74 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Clan ER's I am fine with, as they seem to be used to good effect, quite regularly.

Clan PUlse, despite a massive range advantage, are in combat, pretty much universally inferior to the IS versions because of the beam duration. I would KILL to mount IS MPLasers on my Nova. And a lot of my Brawler builds would even enjoy IS-LPLs (and those while usable, are still subpar in most cases) for the same reason.

I have several IS Mechs using LPLs and LB-10Xs in unison to devastating effect. Would LOVE to be able to slap an LB-10X, LPL and SRM6 on my summoner and have the combo be the worth of a ****.

[Bishop Steiner]

DAYLEET, on 05 July 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

Clan pulse large laser you cant compare them to the IS lasers.

this some new rule we don't know about?

I bloody well, can, and will.

[DAYLEET]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 July 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

this some new rule we don't know about?

I bloody well, can, and will.

yeah i compared them to large not er >< tried to hide the post before anyone comented, damn you again.

Edited by DAYLEET, 05 July 2014 - 08:31 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

DAYLEET, on 05 July 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

yeah i compared them to large not er >< tried to hide the post before anyone comented, damn you again.

okey dokey then

[Angel of Annihilation]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 July 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Clan ER's I am fine with, as they seem to be used to good effect, quite regularly.

Clan PUlse, despite a massive range advantage, are in combat, pretty much universally inferior to the IS versions because of the beam duration. I would KILL to mount IS MPLasers on my Nova. And a lot of my Brawler builds would even enjoy IS-LPLs (and those while usable, are still subpar in most cases) for the same reason.

I have several IS Mechs using LPLs and LB-10Xs in unison to devastating effect. Would LOVE to be able to slap an LB-10X, LPL and SRM6 on my summoner and have the combo be the worth of a ****.

Heya Bishop, been a long time since I took an extended break.

Anyway, from use, I just don't see the C-ER LL being useful. I mean my first impression of them was great. I was like, "Woah...its nice to be able to get damage at such long ranges.", and there were even times where they were super useful. But then I started noticing that in crunch time, when the fights got much shorter range, the disadvantages totally outweighed any advantage the extra range gave. In fact, I found I had a hell of alot of trouble killing mechs with them. I mean when you are seeing better performance with a T-bolt than a Timberwolf, there is a problem.

Now remember, this is coming from a guy that absolutely hates PPCs and has always been a huge advocate of lasers as the better alternative but with the Clans, all I am using is PPCs because the Clan ER-LL just can't get the job done. The Clan ER LLs just can't concentrate damage or fire follow up shots fast enough to be effective in 200-500m range most combat takes place in and the Pulse Lasers are worse considering they weight as much as a C-ER PPC.

So anyway, I guess if everyone just wants them to be a long range sniper weapon, I guess they work fine. However, I prefer options and diversity or as the term goes, comparable but different. Right now, a C-ER PPC and a C-ER LL are definitely different but aren't comparable so your forced to ER PPCs to be the most effective outside a specialized role. Also when your comparing against the IS versions, aside from range, the IS version are all superior and I would definitely prefer to mount IS ER LLs on my Timberwolf over mounting the mostly useless C-ER LLs I am stuck with. The straight truth is, the IS versions are just generally more useful and effective overall.

[Kitane]

The laser with largest reach ingame should have some real disadvantage.

For more practical ranges Clans already have their medium lasers, which are way better than IS laser technology.

[LordKnightFandragon]

PL would be cool and prolly worth something if they atleast had a cool down advantage over regular lasers.....

Would it really break em so much to give em half second faster CD? I mean, 2.75s CD vs 3.25? Atleast then, paried with the 1.3 vs 1.5 CD they would have a minor RoF advantage, which I still think should be more pronounced.

PL currently weigh more, take more spaces and have the downsides of a PL, with none of the benefits.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 July 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Clan PUlse, despite a massive range advantage, are in combat, pretty much universally inferior to the IS versions because of the beam duration.

Which is really saying something.


The cLPL is basically a heavier IS ER LLAS.

Does more damage (approx 30%), but requires longer burn time to do it (approx 30%) - it got "normalized".


Given the choice between a 6 ton psuedo "ER LLAS" and an cER PPC - my choice is cER PPC.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 July 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 05 July 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

Which is really saying something.


The cLPL is basically a heavier IS ER LLAS.

Does more damage (approx 30%), but requires longer burn time to do it (approx 30%) - it got "normalized".


Given the choice between a 6 ton psuedo "ER LLAS" and an cER PPC - my choice is cER PPC.

exactly the problem- Make them a tenth of a second longer than the IS Pulse duration, boost the damage, keep the same heat, and TBH, I think most pulse users would be fine if they had the same range as the IS version.

In TT they were simply superior in every way, right now, their stupendous burn times (and the C-MPLs insane heat) combined with their weight tax make them purely inferior, the range and damage bonuses being largely illusory.

[Pjwned]

Xarian, on 05 July 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Just more evidence that players will complain about anything. I've seen half a dozen topics complaining that Clan ERLL are overpowered.

How about this: stop complaining.

That's it. No suggestions or insights. Just stop.

They're not OP with their current beam duration, although the range is crazy and especially for a hitscan weapon.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 July 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

exactly the problem- Make them a tenth of a second longer than the IS Pulse duration, boost the damage, keep the same heat, and TBH, I think most pulse users would be fine if they had the same range as the IS version.

In TT they were simply superior in every way, right now, their stupendous burn times (and the C-MPLs insane heat) combined with their weight tax make them purely inferior, the range and damage bonuses being largely illusory.

Unfortunately I think Paul believes that PPCs are the highest skill required energy weapons.

So nothing is allowed to come close to their performance.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Kitane, on 05 July 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

The laser with largest reach ingame should have some real disadvantage.

For more practical ranges Clans already have their medium lasers, which are way better than IS laser technology.

But as I have pointed out again and again and again, the situations where you can actually use that range are very limited.

Let me give you a real world example. The 7.62mm round used by the M14 had a much greater range them the 5.56mm round used by the M16. In fact you could accurately hit with the 7.62mm round out to around 600m or further. This is two times or more greater range than the 5.56mm round. However, studies showed that most firefights took place at ranges under 250m and at that range, the 5.56mm round was pretty much just as good despite having a max effective range of only 300m. This was such an important realization that today, all modern Assault Rifles use the 5.56mm or a similar version to it.

Do you get the point now? If you are generally fighting in this game at under 500m which is normally the case, there is effectively no advantage to having a 900m range as oppose to a 675m range. In a nut shell, they are going to be equally effective at 500m as far as being able to hit their targets. The difference is how much better the IS lasers are at doing the hitting and concentrating damage than the Clan versions are. The extra few points of damage and range just don't make up for the fact that you can fire the IS Large Lasers 50% faster with the ability to insure more damage is concentrated where you need it to be.

[Pjwned]

Viktor Drake, on 05 July 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

But as I have pointed out again and again and again, the situations where you can actually use that range are very limited.

Let me give you a real world example. The 7.62mm round used by the M14 had a much greater range them the 5.56mm round used by the M16. In fact you could accurately hit with the 7.62mm round out to around 600m or further. This is two times or more greater range than the 5.56mm round. However, studies showed that most firefights took place at ranges under 250m and at that range, the 5.56mm round was pretty much just as good despite having a max effective range of only 300m. This was such an important realization that today, all modern Assault Rifles use the 5.56mm or a similar version to it.

Do you get the point now? If you are generally fighting in this game at under 500m which is normally the case, there is effectively no advantage to having a 900m range as oppose to a 675m range. In a nut shell, they are going to be equally effective at 500m as far as being able to hit their targets. The difference is how much better the IS lasers are at doing the hitting and concentrating damage than the Clan versions are. The extra few points of damage and range just don't make up for the fact that you can fire the IS Large Lasers 50% faster with the ability to insure more damage is concentrated where you need it to be.

It sounds like if you're not taking advantage of the very high range then you should use ER medium lasers instead, which are perfect for that range you seem to be talking about so much. I have a sniperhawk build that does reasonably well in matches and I often find myself firing at enemies that are very far away, and I would kill to have some of that range (and extra damage) even with a longer beam duration, and you can bet I'll be using those lasers when clan mechs are up for c-bills.

The C-ER large laser lets you stay at range and fire some hitscan weapons for good damage (even if the damage is spread out) and there are not many situations where you simply can't sit back at long range unless you get outmaneuvered by the enemy or something, at which point it's not the weapon's fault that you couldn't use it properly.

As for your "real world example" that's not really valid here because this is a video game and it's very possible (and viable) to shoot at enemy mechs from long range. If you don't find yourself firing at long ranges very often (even though, again, it is viable and useful) then don't take souped up long range weapons and then complain they're not the best fit for closer range combat.

The main problem is that if you want to use a clan large pulse laser they're too crappy to be worth considering really, but if your whole complaint is "I'm not taking advantage of this extreme range weapon because I sit at 500m or less away" then use another weapon system instead.

Edited by Pjwned, 05 July 2014 - 11:22 PM.

[Praehotec8]

Just a thought:

What if pulse lasers would pulse once with each trigger pull to a maximum of x (say five pulses as they currently are). Recharge begins once all have been fired, or after a certain amount of time has passed. This would allow you to fire them off very quickly if you had good aim, or hold fire briefly to re-align with the target prior to releasing the remaining pulses. Heck they could even be used in a brawl by allowing you to torso twist in between pulses.

Might not be a good idea, and will never happen, but it seemed interesting so I thought I would post it. All in all though, pulse lasers need just a bit more love to really shine for their increased tonnage.

[Black Ivan]

All Pulse Lasers in this game need a serious rework. They have no use at all beside on Meta builds

[FupDup]

Black Ivan, on 05 July 2014 - 11:06 PM, said:

All Pulse Lasers in this game need a serious rework. They have no use at all beside on Meta builds

Uh, Pulse Lasers aren't meta.

[Kitane]

Viktor Drake, on 05 July 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

But as I have pointed out again and again and again, the situations where you can actually use that range are very limited.

Let me give you a real world example. The 7.62mm round used by the M14 had a much greater range them the 5.56mm round used by the M16. In fact you could accurately hit with the 7.62mm round out to around 600m or further. This is two times or more greater range than the 5.56mm round. However, studies showed that most firefights took place at ranges under 250m and at that range, the 5.56mm round was pretty much just as good despite having a max effective range of only 300m. This was such an important realization that today, all modern Assault Rifles use the 5.56mm or a similar version to it.

Do you get the point now? If you are generally fighting in this game at under 500m which is normally the case, there is effectively no advantage to having a 900m range as oppose to a 675m range. In a nut shell, they are going to be equally effective at 500m as far as being able to hit their targets. The difference is how much better the IS lasers are at doing the hitting and concentrating damage than the Clan versions are. The extra few points of damage and range just don't make up for the fact that you can fire the IS Large Lasers 50% faster with the ability to insure more damage is concentrated where you need it to be.

If I am generally fighting at range under 500m, then I am not going to be concerned with performance of CER LL, because it's not a weapon designed for this range and I have better options.

CER LL is useful when I want to reach out to that target at 750-1500m. It's the weapon with the longest default reach in the game and it can be buffed even further. It's irrational to expect this weapon to be universaly good at all distances, I don't want a second coming of ER-PPC spam on everything.

[Yumemi79]

Viktor Drake, on 04 July 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

Ok honestly, I realize that the Clan version of ER LLs and Pulse Lasers have alot more range than IS versions but seriously, an extra few hundred meters, useful ONLY on occasion on Alpine is not a big enough advantage to justify a 50% or greater burn time.

First of all, if you do that math, you find that an IS ER LL can fire 3 times for 27 damage in the same space of time that a Clan ER LL can fire twice for 22.5 damage. Additionally, a 1 second burn time means it is much easier to concentrate all 9 damage from each burst than it is for its Clan counterpart. I don't know the exact average but I sincerely doubt that the average duration anyone can hold a pulse targeted to a specific location on a moving and evading target is beyond .8 seconds. This means that each IS shot probably does around 7 damage to the targeted location before spreading where as with the Clan ER LL, your looking at only managing about 1/2 max damage, somewhere around 5.5 before spreading occurs.

Overall this means that for those few hundred, nearly useless meters in range, a Clan ER LL probably does 30% plus LESS damage overall than an IS ER LL in the vast majority of engagement.

Same can be said about the Pulse Lasers. IS Pulse Lasers have a duration of about half those of their Clan counterparts. This is a huge difference in effectiveness, again for only a few hundred meters in range.

Can someone please tell me how this is balanced?

Also, on the IS side of things, I always argued that Large Lasers and Large Pulse Lasers were better than PPCs simply because they were, if you were good at holding a pulse for 0.6 to 1.0 seconds. However, there is absolutely no comparison between the effectiveness of the Clan ER PPC and the Clan ER-LL or Clan LPL due to the disadvantage of such an extended pulse.

Now I understand with the range bonus, Clan weapons have to be given a disadvantage but right now the disadvantage is too much. What the values should be are as follows:

Clan ER-LL = Pulse duration reduced to 1.2, down from 1.5 which is still a 20% greater burn time than the IS version. Clan Pulse Lasers reduced to 0.9 which is still 33% greater than the IS version. This is reasonable and will at least then give the Clan ER-PPC a run for its money and give Clan pilots more useful options rather than just boating PPCs.

Milk maid calculation...ever testet a mech with either 4x ERLRG or 4xLrg Lasers? You will notice the increase in damage at the end of the match by not only the further reach, but mainly by the greater max damage range before it tunes down.

Please don´t add Heat to the argument, as Clan sinks use up 2/3 of the IS space and you can fit them where IS can´t.

[BoomDog]

I think you're dramatically underestimating the advantage of all that range. You do realize the Clan's Medium Pulse Laser has more range than the IS Large Pulse laser?

A better comparison would be two C-MPL vs. one IS-LPL.

Clan DPS=3.80 ... IS DPS=2.75
Clan HPS=2.82 ... IS HPS=2.08
Clan Dur=0.90 ... IS DUR=0.60
Clan Tons=4 ... IS Tons=7
Clan Crit=2 ... IS Crit=2

So you get about 40% more DPS, more range, and 3 extra tons for whatever you want. All for about 30% more heat and a 50% longer burn time.

Sounds about right to me.

[Radical eliminator]

Pulse lasers could easily be made better by allowing them to fire like UAC does. Thus two to five intense bursts of energy (depending on small/med/large). That way good chunks hit or miss, instead of acting like a sped up beam laser doing damage all over the place.