate all 9 damage from each burst than it is for its Clan counterpart. I don't know the exact average but I sincerely doubt that the average duration anyone can hold a pulse targeted to a specific location on a moving and evading target is beyond .8 seconds. This means that each IS shot probably does around 7 damage to the targeted location before spreading where as with the Clan ER LL, your looking at only managing about 1/2 max damage, somewhere around 5.5 before spreading occurs.

Overall this means that for those few hundred, nearly useless meters in range, a Clan ER LL probably does 30% plus LESS damage overall than an IS ER LL in the vast majority of engagement.

Same can be said about the Pulse Lasers. IS Pulse Lasers have a duration of about half those of their Clan counterparts. This is a huge difference in effectiveness, again for only a few hundred meters in range.

Can someone please tell me how this is balanced?

Also, on the IS side of things, I always argued that Large Lasers and Large Pulse Lasers were better than PPCs simply because they were, if you were good at holding a pulse for 0.6 to 1.0 seconds. However, there is absolutely no comparison between the effectiveness of the Clan ER PPC and the Clan ER-LL or Clan LPL due to the disadvantage of such an extended pulse.

Now I understand with the range bonus, Clan weapons have to be given a disadvantage but right now the disadvantage is too much. What the values should be are as follows:

Clan ER-LL = Pulse duration reduced to 1.2, down from 1.5 which is still a 20% greater burn time than the IS version. Clan Pulse Lasers reduced to 0.9 which is still 33% greater than the IS version. This is reasonable and will at least then give the Clan ER-PPC a run for its money and give Clan pilots more useful options rather than just boating PPCs.

[FupDup]

I'm okay with the duration on the Clan ER lasers. The pulses, however, do definitely need a hefty duration reduction to make them useful compared to their ER laser counterparts (assuming that we wouldn't just give them a whole different mechanic, rather than just being a "modified laser").

[MischiefSC]

All pulse lasers, across the board, need something new/different. The current system for pulse lasers makes them useless by and large, IS and Clan. They're a bad tradeoff - more weight, more heat, insignificant reduction in burn time and fractional increase in damage along with a drastic reduction in range.

Just remove them. They're irritating to see in the weapons list, just replace them with a wonky face going LOL

It's every bit as effective and useful.

[Sephlock]

Dude, we're still waiting on that second balance pass for IS pulse lasers...

[Pjwned]

Viktor Drake, on 04 July 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

Now I understand with the range bonus, Clan weapons have to be given a disadvantage but right now the disadvantage is too much. What the values should be are as follows:

Clan ER-LL = Pulse duration reduced to 1.2, down from 1.5 which is still a 20% greater burn time than the IS version. Clan Pulse Lasers reduced to 0.9 which is still 33% greater than the IS version. This is reasonable and will at least then give the Clan ER-PPC a run for its money and give Clan pilots more useful options rather than just boating PPCs.

That's not reasonable because C-ER LL has more advantages than just range, they would need to be toned down in other ways too if the duration was lowered that much. In addition to more range the C-ER LL has more damage, less tonnage, and less crit slots than the IS version for the same amount of heat, so lowering its duration (without other nerfs anyway) would be a little ridiculous. If you're going to take such a long range weapon then try using it like one, there are plenty of opportunities to snipe at the enemy (safely, from very far away, for respectable damage) on almost any map and the extra range is not "only" useful on Alpine Peaks if you use it properly.

I do agree that the clan pulse lasers are rather weak though, they should be improved so that people have more options, especially since non-pulse lasers are only available as ER lasers for clans.

Edited by Pjwned, 04 July 2014 - 09:39 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Sephlock, on 04 July 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

Dude, we're still waiting on that second balance pass for IS pulse lasers...

Okay. That literally made me laugh out loud.

[Sephlock]

MischiefSC, on 04 July 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

Okay. That literally made me laugh out loud.

http://mwomercs.com/...nity-of-course/

[FupDup]

Sephlock, on 04 July 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

Dude, we're still waiting on that second balance pass for IS pulse lasers...

Speaking of which, I have a new (relevant) meme ready!




(The kid cowering is the Large Pulse Laser).

[ztac]

Range is not a huge issue as just about every battle ends up with close in fights (after LRM have killed half the enemy's mechs!).

[LordKnightFandragon]

Pjwned, on 04 July 2014 - 09:39 PM, said:

That's not reasonable because C-ER LL has more advantages than just range, they would need to be toned down in other ways too if the duration was lowered that much. In addition to more range the C-ER LL has more damage, less tonnage, and less crit slots than the IS version for the same amount of heat, so lowering its duration (without other nerfs anyway) would be a little ridiculous. If you're going to take such a long range weapon then try using it like one, there are plenty of opportunities to snipe at the enemy (safely, from very far away, for respectable damage) on almost any map and the extra range is not "only" useful on Alpine Peaks if you use it properly.

I do agree that the clan pulse lasers are rather weak though, they should be improved so that people have more options, especially since non-pulse lasers are only available as ER lasers for clans.

I would hand over the 1.3 and 1.8 damage on the current LL and LPL if it meant them getting a reduction in duration.

LL 10dmg, 8heat, 2.75CD, 1.2 Duration
LPL 10dmg, 8heat, 2.25CD, 1 Duration

[Khobai]

Quote

First of all, if you do that math, you find that an IS ER LL can fire 3 times for 27 damage in the same space of time that a Clan ER LL can fire twice for 22.5 damage. Additionally, a 1 second burn time means it is much easier to concentrate all 9 damage from each burst than it is for its Clan counterpart

CERLL = 4.75 cooldown + duration
ERLL = 4.25 cooldown + duration

So you can hardly fire the ERLL 3 times in the same amount of time it takes to fire the CERLL twice. That is a gross exaggeration. The real number is more like x2.25 times. Not even close to x3.

CERLL are also only 4 tons and 1 crit slot.

So its easily one of the top 3 energy weapons in the game.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Khobai, on 05 July 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

CERLL = 4.75 cooldown + duration
ERLL = 4.25 cooldown + duration

So you can hardly fire the ERLL 3 times in the same amount of time it takes to fire the CERLL twice. That is a gross exaggeration. The real number is more like x2.25 times. Not even close to x3.

CERLL are also only 4 tons and 1 crit slot.

So its easily one of the top 3 energy weapons in the game.

LL and LPL are 3.25CD lol...did they change?

[Jonny Taco]

Here is what I think they should do....

Increase c erml duration to 1.35 seconds (+.05)
decrease c erll duration to 1.35 seconds (-.15)
increase c erll heat to 9 heat (+.5)
decrease c lpl duration to 1.1 (-.2)


decrease is ml duration to .9 (-.1)
decrease is ll duration to .9 (-.1)
increase is ll range to 500m (+50m)
decrease is erll duration to .9 (-.1)
increase is erll range to 740m (+65m)
increase is lpl range to 400m (+50m)

The end result is a more normalized beam duration between clan medium and large lasers (like is present within the IS lineup) AND the IS ml now actually has a beam duration dps advantage over the c erml. The goal is to make all of these lasers more relevant compared to the cliche pin point fld meta that has been standard for well over a year while also making some of the is weapons slightly more balanced compared to their clan counter parts.

Edited by lartfor, 05 July 2014 - 04:25 AM.

[SmokinDave73]

Clan Large pulse lasers just need a decrease in burn time Clan ER's are fine. A one second burn time would be nice on the large pulse.

[Hellcat420]

er lasers are fine, pulse lasers need a slightly shorter burn time

[Xarian]

Just more evidence that players will complain about anything. I've seen half a dozen topics complaining that Clan ERLL are overpowered.

How about this: stop complaining.

That's it. No suggestions or insights. Just stop.

[Ultimax]

Just like IS Pulse lasers, the Clan Pulse Lasers are poorly implemented.

The Clan ER LLAS Burn time is too long, I'd rather it were higher heat to compensate for it's damage - but at 4 tons, and 1 slot it's not in a bad place overall (still usually better to just load up on cERMLAS though).

The cLPL just has no place really. At 6 tons the benefit over the cERLLAS is irrelevant.
Shaving off 0.2s burn time, but still being 1.3s, is not worth an extra 2 tons.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

cPLs in general need maybe 0.10-0.20s taken off their burn times, depending on type. cERLs are pretty much fine as they are.

PLs could stand a universal heat decrease and some combination of ~0.10s removed from the burn time and a little bit of extra damage added to their output, again, depending on type.

The SPL and SL, though, need one more thing. The SL needs to go to 120/240m, and the SPL needs to be 100/200m.

[Ovion]

I'll just leave this here:

[Angel of Annihilation]

Pjwned, on 04 July 2014 - 09:39 PM, said:

That's not reasonable because C-ER LL has more advantages than just range, they would need to be toned down in other ways too if the duration was lowered that much. In addition to more range the C-ER LL has more damage, less tonnage, and less crit slots than the IS version for the same amount of heat, so lowering its duration (without other nerfs anyway) would be a little ridiculous. If you're going to take such a long range weapon then try using it like one, there are plenty of opportunities to snipe at the enemy (safely, from very far away, for respectable damage) on almost any map and the extra range is not "only" useful on Alpine Peaks if you use it properly.

I do agree that the clan pulse lasers are rather weak though, they should be improved so that people have more options, especially since non-pulse lasers are only available as ER lasers for clans.

Well yes you are right but they are all superficial within the scope of the game. Smoke and mirrors if you will.

First advantage is range yet ask yourself how often you actually are fighting at 900m. The answer is very rarely, in fact I would guess 90% of the fights take place at under 500m. At those ranges, both the IS ER LL and the standard LL are superior to the Clan ER LL due to the lower burn duration.

Second advantage is damage. The Clan ER LL does 11.25 damage vs the IS ER LL doing only 9. However that damage is stretch out over 1.5 seconds vs 1.0 seconds on the IS Lasers. Now ask yourself how long the average person can hold a pulse on the CT of a moving enemy, while they are also moving. For me, based on my experience with IS lasers, I can typically hold the pulse for probably 75% of the 1.0 duration. That means on IS lasers, typically 25% of the damage is wasted, either spread across the enemy or missing entirely. Now take the Clan ER LL. My ability to hold the pulse is still going to be roughly 75% of a 1 second pulse but on the Clan ER LL that means half my damage is wasted. 75% of 9 damage is 6.75 damage. 50% of 11.25 is 5.6 damage. That is roughly a 20% advantage in damage to IS Large Lasers, which considering the range advantage of the Clan versions, might be ok, but it doesn't stop there. Since the Clan version has a 1.5 second burn time, this means the IS versions, with their 1 second burn time, start their cooldown much faster which translates into them firing faster as well as having a shorter pulse duration. A IS ER LL can fire 3 times for every 2 times a Clan ER LL can.

Lets add it up before moving on:

3 x 6.75 = 20.25 damage - IS ER LL over 3 seconds.
2 x 5.6 = 11.2 damage - CL ER LL over 3 seconds.

That is a hell of a difference in "usable" damage between the two versions.

Even if we say it is just as easy to hold a 1.5 second pulse as it is to hold a 1 second pulse, the IS version is still doing 27 damage vs the Clan version doing 22.5 damage over those 3 seconds. That is a huge disadvantage just to offset slightly ligher with an extended range that isn't even all that usable in the scope of the game.

This is just talking about the ER LL, not the Pulse lasers which in my opinion are even worse. I mean a 1.3 second pulse vs a 0.6 second pulse? Seriously? More than twice the pulse length? Yeah right.

Then lets talk about its balance against other Clan heavy weapons such as to ER PPC. With the IS weapons I could always argue that a LL or ER LL was comparable to an Inner Sphere PPC or ER PPC. You had pin point damage on the PPCs but you had relatively low pulse durations on the Lasers and they were much cooler meaning that overall someone good with a Laser could equal the performance of someone with a PPC. You can't argue that with the Clan versions. The Clan ER LL doesn't even remotely compete with the Clan ER PPC. However if you get the pulses down to a reasonable length, then you will reach parity and actually make PPCs optional rather than required for a heavy energy weapon choice.